Water Manipulation Precontest

[TooPowerful4u]

I have tried quite a few methods of water manipulation and I have to say the best one for me has been a taper method, tapering down gradually from the start of carbing up, after fully carbing up I then dry out, it is hard to do both as when carbing up you need to draw water into the muscles but if you are using diuretics this is flushing water out, so hitting diuretics in the final stage allows you to be full but then pull interstitial water out without dehydrating the muscles, it takes a bit of tweaking to get the timing right but it can work very well.

If i base it on general consensus, i would without a doubt have to heavily favor the taper method. For every 1 person who ran their water high and looked awesome, there was 10 i talked to who tapered. Now WHY does this work? .... OK, lets analyze this and see what conclusion we can draw... everyone and anyone knowledgable feel free to comment or correct me if you disagree.....

my thoughts, could be right or wrong.............
When you load water you are lowering aldesterone levels. This keeps water flying through you and lowers the amount of water your body is used to holding. If you keep your carbs low at this point, it will be FLYING through your body. Now on Thursday you cut the water in half and slightly lower sodium when you start your load heavily. This will still leave SOME sodium and SOME water present to load up carbs. You will start to rebound, but you are not allowing your body enough water/sodium to do ANYTHING except load up the carbs your muscles are starved (which from depletion makes them much easier to load with increased insulin sensativity). The rebound should also help with supercompensation within the muscles of sodium/water. Now on Friday you cut back sodium+water further, since your body will be heavily rebounding, and only allow it JUST enough to fill out the muscles further. At this point you should almost be full and not need so many carbs and the sodium and water is not as necessary since you are almost fully loaded. Due to the rebound, you are holding sodium and water inside the muscles and there is no need to RE-introduce it the day of the show. You should be full, hard, dry, and vascular. If needed, you can use a small amount of diazyde to pull a little water, or the morning of add a tiny bit of sodium to boost blood pressure and pop those veins out.

This seems like a slower process, giving you much more time to make adjustments and hit your peak with more precision.

 

[finephysique]

Most guys I know use a taper to good effect.

I have to say when I used the taper I was very nervous it is designed to0 get you into condition in a matter of hours before the competition, I stopped my water at 8 the evening before the show and was holding a lot of water I then hit some diuretics and was pissin through the night. I go very easy on the diuretics as you should be fairly dry anyway, a little vitargo mixed in a thick paste helps draw a little water out from under the skin too.

I have to say sodium manipulation is something I still have not really nailed, I know it can work well but it can mess a physique up just as quickly, I like Troponins theories on sodium manipulation it seems to make more sense than any other theory.

 

[FutureFreak]

i dont know for a fact and am only speculating but.....
it looks like the reason dennis james keeps missing his peak is due to last min, adjustments. there was pics posted on another board and we all know he is a freakin beast 1 week out and in 6 days completly looses everything. if he kept everything the same he would be onstage looking like he does in the gym. harder and fuller.
lucian

these are pics 2 weeks out.

Once again, I am in complete agreement here. Here's something else to consider when playing it safe and coasting in with minor adjustments. We like how we look a week out at the gym mirrors, our bathroom etc... hard, full and vascular. We think, damn I should roll into the show like this? I have heard "guru's" say that chances are you will actually appear "watery and smooth" under stage lights if you carried that condition to the stage. Basically stating that everyone looks great by themselves in their bathroom mirrors. Hmm....I beg to differ, when you see cross veins across your entire arms, quads and everything is paperthin, I doubt you would look watery and smooth given your actually in shape. Maybe the guru's want you to have to rely on their "expertise" to guide you into a "non watery, smooth" condition. I mean, if you didnt manipulate, they would not have much to be accountable for and wouldnt be needed.

 

[Skip]

Sodium is terribly misunderstood by most when it comes to conditioning.

Skip

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Sodium is terribly misunderstood by most when it comes to conditioning.

Skip

Havent seen you around in a long time. Hopefully your not still sore at me (and congrats on your boy chris winning the HWT in calorado). Iv learned a damn lot through reading your posts and talking to you.

Well anyway.... i like to think iv learned a lot over the years (god knows iv made enough mistakes)... and i think i got a good understanding of how things work. I dont think iv made any mistakes as far as sodium. If i have, anyone feel free to put me in my place with any mistakes i have made....

 

[BigWilly]

I'm starting to wonder if I should even do ANYTHING in the final week...I seem to just get flat and then it's too late to fill up.

 

[Skip]

Havent seen you around in a long time. Hopefully your not still sore at me (and congrats on your boy chris winning the HWT in calorado). Iv learned a damn lot through reading your posts and talking to you.

Well anyway.... i like to think iv learned a lot over the years (god knows iv made enough mistakes)... and i think i got a good understanding of how things work. I dont think iv made any mistakes as far as sodium. If i have, anyone feel free to put me in my place with any mistakes i have made....

Sore? No, I'm not sore at all. Did I forget something? lol

Hell, it took me a while to get over the sodium bullshit that is implanted into all of our heads by the Weider publications, too. You can use traditional sodium protocol and for some it will work and work very well. For most, though, it flattens you out very quickly. I know since changing my protocol for sodium and water my guys are coming in much more consistently and the end result is much easier to predict and implement. The name of the game is simplicity and limiting variables as much as possible. Whether the outcome is good or bad, when variables are limited it is much easier to see what worked and what didn't instead of sitting back and scratching your head wondering what in the fuck happened.

BW - You may well be right, I don't know how complicated or simple Trop's plan is but I will say in defense of Trop that even though things may not have gone as planned for whatever reason, he is very good and I would imagine that the changes that you would need may well be very subtle ones. Sometimes, just a couple minor shifts to the last 24 hours can pull everything into place 100%. Just my two cents, bro.

Skip

 

[bulldog21]

I'm starting to wonder if I should even do ANYTHING in the final week...I seem to just get flat and then it's too late to fill up.

Looking at six days out pics and pics from my show sometimes I think the same thigns too.....I just don't know....

 

[TooPowerful4u]

my thoughts, could be right or wrong.............
When you load water you are lowering aldesterone levels. This keeps water flying through you and lowers the amount of water your body is used to holding. If you keep your carbs low at this point, it will be FLYING through your body. Now on Thursday you cut the water in half and slightly lower sodium when you start your load heavily. This will still leave SOME sodium and SOME water present to load up carbs. You will start to rebound, but you are not allowing your body enough water/sodium to do ANYTHING except load up the carbs your muscles are starved (which from depletion makes them much easier to load with increased insulin sensativity). The rebound should also help with supercompensation within the muscles of sodium/water. Now on Friday you cut back sodium+water further, since your body will be heavily rebounding, and only allow it JUST enough to fill out the muscles further. At this point you should almost be full and not need so many carbs and the sodium and water is not as necessary since you are almost fully loaded. Due to the rebound, you are holding sodium and water inside the muscles and there is no need to RE-introduce it the day of the show. You should be full, hard, dry, and vascular. If needed, you can use a small amount of diazyde to pull a little water, or the morning of add a tiny bit of sodium to boost blood pressure and pop those veins out.

This seems like a slower process, giving you much more time to make adjustments and hit your peak with more precision.

Ok, maybe il draw this out now so you can see what i meant, then maybe read back for the reasoning if you feel the need.... id like to see some comments on this.......

Mon - 2 gallons. Carb deplete (no specifics, it depends on the diet and person how and how low). Sodium normal.
Tues - 2.5 gallons. Carb deplete. Sodium normal.
Wed - 3 gallons. Carb Deplete (maybe start load late in the day if necessary, again it depends on the person. I feel it would be best to start the next day, as you will be more carb sensative and will pull all existing water/sodium intramuscular). Sodium normal.
Thurs- 1.5 gallons. Carb load Heavy(GI is dependant on person). Sodium in half.
Fri - Water in half again and cut it around bedtime. Carb load moderate, as you should almost be full. Sodium in half again. Diazyde if necessary.
Sat - Sips of water here and there small amount. Reintroduce sodium? Im not sure, possibly if needed for a tiny boost. Carbs would be dependant on person again how and when and if. I prefer to go on stage hungry. This insures your stomach is flat, your waist is small, and you contract your abs hard.

Lets hear some thoughts!!

Again, lets emphasize you cant follow this to a T, adjustments are always needed to be made, its up to you to decide what is going on in the mirror and what is needed. This is what makes great conditioned bodybuilder, ability to access the situation and adjust accordintly.

 

[Skip]

My first question is:

Why deplete?

Every single thing you do in a prep phase - especially the last week - you need to be able to justify. Otherwise, it should not be done. So, how do you justify the carb deplete?

Questions are far more fun than just giving answers or opinions. : )

Skip

 

[Skip]

.... I still looked better Sunday morning which tells me that I either need to increase my carbs, or start my carb load a day earlier (tuesday).

I do not know your particular situation but I would ask you to read your statement above and then instead of focusing on carbs at all, take a long, hard look at whether you had enough WATER instead of carbs. I have said this over and over for a long time: Too many guys look to their carb intake when they are too flat or too watery and that should not be the first place you look. 95% of the time the issue is not at all carb related but rather water related. Again, I don't know your situation so you might fall into that small group that needed more carbs but I would BET that if you look hard enough you will find you were too low on fluid somewhere, somehow.

Skip

 

[bigfatandugly]

What about guys running keto diets. I don't understand the depletion workouts when you've been on a keto diet for several months. You are already depleted. Any thoughts?
.

i'm keto right now and have been without a re-feed for 4 weeks.

depletion workouts are absolutely not necessary in terms of glycogen in the last week to cause a rebound.

as for carb up im starting tomorrow am. i opted for a one day. i have my conditioning right where i want it, so im not going to f**k around with complicated carb up schemes. 40 grams over 6 meals alongside my regular meals of protein/ fat.

honestly on this keto diet i still always feel full. i would have no problem getting on stage feeling this way, so im not going to chance anything and keep it kinda simple. fats very much agree with me. i find carbs way to hard to control.

for me, in so far as the way my body responds, keto is the way to go precontest.


BFU.

 

[bigfatandugly]

I do not know your particular situation but I would ask you to read your statement above and then instead of focusing on carbs at all, take a long, hard look at whether you had enough WATER instead of carbs. I have said this over and over for a long time: Too many guys look to their carb intake when they are too flat or too watery and that should not be the first place you look. 95% of the time the issue is not at all carb related but rather water related. Again, I don't know your situation so you might fall into that small group that needed more carbs but I would BET that if you look hard enough you will find you were too low on fluid somewhere, somehow.

Skip

agreed. from the way your post reads, you cutting out your water (and using diazide) thursday nite before a saturday show.

skip is bang on- its a water related issue, not a 'carb up' one.

this off-season try that same carb up if you found it good for filling you out well, but push your water manipulation back a full 24 hours and see what happens.


BFU

 

[norm1220]

I've been doing this stuff for a while now, competing on and off since the eighties. Now I don't know the science as well as some of you, but I do know that what I did this April brought me in drier than ever before.

I used the dandilion root (taraxatone)because I don't know the first thing about the perscription diuretics and don't have a connection for them.

W - 2.5 gallons water, dandilion root

Th - 2.5 gallons water, dandilion root

F - 2.5 gallons water (just under because water was cut at 9 pm), dandilion root

Sat - 5 AM until NOON shitload & no water, no dandilion root



The only problem I had was that around 4:00 AM my quads hit me with cramps so bad I fell out of bed. After rolling around on the floor for about an hour, I got my girlfriend to get me some bananas and started my carb up a couple of hours earlier than planned.

 

[oldfella]

I'm starting to wonder if I should even do ANYTHING in the final week...I seem to just get flat and then it's too late to fill up.

Now BW you are oon to something. my ex asked this very same question. You looked incredible 1 week out. So why do we feel the need to go and do all this crap that either spills us over or flattens us out. I have made up my mind that this time around I will do just that. Keep doing what is already working and just do my fried rice thing the night before the show.
I too have been exactly where you were one week out. Then went through carb depletion and carb load as per usual protocols. Then dropped water the night before the show and flattened out on the day. My ex asks me what happened.............I dunno was the response. Well if the body is in a state of proper hydration levels it is performing optimally, why upset this. Just add in some fat and carbs the night before and bang........full hard and dry. I'm with your thoughts here BW........if it aint broke.......don't fix it!! I'm really glad you posted that!!! Really glad .

 

[Skip]

Now BW you are oon to something. my ex asked this very same question. You looked incredible 1 week out. So why do we feel the need to go and do all this crap that either spills us over or flattens us out. I have made up my mind that this time around I will do just that. Keep doing what is already working and just do my fried rice thing the night before the show.
I too have been exactly where you were one week out. Then went through carb depletion and carb load as per usual protocols. Then dropped water the night before the show and flattened out on the day. My ex asks me what happened.............I dunno was the response. Well if the body is in a state of proper hydration levels it is performing optimally, why upset this. Just add in some fat and carbs the night before and bang........full hard and dry. I'm with your thoughts here BW........if it aint broke.......don't fix it!! I'm really glad you posted that!!! Really glad .

Truer words have not been spoken. : )

BFU - no diazide here. I don't use any diuretics unless something goes awry and for some weird reason things aren't happening fast enough. Not that diazide is a bad idea but I don't use it. 10% of the time I will have a client that I need to clean up at the last minute.

Skip

 

[TooPowerful4u]

My first question is:

Why deplete?

Every single thing you do in a prep phase - especially the last week - you need to be able to justify. Otherwise, it should not be done. So, how do you justify the carb deplete?

Questions are far more fun than just giving answers or opinions. : )

Skip

Very true, questions make people THINK and justify their reasoning... and like you said.... EVERYTHING should be justified so....

Why deplete? I stated that the depletion is optional depending on the person. If they had been low carb all along, they are already depleted. But ... starting your carb up in a depleted state (however you get there)... heres my reasoning...........

First off, based on experience i have personally seen you can be SUPERCOMPENSATED size wise as far as fullness. Some say super full isnt the way to go, but i feel i looked bigger and rounder and more seperated than ever this way. Complete control over my muscles as if i has an enhanced mind muscle connection like never before.... with that possibility in mind....
The depletion is to cause your body to CRAVE the carbs, as your carbs are going to assist you in loading what is REALLY important and REALLY responsible for your fullness... WATER! Carbs are not going to make you full, but they bring 2.7g of water with them into the muscle and THAT takes up a hell of a lot of room. If you can get your body to hold say for the sake of arguement an extra 10g carbs in your biceps. That will be another 27.1g of water along with it which will blow them the fuck up above what they normally look like. This IS possible, but only if you can put your muscles in a depleted(craving) state. This will make them want to hold EXTRA stores in kind of a survival mode/rebound type fashion. If you are not depleted, there is no way your body will feel the need to pull in anything extra.

ADDITIONALLY.... you could just do it the way everyone is stating above and play it conservative. Just stay full and dry out. This is the play it safe conservative approach that shouldnt be too hard to hit, but will not have the extreme effect loading will......

Now being that iv been on both sides of the spectrum, and both times the day after my show i woke up and couldnt stop flexing and looking in the mirror all day. My HONEST TO GOD thoughts all day were, holy hell i did not even imagine i could look like this. I honestly did not ever see myself looking like that, bodyparts striating like that, skin tight like that, veins everywhere... i swear i honestly did not know i could attain that. Now seeing that i could attain that, i can NEVER settle for the conservative approach, i can never settle for less than the best i can possibly be.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

I do not know your particular situation but I would ask you to read your statement above and then instead of focusing on carbs at all, take a long, hard look at whether you had enough WATER instead of carbs. I have said this over and over for a long time: Too many guys look to their carb intake when they are too flat or too watery and that should not be the first place you look. 95% of the time the issue is not at all carb related but rather water related. Again, I don't know your situation so you might fall into that small group that needed more carbs but I would BET that if you look hard enough you will find you were too low on fluid somewhere, somehow.

Skip

This is probably one of the most important lessons iv ever learned from you, it just took me a while to learn it .

Too many times have i looked in the mirror and thought, im flat i need more carbs. I was not flat becuase i needed more carbs, i was flat becuase i didnt take into consideration i dropped 10lbs of water within the last day!

Too Many times have i looked in the mirror and said shit im watery i need a diuretic. I did NOT need a diuretic, my skin was loose and i appeared watery because of lack of fullness and muscles pressing against the skin. This was AGAIN, not due to carbs, but due to lack of water. Again, did not take into consideration how diuretic sensative i am and i lost 10lbs in the last day.

il day again that aldactone is horrible unless you are ALREADY peaked. If you flatten out because of water and have aldactone in your system, well my friend, your fucked until it wears off. Your not loading any water until its gone.

WATER creates fullness, carbs just assist (along with sodium) in getting it where it needs to be! INSIDE THE MUSCLES! Just be sure that there is JUST enough to get those muscles full, and none extra to sit outside the cell...

Let me quote a very smart prep guy by saying......

ITS WATER MUNIPULATION AND CONTROL, NOT DEPLETION (not sure its exact but its close haha )

 

[Skip]

OOOOHhhhh.... Flattery will get you everywhere. lol

Skip

 

[Skip]

I just want to be clear that I don't fall into the "conservative" category unless it is a "stepup" show meaning there is another coming in a couple weeks. I know some have heard me say in the past that you NEVER get on stage at less than 100% but I have since changed this philosophy for those that have shows 3 or less weeks away.

I am all for going for that unattainable look but if you can't hit it but 1 out of 10 times, my guys are going to beat you 9 of those times because my approach is so consistent. TP4U, can you replicate that condition? If you can, very cool. If it was a crapshoot because you can't recall all of the variables and play out the same scenario again then it is basically useless. I am all about freaky but if you have a ton of variables good luck replicating it. I an genuinely curious, can you?

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