IGF levels on 4iu serostim (bloodwork inside)

[Mike28]

I want to add something to what I touched upon earlier. This may help some of you younger guys understand things better.

In the early to mid 2000's there was not a lot of generic GH and real Jintropins were all over the place. They were cheap too, around $2.30 an iu. You guys can do the research, but I don't think you will find many people that won't tell you that Jintropin was top notch, high quality GH; it was also made in China. Unfortunately the owners were a little too loose with their shipping and they got in trouble, which is why real Jintropin on the black market is a thing of the past. The same people that brought you the inexpensive, high qualtiy, Chinese Jintropin are some of the same people that then formed Hygene Pharma and manufactured Hygetropin. And it was one of the Hygetropin factories that up until a little over a year ago that produced a large portion of the generic Chinese GH's.

In addition, back in the early to mid 2000's, Serostim was much more readily available, as it was not under such tight lock and key back then. In fact, the price was between $3-4 per iu.

So here we are 10-15 years later and people are saying things like; "China doesn't have the technology to make real GH", "The Chinese GH must contain peptides because it is too cheap to be real GH", "How can they produce GH so cheap when pharma GH is so expensive, it can't be real". However, once you understand the history it should be a lot easier to understand that China has the capability to make quality GH and at a very inexpensive price. In fact they have been doing it for a long time.

I don't think that is what people are saying. It's not that they can't produce it, it's that they often scam people and produce low quality products to make a quick extra buck. They do this with legal products like baby formula. Hong Kong had no baby formula on the shelves bc Chinese didn't trust their domestic brands. They went to HK and bought it all up.

So am I supposed to trust black market GH from there?

Again, a sponsor had problems with the Chinese end and put in a lot of work to start producing his own. Moved the operation out of China and controls it himself. From the threads on here and my own experience that stuff is consistently good.

 

[Cortisol]

I don't think that is what people are saying. It's not that they can't produce it, it's that they often scam people and produce low quality products to make a quick extra buck. They do this with legal products like baby formula. Hong Kong had no baby formula on the shelves bc Chinese didn't trust their domestic brands. They went to HK and bought it all up.

So am I supposed to trust black market GH from there?

Again, a sponsor had problems with the Chinese end and put in a lot of work to start producing his own. Moved the operation out of China and controls it himself. From the threads on here and my own experience that stuff is consistently good.

What is happening is that we in the west have gotten wise. I constantly test my GH. Producers in China knows this. There is still a market for the lesser quality Chinese GH and thus the Chinese produce the lower quality stuff too. Why? Because people buy it.

For me, and I have a good line on Nords, I buy from HK. Yes I send a shit ton of money, and yes I wait 5 plus weeks, but it is worth it. I test every batch from HK, still.

TP has better T/A, but some labs I have seen indicate that his greys sometimes score lower, although I have also seen B serums at 30 on his G tops. He often has the same product as HK.

A lot of people are uncomfortable sending thousands of dollars to China and waiting 5-6 weeks. I understand. In my case, I am OK w/ that T/A because the product is consistently very good.

 

[Mike28]

What is happening is that we in the west have gotten wise. I constantly test my GH. Producers in China knows this. There is still a market for the lesser quality Chinese GH and thus the Chinese produce the lower quality stuff too. Why? Because people buy it.

For me, and I have a good line on Nords, I buy from HK. Yes I send a shit ton of money, and yes I wait 5 plus weeks, but it is worth it. I test every batch from HK, still.

TP has better T/A, but some labs I have seen indicate that his greys sometimes score lower, although I have also seen B serums at 30 on his G tops. He often has the same product as HK.

A lot of people are uncomfortable sending thousands of dollars to China and waiting 5-6 weeks. I understand. In my case, I am OK w/ that T/A because the product is consistently very good.

Cool that makes sense. This isn't just a GH problem. It is a problem with all products from there, but the nature of the GH game makes it even more susceptible to scams and such.

I will choose the GH that doesn't come from China bc I know the company has more control over it's production and quality.

I know Taiwanese and HK businessmen that bring their own liquor and what not on business trips to China bc even the airport stores in China sell counterfeit goods. It's a scary situation.

 

[Knight9]

What is happening is that we in the west have gotten wise. I constantly test my GH. Producers in China knows this. There is still a market for the lesser quality Chinese GH and thus the Chinese produce the lower quality stuff too. Why? Because people buy it.

For me, and I have a good line on Nords, I buy from HK. Yes I send a shit ton of money, and yes I wait 5 plus weeks, but it is worth it. I test every batch from HK, still.

TP has better T/A, but some labs I have seen indicate that his greys sometimes score lower, although I have also seen B serums at 30 on his G tops. He often has the same product as HK.

A lot of people are uncomfortable sending thousands of dollars to China and waiting 5-6 weeks. I understand. In my case, I am OK w/ that T/A because the product is consistently very good.

So you straight up choose to use Greys over Nordi pens? If price were not an issue what would you be doing?

 

[ricky23]

question needs to be asked too, who is producing the gh? people say"they can produce good quality gh, been doing it for years" or "they're always looking to make a quick buck" etc but without going into detail, are these people former pharma workers? UG chefs with access to a machine?

obviously not wise to say on a public forum but if you can find out a bit truth behind the people actually making the gh then we'll have a better idea....

fwiw, i've found out bits and pieces from people (not on the boards) who've lived and worked in China and those regions until a few years ago.

i'll use generics but they'd only come from HK or TP links. greys are from the former producers of Rips so i'd confidently use them but nothing else if im being honest.
and even then, imo the purity is low or theres an excess of fillers. don't need a test to confirm that as the results tell me - water, heart rate, blood pressure even on a low dose.

pharma just too expensive although its good to go back and fourth to compare results and see if they are worth the extra money.
been using greys and i can see why im an advocate of pharma tbh. don't get any of the above negatives and you constantly look good.

but for a growth phase? having massively elevated (bio-available hopefully!) igf-1 is hugely beneficial so good generics for this is probably the better option.

interested to see the mass spec on greys regardless. imo its 191aa gh but low purity or excessive fillers.

 

[Cortisol]

So you straight up choose to use Greys over Nordi pens? If price were not an issue what would you be doing?

If I got either for free, of course I would run Nords. The reason is less water retention, and less hand numbness.

In terms of results the GTops can't be beat. I just took a month off from steroids. I only run 350-400 mgs week of either test or masteron. every 3 months I take one month off running 1500 iu's of HCG e2d along with A-Dex, as HCG gives me crazy estro.

I actually bumped up my GH to 5 iu's (half a bottle) of GTops e2d just to see what would happen.

After 3 weeks off test/mast, I kept gaining weight, going from 232 to 236. I eat like a pig, but I did not gain any fat.

The evidence strongly suggests that the continued gains were from the GH. HCG keeps my total test at around 700. 350 mgs test/week puts me at 11-1200 total test.

My IGF-1 of 319 was when I was on 3-4 iu's of G Tops e2d. Knowing that 5 ius e2d probably put me in a range where cancer risk gets real, I backed off. I never go off GH, am older, so overall health is my goal.

In reality, these G Tops are probably way more than 10 iu's a bottle.

Quality is not the issue. The issue is going weeks (5 plus) after sending 4 figure amounts of money to China. Most people will not send $2k with no info regarding T/A (IE do not bug HK during this period). I once sent an inquiry regarding order status at the 5 week mark. I did not get a response, but 3 days later my order landed.

I now just wait, unless it is more than 6 weeks. However, the package always lands by 6 weeks.

 

[Cortisol]

question needs to be asked too, who is producing the gh? people say"they can produce good quality gh, been doing it for years" or "they're always looking to make a quick buck" etc but without going into detail, are these people former pharma workers? UG chefs with access to a machine?

obviously not wise to say on a public forum but if you can find out a bit truth behind the people actually making the gh then we'll have a better idea....

fwiw, i've found out bits and pieces from people (not on the boards) who've lived and worked in China and those regions until a few years ago.

i'll use generics but they'd only come from HK or TP links. greys are from the former producers of Rips so i'd confidently use them but nothing else if im being honest.
and even then, imo the purity is low or theres an excess of fillers. don't need a test to confirm that as the results tell me - water, heart rate, blood pressure even on a low dose.

pharma just too expensive although its good to go back and fourth to compare results and see if they are worth the extra money.
been using greys and i can see why im an advocate of pharma tbh. don't get any of the above negatives and you constantly look good.

but for a growth phase? having massively elevated (bio-available hopefully!) igf-1 is hugely beneficial so good generics for this is probably the better option.

interested to see the mass spec on greys regardless. imo its 191aa gh but low purity or excessive fillers.

There are 4 facilities in China that have the ability to make real GH (IE more than 1 million dollars in equipment). However, there is a large variation in quality.

 

[ricky23]

There are 4 facilities in China that have the ability to make real GH (IE more than 1 million dollars in equipment). However, there is a large variation in quality.

why the large variation in quality?

 

[Cortisol]

why the large variation in quality?

Because people buy them. I was one of them, I bought kits that scored 21-23 B serum and put my IGF-1 numbers at 180. The same amount of G tops put me at 319. A bunch of guys over at Out. Muscle got B serums between 30-35.

The Chinese will do anything to make money: Lower quality GH (real GH, just not very potent) etc. I used these because my natural GH was low. The inferior Chinese GH (CGH) put me at high normal. I could not, and cannot afford Nords. Hi normal GH was worth it at the time. However, if you are younger and have good natural GH production, the lower quality CGH is not a good option. I would just run MK-677.

For an old fart like me, the lower quality CGH made sense. I made a lot of money in real estate and work years ago. I was natural back then, but could easily afford pharm.

However, in the last few years, I have been a business failure, doing nothing but lose money. CGH is my only option. I relied on CGH just to have high normal GH. Now, I do not need to mess with the lower quality CH.

These ^ sort of realities are why we have so much quality variation. Its the market.

 

[nfernoo]

I'm gonna look into a brand called angtropin.
They have have a website to verify blah blah.

But this test I saw said 17.5 iu per 10iu.
And many are saying feels like old rips

 

[brutus69]

all this gh talk and no one notices he's only got a test level of 3477 on a GRAM of test. that is so low. id be 8000+ on a gram.
and his free test level is pretty low as a percent of his total, too.

 

[Cortisol]

I have a question, guys: What kind of market is there here on PM for Grey tops?

There are several GH sources, what is their product and price like?

 

[Cortisol]

I'm gonna look into a brand called angtropin.
They have have a website to verify blah blah.

But this test I saw said 17.5 iu per 10iu.
And many are saying feels like old rips

17.5 via blood serum is a very low score. Rips and G Tops pretty much always score at or above 30. Lower quality Chinese GH that I have gotten scored between 21-23.

And of course B serum is not the best way to measure GH. IGF-1 is more accurate and reliable.

 

[Cortisol]

I have a question, guys: What kind of market is there here on PM for Grey tops?

There are several GH sources, what is their product and price like?

Oos, TP is on his board, yes?

 

[Knight9]

17.5 via blood serum is a very low score. Rips and G Tops pretty much always score at or above 30. Lower quality Chinese GH that I have gotten scored between 21-23.

And of course B serum is not the best way to measure GH. IGF-1 is more accurate and reliable.

He wasn't talking about serum score. He's talking about actual iu in vial.

 

[rAJJIN]

There are 4 facilities in China that have the ability to make real GH (IE more than 1 million dollars in equipment). However, there is a large variation in quality.

How do
You know this for sure?
Just curious

 

[Cortisol]

How do
You know this for sure?
Just curious

I have several minor publications regarding politics and the Chinese economic system. Worked with an academic who specialized in China.

He would tell you that the scenario we have today functions exactly the way academic models would predict. On its face, China is technically a communist system, but the reality is that the Chinese want to make money more than anyone. Just look at Hong Kong, rated the most purely capitalistic economy in the world. They love selling Americans low grade GH. They only make the good stuff because we have gotten smarter and test. I test EVERYTHING from China.

Also, China has a much older, richer and sophisticated civilization than Europe or America. The difference, historically, is that China had no interest in the rest of the world in the way Europeans did. They created gunpowder, Europeans figured out how to get bullets to go really fast.

Historically, the Big Political issue in China, for more than 5k years, was unifying the 7 tribes/clans. Put another way, the Chinese were too stuck up to care about expanding a global hegemony.

Finally, China has had the most corrupt leaders of almost any country. Corruption held them back and the Chinese feel that the world has slighted them, they should be the superpower, they should be the world leader.

2 GF's from Beijing, another from Shanghai. If we ate Vietnamese food they would constantly rant about how superior they were to all other Asian countries.

My partner deals with China, even lived there for a while and has 12 years experience with "products" from China. I do a very large amount of business with China nowadays.

If you get the short end of the deal, it is your fault, from their perspective.

 

[Cortisol]

He wasn't talking about serum score. He's talking about actual iu in vial.

Ah, gotcha. I agree, my labs suggest that my GTops have way more than 10 iu's.

 

[Massive G]

So what happened to posting blood work as proof of GH and IGF and Test #'s.

I see a lot of new guys posting up numbers in threads saying" I got this reading with this product and got that yada yada"...and referencing other guys on other boards etc.
I thought that was against the rules?

 

[Mike28]

I have several minor publications regarding politics and the Chinese economic system. Worked with an academic who specialized in China.

He would tell you that the scenario we have today functions exactly the way academic models would predict. On its face, China is technically a communist system, but the reality is that the Chinese want to make money more than anyone. Just look at Hong Kong, rated the most purely capitalistic economy in the world. They love selling Americans low grade GH. They only make the good stuff because we have gotten smarter and test. I test EVERYTHING from China.

Also, China has a much older, richer and sophisticated civilization than Europe or America. The difference, historically, is that China had no interest in the rest of the world in the way Europeans did. They created gunpowder, Europeans figured out how to get bullets to go really fast.

Historically, the Big Political issue in China, for more than 5k years, was unifying the 7 tribes/clans. Put another way, the Chinese were too stuck up to care about expanding a global hegemony.

Finally, China has had the most corrupt leaders of almost any country. Corruption held them back and the Chinese feel that the world has slighted them, they should be the superpower, they should be the world leader.

2 GF's from Beijing, another from Shanghai. If we ate Vietnamese food they would constantly rant about how superior they were to all other Asian countries.

My partner deals with China, even lived there for a while and has 12 years experience with "products" from China. I do a very large amount of business with China nowadays.

If you get the short end of the deal, it is your fault, from their perspective.

China is Communist in name only. Your Hong Kong reference doesn't make a whole lot of sense bc they are not really Mainland Chinese. They were a British territory until the handover in 1997. They really don't like Mainland Chinese very much.

Your 7 clans/tribes reference makes little sense bc "China" was ever changing and there weren't some magical 7 clans.

Regardless, how would this make you an expert on Chinese GH production? Seems like some basic/ incorrect knowledge of China actually.