Constant improvement - some thoughts

[BabyBeast05]

Super simple BUT Dorian was one of the most meticulous BBers of all time!! Diet, training, sleeping everything was plotted out to a T.

As all serious BBers should be!

 

[Hellbilly]

This is a great point Sammy. If you hate what you eat day to day..feel like crap..etc...eventually you will quit. You have to enjoy this is you want do it long term. Just like training. You can tell the people who are really passionate about it and enjoy it like Hellbilly....he will be training until he is 100 years old.

JM

Thanks JM, you're absolutely 100% correct on this.

I may not always like tanning and pam cooking spray but I just love to train hard. If I live to be a 100, and even if I am confined to a chair in a run down retirement home, I'll drag my ass out of it and do dips between the bed and my chair. Maybe use my food tray to add extra weight.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

TKAV - asked a really good question recently. It was funny when I read it, because it is the EXACT way I feel. The more you know....the more you realize you don't know much at all.

Good coaches learn. They make mistakes sometimes, and they adapt. I was thinking off the top of my head of where I have changed my views in the last 2 years, and i bet i could come up a HUGE list of things I do better now than I used to do. I hope that in 2 years, I am way better at coaching then I am now.

Anyways, just a thread to encourage people to learn, don't be afraid to make mistakes, and enjoy the process!

This was my response to TKAV in the other thread.

That's the beauty of the sport. You grind, train your butt off, try to eat to support how you train.....but you always look for ways to improve things. I need to make a list of the things I have changed my mind about over the last few years.

I bet Phil, Dante, Shelby, etc all have discovered things over the years to improve their programs. I know this because they are good at what they do, and good coaches look for ways to get better all the time.

People like to say keep it simple..which is cool, but it doesn't mean stop your pursuit of knowledge, just don't get paralyzed by it.

I really don't care what works, I just want to know what it is, and apply it to the people I work with so they get the benefit. I seriously 100% don't care. It's the end result that matters.


Off the top on my head - some thoughts..

1) I used to be a staunch proponent of eating carbs with breakfast. Not anymore. They get put to much better use around training when muscle cells are like vacuums for glucose. i would rather take in 250 grams around training, then 50 grams a meal over 5 meals.

2) Fiber - I am starting to think fiber making you completely regular is hogwash. i was discussing this with Dr. Serrano today, and he is already there. i am getting there. Whether it's solube, insoluble, etc...there just doesn't seem to be as much benefit from it as actual gut flora.

3) order of eating carbs. I feel totally different now than 2 years ago. I would rather people eat more carbs at night then during the day. You feel better, sleep better, and will not magically get fat. Your fat cells are actually more sensitive when you wake up after sleeping.

4) Accomodating resistance - I think you guys know how I feel about this. This is a GREAT tool bodybuilders are too stubborn to try. Chains are especially productive as they aren't likely to overtrain you as bands will do (eventually).

Those are off the top of my head Tom.

JM

Right there with you....Ive changed my mind or tweaked my thought process many times over the years. Thats why I cannot stand hearing someone say the term or refer to themselves as "guru"...that means they have stopped learning and think they know it all. I have some basic principles i still believe in but have served myself some humble pie with extra whip cream on top with some things i thought were "definites" which turned out to be "maybes" and "well not in ever case thats for sure".
Im still a huge believer in "got to beat today what you did last time" with training to keep getting better in bodybuilding or else you are fooling yourself if you are thinking you are getting better by accomplishing less than last time....and creating a hypertrophy process. (Bodybuilders never like to think they didnt gain by what they did today even if its 100% true)
Diet wise Ive absolutely gone from tunnel vision to "wow there are alot of different variations depending on the persons genotype" vision over the years. Im like you john ive pulled everything in around the workout and then make my way out from there.

 

[Lenny]

This is the reason Dorian Yates is my favorite BBer of all time. If you ever watch his videos or read his interviews about training and nutrition he kept it super simple, and it WORKED!

Sometimes the simplest plans on the most difficult to follow because the are so regimented for his OWN body's response to training, food, recovery,etc...

I am not set in one way by any means, if you check my posts over the years, my body keep responding differently to different types of training, different macro breakdowns, recovery...BUT...one thing is for sure, with at least my body, is that the only way I started growing was by getting stronger, not being afraid of all macro's aka balanced eating, and knowing that if you bang the shit out of your body in the gym with intensity and progression, then you must allow to recover to grow! Strength at all different angles = MORE muscle, Food progression across the board = MORE muscle, and listening to your body's NEED for food based on growth! When I was middle weight, I stuck myself into that category because I got too comfortable with it...well, till I got myself out of that comfort zone and opened my eyes up, not did I only grow faster, but grew while staying within reason with bodyfat...and the enjoyed competing in the light heavy division a lot more and like my look a lot more...and now my body says grow some more, not forcing it, but allowing it to grow...will I be heavy weight next time around...only time will tell with what CHANGES or more evolving I may have to do with training, food, etc...it is constant learning circle for sure!

 

[halflife]

That is what I was thinking, about the 57% efficiency. I didnt consider the demand on the kidneys but thats probably a factor. 2 very good points.. How is pH affected?

It changes the pH in several ways. The one most people think of is by creating ketoacidosis, which is caused by the excess creation of ketone bodies (especially acetoacetic and B-hydroxybutyric acid). In addition, if one was to look at the mechanism of it - uses carbonate from the blood to carboxylate the biotin and later it releases carbon dioxide. I THRIVES in acidic environment.

All in all in lamans (sp?) terms - it just modifies the set-point (homeostatic) pH range of the blood by things it takes in and spits out. Any deviation from set-point pH range over time can and will create harmful affects like cellular inflammation (where IMO ALL metabolic diseases start at, as MD preaches about when recommending his food choices).

Thanks for asking.

 

[Tinyshrek]

Sometimes the simplest plans on the most difficult to follow because the are so regimented for his OWN body's response to training, food, recovery,etc...

I am not set in one way by any means, if you check my posts over the years, my body keep responding differently to different types of training, different macro breakdowns, recovery...BUT...one thing is for sure, with at least my body, is that the only way I started growing was by getting stronger, not being afraid of all macro's aka balanced eating, and knowing that if you bang the shit out of your body in the gym with intensity and progression, then you must allow to recover to grow! Strength at all different angles = MORE muscle, Food progression across the board = MORE muscle, and listening to your body's NEED for food based on growth! When I was middle weight, I stuck myself into that category because I got too comfortable with it...well, till I got myself out of that comfort zone and opened my eyes up, not did I only grow faster, but grew while staying within reason with bodyfat...and the enjoyed competing in the light heavy division a lot more and like my look a lot more...and now my body says grow some more, not forcing it, but allowing it to grow...will I be heavy weight next time around...only time will tell with what CHANGES or more evolving I may have to do with training, food, etc...it is constant learning circle for sure!

This is why this site is the best!! All you guys might not realize it but your advice is going to create some great bbers! Thank you for all these posts

 

[ryanbCXG]

I'll probably offend some people with my answer....but this is where science and real world clash, you need to understand application. Do you NEED carbs...no. Will they make your physique better if used/timed properly yes. There is no doubt about it.

Trust me, I love healthy fats, anybody that knows me is aware of that. I do like to run on fats during the day. But I question the intensity of someone's training if they say they are doing intense training on low carbs, and i would also question their recovery as insulin is so anti-catabolic, and a shot of leucine will only get you so much...you don't recover fast..you get inflammed...too much, and your insulin sensitivity actually goes down....not good.

JM

In total agreement that if you feel you dont need carbs to train then your intensity probably needs to be checked. Carbs are needed for optimal performance when performing at a vey high intensity over and over again day after day

 

[Rickybobby]

QUESTION FOR MOUNTAINDOG AND OTHER WHO USE CARBS ONLY AROUND WORKOUTS...

Im in prep mode So i only use waxy pre and post (medium gi still replenishes quick)

what shakes do you guys use (or do you still use who food sources)

this coming off season Im going to be using a combo pre workout

50waxy/35malto/15 fructose.... intra 75malto/25 dextrose.... post 50malto/50dextrose

Also I have been replacing most of my meals with whey (isolate/concentrate/ caseinate) and Eaas tablets and I feel alot better the only meals I have been consuming are Eggs/ beef and salmon and some spinach....

My post work out shake is insu pro with a buncha extra Pepto pro and lots bcaa and glut amine added! Pre workout I like fruits and or whole foods with cards ie oatmeal, I don't like to train with just liquid diet but do like to drink a pre or during workout carb/protein shake.

 

[anab0lic]

I have slowly transitioned away from carbs entirely over the last few years and my physique and health has improved tenfold from doing so.
I was a carb guy for over half a decade... eventually I experimented with carbs only pre and post workout....then it was just post workout...then i tried carb loading at the weekends....eventually i realized they just arnt needed at all. The only difference i notice with the carb loads is my muscle had more of a watery bloated look to them which i dont care for and experienced no performance gains in the gym as a result. I dont suffer from low energy in fact my energy is better and far more stable (no highs and lows through blood sugar spikes) I dont lack any fullness in my muscles and my workout intensity is allways high..it has to be for me to continue making progress at an advanced level (relative to my genetic starting point) I think this way of eating goes wrong for most guys who try because they just dont do it right...they have an irrational fear of fats and their diet ends up becoming high protein low-moderate fats....thats not how it should be done...my diet is 70% fat with the rest coming from protein and small amount of trace carbs throughout the day. When you high protein low fast it just become and inefficient/expensive way of running a high carb diet as the body converts all the protein into glucose to meet energy demands...People also tend to think they need to start drinking olive oil and only eat 'healthy fats' and dont realize that saturated fat is good for you. I consider a cheeseburger (without the bun) healthier than a plate of chicken and rice and if you do the research you'll see its true. Saturated fat is not bad for you in the absence of carbs... the whole saturated fat theory was built on bad science and the theroy has been disproven over and over again - you only need to look at some of the latest science and what doctors who specialize in this field have to say to see thats true....unfortunately i dont see that becoming common knowledge anytime soon as it would be like a nuclear bomb going off in the food industry, if people knew the truth....too many very rich companys stand to lose alot of money and will do whatever it takes to keep promoting heart healthy complex carbs etc... we also wouldnt be able to sustain our current population with the bulk of our food supplys being carb sources.

Why i believe this works:

-Glycogen depletion from weight training is massively over exaggerated - which likely came about from supplement company's trying to push their latest sugar powders which has huge profit margins. There was actually a study done on individuals that performed a high intensity, high volume leg training routine where the subjects had before and after levels tested and the amount of glycogen depletion was very small... I forget the exact number somewhere around 26% I believe.
-When you are using fat as your primary fuel source glycogen depletion becomes EVEN LESS, it uses it more sparingly and can use faster digesting fat stores, id love to see the above study performed in fat adapted trainees.
-I train high intensity low volume, which i believe is not only the most productive way to train (Yates style) but also complements this way of eating.
-Gluconeogensis + the small amount of carbs you get throughout the day is more than enough to replenish the tiny amount of glycogen depletion, especially when you consider most bodybuilders protein intake is far more than is actually necessary.

I started researching this topic after i found it worked so damn well, thinking surely its just not me having such superior results eating this way and found the likes of Vince Gironda had his bodybuilders eating this way and one of his pupils won mr olympia... the man was way way ahead of his time and it seems almost like we have regressed in terms of whats optimal eating wise over the last few decades.

And lets not forget the health benefits of eating this way, if you do the research you will likely be convinced like myself that many of the diseases that we suffer from today are a direct result of too many carbs in our diet and the inflammation and insulin spikes that come about from it... glycation is a subject worth looking into.

 

[FutureFreak]

I have slowly transitioned away from carbs entirely over the last few years and my physique and health has improved tenfold from doing so.
I was a carb guy for over half a decade... eventually I experimented with carbs only pre and post workout....then it was just post workout...then i tried carb loading at the weekends....eventually i realized they just arnt needed at all. The only difference i notice with the carb loads is my muscle had more of a watery bloated look to them which i dont care for and experienced no performance gains in the gym as a result. I dont suffer from low energy in fact my energy is better and far more stable (no highs and lows through blood sugar spikes) I dont lack any fullness in my muscles and my workout intensity is allways high..it has to be for me to continue making progress at an advanced level (relative to my genetic starting point) I think this way of eating goes wrong for most guys who try because they just dont do it right...they have an irrational fear of fats and their diet ends up becoming high protein low-moderate fats....thats not how it should be done...my diet is 70% fat with the rest coming from protein and small amount of trace carbs throughout the day. When you high protein low fast it just become and inefficient/expensive way of running a high carb diet as the body converts all the protein into glucose to meet energy demands...People also tend to think they need to start drinking olive oil and only eat 'healthy fats' and dont realize that saturated fat is good for you. I consider a cheeseburger (without the bun) healthier than a plate of chicken and rice and if you do the research you'll see its true. Saturated fat is not bad for you in the absence of carbs... the whole saturated fat theory was built on bad science and the theroy has been disproven over and over again - you only need to look at some of the latest science and what doctors who specialize in this field have to say to see thats true....unfortunately i dont see that becoming common knowledge anytime soon as it would be like a nuclear bomb going off in the food industry, if people knew the truth....too many very rich companys stand to lose alot of money and will do whatever it takes to keep promoting heart healthy complex carbs etc... we also wouldnt be able to sustain our current population with the bulk of our food supplys being carb sources.

Why i believe this works:

-Glycogen depletion from weight training is massively over exaggerated - which likely came about from supplement company's trying to push their latest sugar powders which has huge profit margins. There was actually a study done on individuals that performed a high intensity, high volume leg training routine where the subjects had before and after levels tested and the amount of glycogen depletion was very small... I forget the exact number somewhere around 26% I believe.
-When you are using fat as your primary fuel source glycogen depletion becomes EVEN LESS, it uses it more sparingly and can use faster digesting fat stores, id love to see the above study performed in fat adapted trainees.
-I train high intensity low volume, which i believe is not only the most productive way to train (Yates style) but also complements this way of eating.
-Gluconeogensis + the small amount of carbs you get throughout the day is more than enough to replenish the tiny amount of glycogen depletion, especially when you consider most bodybuilders protein intake is far more than is actually necessary.

I started researching this topic after i found it worked so damn well, thinking surely its just not me having such superior results eating this way and found the likes of Vince Gironda had his bodybuilders eating this way and one of his pupils won mr olympia... the man was way way ahead of his time and it seems almost like we have regressed in terms of whats optimal eating wise over the last few decades.

And lets not forget the health benefits of eating this way, if you do the research you will likely be convinced like myself that many of the diseases that we suffer from today are a direct result of too many carbs in our diet and the inflammation and insulin spikes that come about from it... glycation is a subject worth looking into.

I understand everything you just posted completely and was all about this 07 & 08....

I also call people out when they call their diets "keto" when its simply not. 40% fat and 60% protein is not keto and as YOU MENTIONED --- 70%+ fats is true ketogenic style diet. Ala body opus, atkins....

Short Term -- like I mentioned, could see some health benefits coming off a "shitty carb based diet" thinking normal americans here and LAZY bodybuilders WHOM DO NOT consume nutrient dense carbs -- infrequent carbs, fruits and veggies + essential fats..... then yes certainly making the change from a common America carb based diet to fat based diet will improve several health markers....

Long Term -- I am not so sure as it is a mix of reviews here....and that saturated fat hamburger could increase triglycerides eventually and saturated fats can increase inflammation.

Saturates here and there are fine -- but it would be in ones best interest to rely on omega-9 and omega 3's and coconut oil for saturates to keep inflammation down ....

At the highest level of BB'ing --- I firmly believe carbs being IN THE EQUATION is best. Not saying chronic 'around the clock' eat-a-thon of carbs is conducive and in a growing BB'ers best interest but strategically implemented carbohydrates + healthy fats would be OPTIMAL.

Let's be real highest level guys most likely will engage in insulin protocols, GH protocols , perhaps igf-1 usage as well and carbs just might be necessary to maximize these powerhouse super supplements.

Going back to the idea that 'some infrequent' carb consumption is favorable for the BB'er wanting to better predict his carbhydrate loading processing prior to a major contest is something I have first hand had better success with.

When I focused on fats --- I was more water retentive to carbs and predicting their effect on me was not easy....

Good posts my friend -- Good thread by John and good discussion guys...

-FF

 

[mountaindog1]

I love fat, and always have...and I appreciate the fact that EXCESS carbs create inflammation which leads to the whole circular issue of insulin resistance, fat gain, and more inflammation. I am starting to get the picture that message is getting lost becuase I like carbs around training.

Here are a couple articles I wrote, some with Bill Willis. Some of these are a little old, so I would have to reveiw them to see if I still agree 100% with content...haha..


T NATION | Managing Inflammation


T NATION | Fats Made Simple

T NATION | The Truth About Saturated Fat

 

[sebaco2011]

Very nice read here! JM FTW!

 

[jp2007]

John, what do you think about the whole "carb back-loading" deal?

 

[ryanbCXG]

John or others

Fiber not helping with being regular......what does help then?

I notice when i switch a lot of oats for white rice or eat more rice instead of veggies and i do not add in some fiber i lose a lot of regularity and it seems like a get blocked up and the intestines do not clear as fast....Any thoughts on this and what to do to correct it if it is not fiber related?

 

[Chris5]

John,

Im interested in how you view carbs on non-training days. On days you do not train do you like to spread carbs out evenly throughout the day. Or possibly spread over the last couple meals of the day? (as I know you mentioned you are starting to place carbs later on in the day now due to seretonin release, etc.)

 

[Ocean cool]

I just switch all my other carb sources to fruits.
It was the best advice Phil gave me.

Works so well.

 

[PitbullTank]

I just switch all my other carb sources to fruits.
It was the best advice Phil gave me.

Works so well.

:yeahthat::headbang:

 

[JonnyO]

Sometimes the simplest plans on the most difficult to follow because the are so regimented for his OWN body's response to training, food, recovery,etc...

I am not set in one way by any means, if you check my posts over the years, my body keep responding differently to different types of training, different macro breakdowns, recovery...BUT...one thing is for sure, with at least my body, is that the only way I started growing was by getting stronger, not being afraid of all macro's aka balanced eating, and knowing that if you bang the shit out of your body in the gym with intensity and progression, then you must allow to recover to grow! Strength at all different angles = MORE muscle, Food progression across the board = MORE muscle, and listening to your body's NEED for food based on growth! When I was middle weight, I stuck myself into that category because I got too comfortable with it...well, till I got myself out of that comfort zone and opened my eyes up, not did I only grow faster, but grew while staying within reason with bodyfat...and the enjoyed competing in the light heavy division a lot more and like my look a lot more...and now my body says grow some more, not forcing it, but allowing it to grow...will I be heavy weight next time around...only time will tell with what CHANGES or more evolving I may have to do with training, food, etc...it is constant learning circle for sure!

nm wrong guy

 

[warrenpeace]

How does one stay regular without fibre, John? I know some people report worse conditions with high fibre intake, psyllium husks etc. Does a clean diet with veggies in most meals keep you healthy in this respect?

Bump for this Q.

 

[FutureFreak]

Bump for this Q.

You can stay regular from healthy fats and overall a balanced diet from the 3 macros...

Overdoing the vegetables and 'special fiber' based hot cereals etc actually cause bloating, gas and nausea...

-FF