Clenbuterol: Low Dose

[G.I.Bro]

Shit. I wonder if a beta blocker like propranolol would be good to take with clen

This seems contradictory and pointless to me. It will reduce heart rate but will equally reduce the effectiveness of the clen in all regards as its a b2 agonist. A beta blocker will block the same beta 2 receptors clen is using to create the fat loss effects. It's sort of like you can't have the good without the bad. The reason clen works is it fires on those receptors and amps up your sympathetic nervous system.

Use low dose DNP, clen is horrible for you. Yes, I believe low dose DNP is healthier than pounding clen and t3, especially with a heart condition like yours. Clen also literally causes some cellular damage (death) to the heart tissue in high doses (proven with a study, I have the cite somewhere). I've tried everything. The thing I use most sparingly is clen, it's unhealthy imo.

 

[G.I.Bro]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15591297

It's been known for some time that clenbuterol at high doses causes cardiac necrosis. This study in animals shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans not uncommonly ingest this much clen. For instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Bumping an old thread. I spoke to an MD yesterday and he told me clen in a low dose (40mcg) isn't as bad for the heart as ephedrine. He gave me a pretty scientific explanation that went over my head so I can't remember why. Just found it interesting. Never used clen but I love EC pre workout

how much ephedrine? everything is dose related

most ephedrine ive done was like 60 mgs and felt way to stimulated !!!

Use low dose DNP, clen is horrible for you. Yes, I believe low dose DNP is healthier than pounding clen and t3, especially with a heart condition like yours. Clen also literally causes some cellular damage (death) to the heart tissue in high doses (proven with a study, I have the cite somewhere). I've tried everything. The thing I use most sparingly is clen, it's unhealthy imo.

dnp scares me

looks like best to use clen and not get too high in dose. if that study was about equal to 100 mcg then might be a good idea to stick to lower doses



if you do a google , Dorian was supposed to alternate one day 30 mcg clen and 100 ephedrine next day, contest prep. dont knowhow true it is; although, interesting

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

This author did a nie job of breaking down clen and how its useful for dieting and why..

...and using a higher-higher dose for you( whatever higher-high is to you for clen) once a week, coupled with a hit type workout that can help one grow

 

[nothuman]

This seems contradictory and pointless to me. It will reduce heart rate but will equally reduce the effectiveness of the clen in all regards as its a b2 agonist. A beta blocker will block the same beta 2 receptors clen is using to create the fat loss effects. It's sort of like you can't have the good without the bad. The reason clen works is it fires on those receptors and amps up your sympathetic nervous system.

Use low dose DNP, clen is horrible for you. Yes, I believe low dose DNP is healthier than pounding clen and t3, especially with a heart condition like yours. Clen also literally causes some cellular damage (death) to the heart tissue in high doses (proven with a study, I have the cite somewhere). I've tried everything. The thing I use most sparingly is clen, it's unhealthy imo.

I've used DNP many times. Only issue is it has to be used for fat loss, whereas clen/t3/EC can be taken to keep fat gain off a relaxed diet, which is more what I want these days. I use 25mg EC pre workout a lot. Doesn't touch my resting heart rate at all. I've decided against clen, even at a low dose of 40mcg

 

[UseButDontAbuse]

I have been using low dose clen for 2 weeks. 40/60mcg very good results, fat strips nicely, but i cant deny my anxiety levels creeped up.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[bg091593]

Finishing up my cut and decided to use some clen the last few weeks. I haven't even used it for a week and I'm down 5 pounds... NO change in diet, NO change in cardio or anything else... I look MUCH tighter but I'm honestly concerned with the rapid loss. Only using 60mcg's in the morning too. Definitely won't be going any higher as there is no need. Is clen known to shed water? looks as if I've dropped a ton of subq water. Either way, clen clearly blows ECA out of the water.

 

[Eironman1521]

I've gone as high as 200mcg myself. I tolerated it but it was little much. 40 doesn't do much for me. I'm pretty stim tolerant probably due to extended bronkaid use. I'll probably build up to 175 tops the next time I use it.

Clen makes my heart jump like a mother!!!

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

why is taurine required? does clen deplete taurine? anything else clen depletes?

after getting used to first dose is it okay to split doses up like maybe a dose upon awaking and a dose pre workout or so ?

 

[RamboStallone]

I've used DNP many times. Only issue is it has to be used for fat loss, whereas clen/t3/EC can be taken to keep fat gain off a relaxed diet, which is more what I want these days. I use 25mg EC pre workout a lot. Doesn't touch my resting heart rate at all. I've decided against clen, even at a low dose of 40mcg

I would use T3 for something like that. Clen is only for a small run to shed some quick fat in my opinion. I don't ever stay on it too long.

25mcgs T3 should be enough to keep fat off with a relaxed diet. Depends on how "relaxed" you are though lol!

 

[Tizio]

I ran it very high dose for 9 days before my last show. The fat melted off but my heart felt like it was about to pop. My outlook on life has changed dramatically since then. I don't have it in me to risk my health for bodybuilding shows these days. My life is just getting good. No need to have a heart attack and a stroke like my IFBB PRO friend did this year. We are the same age. Now he only has use of half of his body.

I've read this posting of yours, it was one of the wisest, most mature ones I've read on bb forums, as simple as it is.

To me I found GH in physiological doses really good, improves my qol and fitness, but not so much gain wise. Everything that interfers with my htpa I won't touch with a 10 foot pole anymore, thank god my axis came back on.

Other than that, maybe I take t3/t4, which I think also is acceptable in replacement doses.

How are you doing atm health wise and are there substances that you filtered out as acceptable from health/results ratio?

All the best,
Tizio

edit: sorry for the push, his mail inbox is full

 

[Thebigone]

I would use T3 for something like that. Clen is only for a small run to shed some quick fat in my opinion. I don't ever stay on it too long.

25mcgs T3 should be enough to keep fat off with a relaxed diet. Depends on how "relaxed" you are though lol!

Rambo if the body produces roughly 25mcg T3 naturally then why would taking only 25mcg help? Thanks

 

[RamboStallone]

Rambo if the body produces roughly 25mcg T3 naturally then why would taking only 25mcg help? Thanks

25mcgs is not enough to completely shut down the body. From bloodwork 25mcgs puts me at a lower TSH then natural, so I tend to believe that's more then what the body produces. Thyroid is a funky one. For instance, both my Wife and I take 100mcgs of T4 every morning. We just got our bloodwork results, I'm at a 1.18 TSH which is in range but on the low end so higher metabolism then normal. My Wife's is tanked at 0.02, her Thyroid is basically off on the same dose and her metabolism is way too high. You need bloodwork to figure out proper dosing, no way around it with Thyroid.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

25mcgs is not enough to completely shut down the body. From bloodwork 25mcgs puts me at a lower TSH then natural, so I tend to believe that's more then what the body produces. Thyroid is a funky one. For instance, both my Wife and I take 100mcgs of T4 every morning. We just got our bloodwork results, I'm at a 1.18 TSH which is in range but on the low end so higher metabolism then normal. My Wife's is tanked at 0.02, her Thyroid is basically off on the same dose and her metabolism is way too high. You need bloodwork to figure out proper dosing, no way around it with Thyroid.

Ive had my thyroid tested recently and on a scale of 1-10 1 being slow , 10 being optimal for fatloss, I got in the middle , a 5. That goes to tell me that my natural thyroid levels were right in the middle at the time of that test and I can guess are about there naturally. That means for a person with a 1-3 levels, that are still in normal range, they re going to have it a lot difficult staying lean, and for a person with 8-10, they re going to have it much easier staying lean, extremely lean, even ripped without much effort.

you most likely know this, just wanted to remind every one

 

[Thebigone]

25mcgs is not enough to completely shut down the body. From bloodwork 25mcgs puts me at a lower TSH then natural, so I tend to believe that's more then what the body produces. Thyroid is a funky one. For instance, both my Wife and I take 100mcgs of T4 every morning. We just got our bloodwork results, I'm at a 1.18 TSH which is in range but on the low end so higher metabolism then normal. My Wife's is tanked at 0.02, her Thyroid is basically off on the same dose and her metabolism is way too high. You need bloodwork to figure out proper dosing, no way around it with Thyroid.

Interesting. My tsh and T4 tend to be on the lower end but still in range. Tsh more towards mid/low. But my T3 tends to run in the higher range. That is on no thyroid supps just trt and GH. When I was using 150mcg T4 I believe my TSH dropped a little more and my T4 and T3 remain the same so I'm assuming my body does not convert excess T4 to T3. So I wonder if 25mcg of just T3 may benefit me.

 

[RamboStallone]

Ive had my thyroid tested recently and on a scale of 1-10 1 being slow , 10 being optimal for fatloss, I got in the middle , a 5. That goes to tell me that my natural thyroid levels were right in the middle at the time of that test and I can guess are about there naturally. That means for a person with a 1-3 levels, that are still in normal range, they re going to have it a lot difficult staying lean, and for a person with 8-10, they re going to have it much easier staying lean, extremely lean, even ripped without much effort.

you most likely know this, just wanted to remind every one

I'm not sure what test you got done brother but a low TSH reading means hyperthyroidism and a high TSH reading means hypothyroidism. This is with using the thyroid meds of course.

 

[RamboStallone]

Interesting. My tsh and T4 tend to be on the lower end but still in range. Tsh more towards mid/low. But my T3 tends to run in the higher range. That is on no thyroid supps just trt and GH. When I was using 150mcg T4 I believe my TSH dropped a little more and my T4 and T3 remain the same so I'm assuming my body does not convert excess T4 to T3. So I wonder if 25mcg of just T3 may benefit me.

Let me explain this. Your TSH and T4 are on the low end when on GH because contrary to what people believe, GH accelerates the metabolism. I know, shocker right because all the "gurus" will tell you it inhibits Thyroid which is completely incorrect. It does this by increasing the conversion of T4 to T3, so you end up with more active Thyroid (T3) and thus your body starts releasing less TSH which signals less T4 production in an attempt to say "hey too much Thyroid".

When you supplement T4 or T3 the same thing happens, your body releases less TSH because again, you have too much Thyroid. Your t4 and t3 levels remained the same because the body started Releasing less T4 and it was converting the T4 you were taking instead. So again the GH caused acceleration in conversion of the t4 you were taking so you ended up with high t3 and low t4 and since you were supplementing the T4 your TSH went lower cuz your body produced less of it and used what you were supplementing instead. This is why Thyroid supplementation is not easy to nail down, many factors come into play.

Now understanding this you can see why neither T3 or T4 is needed with HGH because it doesn't inhibit either. Instead it increases the rate of conversion from t4 to t3 which results in a higher metabolism since t3 is the active Hormone.

Honestly after going through it all, I feel like you should only supplement with thyroid if your TSH comes back hypothyroid. Other then that you can see how you can take your metabolism in a roller coaster with this stuff. Sure using it to lose weight works but it isn't necessary as some make it seem. If anything, it is unnecessary but can be used to cut fat. Like you pointed out, why supplement if its in normal range? You'll just lower your own production and use what you supplement so you may be in the same range again.

People use to see low T4 on GH and think OMG it inhibited production, well not exactly, you need to look at all 3- T3, T4, and TSH. Minimum TSH and T4 tell us something.

I've gotten bloodwork on thyroid meds multiple times. I'm going to go through all my bloodwork again and attempt to see the patterns. So far it supports everything I have said above, and so does your experience as well.

Hope that helps. This is a complicated subject.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

I'm not sure what test you got done brother but a low TSH reading means hyperthyroidism and a high TSH reading means hypothyroidism. This is with using the thyroid meds of course.

id have to look at my blood labs but im positive i had normal tsh, right in the middle of normal, not low normal, nor high normal

in 2012 i used t3 and got my best ever conditioning. this year i decided to not use any thyroidals as it seemed more difficult, and yes ended up doing classic physique with having to lose five lbs but i still went through with it (got 5th place). My point is someone was low levels will have such a difficult time, someone with medium levels, well middle of he road, and someone with higher levels has it much easier

as far as stepping on stage, im not ruling it out bc I might try again without any thyroid supplements then again if im not where i want to be i may experiment with t3 again, competition look only. who knows

 

[RamboStallone]

id have to look at my blood labs but im positive i had normal tsh, right in the middle of normal, not low normal, nor high normal

in 2012 i used t3 and got my best ever conditioning. this year i decided to not use any thyroidals as it seemed more difficult, and yes ended up doing classic physique with having to lose five lbs but i still went through with it (got 5th place). My point is someone was low levels will have such a difficult time, someone with medium levels, well middle of he road, and someone with higher levels has it much easier

as far as stepping on stage, im not ruling it out bc I might try again without any thyroid supplements then again if im not where i want to be i may experiment with t3 again, competition look only. who knows

I'm not against its use. Just should be used properly and when needed like you indicated.

 

[Thebigone]

Let me explain this. Your TSH and T4 are on the low end when on GH because contrary to what people believe, GH accelerates the metabolism. I know, shocker right because all the "gurus" will tell you it inhibits Thyroid which is completely incorrect. It does this by increasing the conversion of T4 to T3, so you end up with more active Thyroid (T3) and thus your body starts releasing less TSH which signals less T4 production in an attempt to say "hey too much Thyroid".

When you supplement T4 or T3 the same thing happens, your body releases less TSH because again, you have too much Thyroid. Your t4 and t3 levels remained the same because the body started Releasing less T4 and it was converting the T4 you were taking instead. So again the GH caused acceleration in conversion of the t4 you were taking so you ended up with high t3 and low t4 and since you were supplementing the T4 your TSH went lower cuz your body produced less of it and used what you were supplementing instead. This is why Thyroid supplementation is not easy to nail down, many factors come into play.

Now understanding this you can see why neither T3 or T4 is needed with HGH because it doesn't inhibit either. Instead it increases the rate of conversion from t4 to t3 which results in a higher metabolism since t3 is the active Hormone.

Honestly after going through it all, I feel like you should only supplement with thyroid if your TSH comes back hypothyroid. Other then that you can see how you can take your metabolism in a roller coaster with this stuff. Sure using it to lose weight works but it isn't necessary as some make it seem. If anything, it is unnecessary but can be used to cut fat. Like you pointed out, why supplement if its in normal range? You'll just lower your own production and use what you supplement so you may be in the same range again.

People use to see low T4 on GH and think OMG it inhibited production, well not exactly, you need to look at all 3- T3, T4, and TSH. Minimum TSH and T4 tell us something.

I've gotten bloodwork on thyroid meds multiple times. I'm going to go through all my bloodwork again and attempt to see the patterns. So far it supports everything I have said above, and so does your experience as well.

Hope that helps. This is a complicated subject.

Great points!! Blood work is the key. I'm going to stay on 25mcg T3 for about 6weeks as that will be the end of my diet. Will get blood work done again in a few weeks to see what T3 has done since I've only had blood work on T4 and on natural.