Evaluating Safer Use Models

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

We have a psychologist on our hands. Unfortunately it’s none of what you said. What do I know? I’m just a bodybuilder.

You knock off or copy someone’s words, give credit. Apologies you got called out on that (I’m not sorry).

Moving along. I hope you’re getting a good affiliate % from VB.

So we can’t discuss just because one jackass decided to profit off of this by making a bunch of videos and putting them up behind a paywall.

It’s been said repeatedly throughout this thread that these concepts are not new.

 

[bbxtreme]

So we can’t discuss just because one jackass decided to profit off of this by making a bunch of videos and putting them up behind a paywall.

It’s been said repeatedly throughout this thread that these concepts are not new.

It’s a free country my friend, do as you please.

 

[KillerStack]

We have a psychologist on our hands. Unfortunately it’s none of what you said. What do I know? I’m just a bodybuilder.

You knock off or copy someone’s words, give credit. Apologies you got called out on that (I’m not sorry).

Moving along. I hope you’re getting a good affiliate % from VB.

Who even used the word "model" to describe their gear use before VB? LOL. At least Jewett says he learned these things from VB. Like I said even if all the ideas were out there before, someone packaged several of these ideas into one "model" and if someone talks about several items as one package exactly like VB it's VB's intellectual property in a way imo. Not legally but still.

Regarding the "accrual" of protein being the same for all anabolics, does he think even Proviron does it? It would be impressive, in that Proviron doesn't even seem to shut you down at all (though I might instinctively be suspicious of this claim). You'd get something for no cost essentially. And what do most reading the claim think? They think all anabolics will therefore cause the same net gain of muscle which I doubt even VB says because he talks about "what else do they do?" like in the case of tren having an almost unique (?) antiglucocorticoid (anticatabolic) effect, which would then affect net gain with that steroid. Then you have the aromatase factor which too affects muscle growth. And on and on. So you are left with different steroids having different effects on muscle growth.

 

[Golden]

Does the safer use model that is being discussed entail that doses of whatever mix you’re using stay the same year round? As opposed to the traditional blast / cruise or cycle

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Does the safer use model that is being discussed entail that doses of whatever mix you’re using stay the same year round? As opposed to the traditional blast / cruise or cycle

That’s the idea anyway.

 

[Mufasa123]

Who even used the word "model" to describe their gear use before VB? LOL. At least Jewett says he learned these things from VB. Like I said even if all the ideas were out there before, someone packaged several of these ideas into one "model" and if someone talks about several items as one package exactly like VB it's VB's intellectual property in a way imo. Not legally but still.

Regarding the "accrual" of protein being the same for all anabolics, does he think even Proviron does it? It would be impressive, in that Proviron doesn't even seem to shut you down at all (though I might instinctively be suspicious of this claim). You'd get something for no cost essentially. And what do most reading the claim think? They think all anabolics will therefore cause the same net gain of muscle which I doubt even VB says because he talks about "what else do they do?" like in the case of tren having an almost unique (?) antiglucocorticoid (anticatabolic) effect, which would then affect net gain with that steroid. Then you have the aromatase factor which too affects muscle growth. And on and on. So you are left with different steroids having different effects on muscle growth.

Found the other thread: here's VB in his own words in another thread posted right here on PM. He even goes on to explain it. He's basically extrapolating the rat derived anabolic/androgenic ratios not having an equivalent study in humans to mean that protein/tissue accretion is no differentiated between compounds. That's a huge fucking stretch and not remotely what the pubmed author was saying. Read for yourself post #68. https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/victor-black.167870/page-4#post-2956330

Recent discussion with some human studies and results of very different protein accretion are here.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/anavar-in-offseason-your-opinion.178305/page-4

 

[madg]

There is no “safer” anything lol

Just different weights and looks …

 

[IntenseVolume]

Found the other thread: here's VB in his own words in another thread posted right here on PM. He even goes on to explain it. He's basically extrapolating the rat derived anabolic/androgenic ratios not having an equivalent study in humans to mean that protein/tissue accretion is no differentiated between compounds. That's a huge fucking stretch and not remotely what the pubmed author was saying. Read for yourself post #68. https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/victor-black.167870/page-4#post-2956330

Recent discussion with some human studies and results of very different protein accretion are here.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/anavar-in-offseason-your-opinion.178305/page-4

So he’s the gate keeping authority that has the right to test people
He’s the oldest in the game… maybe.
Being old doesn’t mean one is entitled to be respected. It just means you’ve done the bare minimum of not dying.

He claimed to be doing this longer than Dante, John Meadows, etc.
nobody called him out on it?
He’s not a person who has done fuck all for very long. Age is a number of years but it doesn’t mean experience or wisdom.
Is it safe to assume from the little bit that I did read it was a bunch of posts of him jerking hisself off with delusions of grandeur?

 

[IntenseVolume]

I’ll just leave this here for anyone who takes this guy seriously.

 

[b-boy]

I’ll just leave this here for anyone who takes this guy seriously.

He is saying Arnold was the only competitor right?
If that's the case then if I would have competed even at 52yrs old I would have been second and victor would have been 3rd. So what's wrong with what he said there? I'm confused

 

[IntenseVolume]

He is saying Arnold was the only competitor right?
If that's the case then if I would have competed even at 52yrs old I would have been second and victor would have been 3rd. So what's wrong with what he said there? I'm confused

You know what I had to google this one before I responded.
Honestly man I didn’t know every competitor was disqualified but Arnold in 1971. I read it as him saying he would’ve legitimately beat everyone but Arnold.

 

[hawkmoon]

I’ll just leave this here for anyone who takes this guy seriously.

He's not factually wrong, but he's trying to imply an association that elevates his position. Homer Simpson would have come in second if Arnold was the only competitor.

 

[CorgisOnTren]

He's not factually wrong, but he's trying to imply an association that elevates his position. Homer Simpson would have come in second if Arnold was the only competitor.

 

[MR. BMJ]

So he’s the gate keeping authority that has the right to test people
He’s the oldest in the game… maybe.
Being old doesn’t mean one is entitled to be respected. It just means you’ve done the bare minimum of not dying.

He claimed to be doing this longer than Dante, John Meadows, etc.
nobody called him out on it?
He’s not a person who has done fuck all for very long. Age is a number of years but it doesn’t mean experience or wisdom.
Is it safe to assume from the little bit that I did read it was a bunch of posts of him jerking hisself off with delusions of grandeur?

If he is saying that he is 100% full of shit! Of course, his definition of 'doing this' will move goal posts to fit his narrative. If he simply means lifting a weight before most people because he is older, then he may be correct, but his impact on the community was non-existent until fairly recently. I'm going to assume since he has pride in not hiding behind a handle name, that he did not participate on any other forums until fairly recently. I 100% never heard of this guy until just years back, and if he was anybody within the field of our community, or research, his name would have been known. We all descended online from misc.fitness.weights back in the 90's (mfw), and he was not around. He was not on any of the handful of forums in the 90's either that followed mfw. He was not posting about anything through the 2000's, nothing. Why had nobody even heard of this guy if he was making an impact when all this was going on? If I am wrong on this, then I will stand corrected.

I am certain that GotGame was the first person who I read that posted about using ARB's etc for heart health and prevention of cardiac remodeling. He may have come onto ProM after Disco, but he was on WCBB posting about it, and prior to that, he was on AFboard/AnabolicFitness prior to 2010. I'm not saying he was the first everywhere, but he was the one I remember promoting them for prevention of cardiac remodeling. I'm not sure if Nandi et al ever mentioned them for that purpose on CEM, but they may have. They for sure talked about using BP meds for kidney and HTN health.

I know this thread got swayed in different directions, but there has always been mostly 2 groups of users since i've been using them in the 90's....1) Those who use (or abuse) for overall size and freakiness, and 2) Those who use for overall health, Whether it be just trt, 10mg/d (Emeric), or trt+, a lot of this stuff has been just retitled over the years. Not saying we haven't learned more over the years, but the overall jist of use has either been for size or health.

I will listen to anybody who is giving correct info, and I will honor their opinions from their own experiences, but anybody who self-titles themself as a guru is a major turn-off.

I would 100% prefer any advice that Scott Stevenson (Homonunculus) gave, he is legit AF! It's funny that somebody would try to kick down Scott. <--Assuming that it is true.

BTW...I don't frown on anybody who pops up and gives legit info, whether they are new or have been around for decades....correct info is correct info.

Anyway...i'm not even sure what i'm even getting at by this point with my post, lol!!!

 

[KillerStack]

VB makes the claim that nothing has "advanced" in bodybuilding knowledge/practical application in 30 years. Which I think is essentially correct. He claims it's just the health aspect of juicing, how to do it more safely, that has moved forward. B-boy posted a thread discussing it as he also believes it. I know many even here talk about the "science" of bodybuilding, how there are better natural bodybuilders today due to the advances in nutritional knowledge, which I think is ridiculous. What is new in practical application? Nothing at all, it's still high protein, it's still "chicken and rice," absolutely nothing's changed. Higher dose recombinant GH and popularisation of insulin use (much to do with Milos) is the only thing that moved physiques forward and this was in the early 90s already. It was GH and insulin along with much higher dose of steroids (3-4 grams) and especially testosterone. The increase in average testosterone doses had imo much to do with that cycle paper found on Munzer. Even Duchaine was like, "500mg of test a day, WTH?! Maybe there is something to the claim that 4+ grams opens up new growth." And here we've been ever since, with some attempting even higher dosages, like Nasser reportedly.
High steroids (like around 4 grams), high GH (due to lower prices/availability) and insulin, it's responsible for 99% of the mass seen today, not scientific training, not scientific nutrition.

Milos has talked about what Nasser said was the "million dollar secret" (insulin) that was reponsible for Nasser's gains circa 94-95. Milos has also credited Nasser's high 600 gram protein intake around that time. I think Milos had suggested like 400+ grams but Nasser had to push it even further naturally lol. I'm sure that was part of the successful formula. Nasser was a trickster, claimed he ate 80 grams of protein a day in the off-season, Chad laughed about it and said Nasser ate more for breakfast.

I had a laugh about Aceto's story he wrote about on IG. At the 95 NOC (I think it was?) Aceto could not wrap his head around the gains Nasser had made and tried to figure out what had changed.

Aceto asked Nasser if he used T3. Nasser said "50..." and Aceto thought, "alright, 50mcg a day" but Nasser continued, "... tablets a day." 50 tablets a day? Fuck that guy Lol.

 

[madg]

VB makes the claim that nothing has "advanced" in bodybuilding knowledge/practical application in 30 years. Which I think is essentially correct. He claims it's just the health aspect of juicing, how to do it more safely, that has moved forward. B-boy posted a thread discussing it as he also believes it. I know many even here talk about the "science" of bodybuilding, how there are better natural bodybuilders today due to the advances in nutritional knowledge, which I think is ridiculous. What is new in practical application? Nothing at all, it's still high protein, it's still "chicken and rice," absolutely nothing's changed. Higher dose recombinant GH and popularisation of insulin use (much to do with Milos) is the only thing that moved physiques forward and this was in the early 90s already. It was GH and insulin along with much higher dose of steroids (3-4 grams) and especially testosterone. The increase in average testosterone doses had imo much to do with that cycle paper found on Munzer. Even Duchaine was like, "500mg of test a day, WTH?! Maybe there is something to the claim that 4+ grams opens up new growth." And here we've been ever since, with some attempting even higher dosages, like Nasser reportedly.
High steroids (like around 4 grams), high GH (due to lower prices/availability) and insulin, it's responsible for 99% of the mass seen today, not scientific training, not scientific nutrition.

Milos has talked about what Nasser said was the "million dollar secret" (insulin) that was reponsible for Nasser's gains circa 94-95. Milos has also credited Nasser's high 600 gram protein intake around that time. I think Milos had suggested like 400+ grams but Nasser had to push it even further naturally lol. I'm sure that was part of the successful formula. Nasser was a trickster, claimed he ate 80 grams of protein a day in the off-season, Chad laughed about it and said Nasser ate more for breakfast.

I had a laugh about Aceto's story he wrote about on IG. At the 95 NOC (I think it was?) Aceto could not wrap his head around the gains Nasser had made and tried to figure out what had changed.

Aceto asked Nasser if he used T3. Nasser said "50..." and Aceto thought, "alright, 50mcg a day" but Nasser continued, "... tablets a day." 50 tablets a day? Fuck that guy Lol.

Couldnt have said it beter

Still ppl drink the coolaid lol and go scientific this scientific that

I could up gear to 4g and gh to 12 and i would be 110 kg without even raising weights in excersices lol

Just upping gear + protein intake

 

[KillerStack]

Just upping gear + protein intake

Another thing that is about 30 years old I think, is whey protein. In a way it did change things, the high protein intakes we see would be very hard without it. Was the first popular brand "Designer Whey" or something like that? Duchaine pioneered so many things and as I recall he was really involved in hyping it up in MM2K. Not his idea but he saw the benefit. Though even today many good bodybuilders aren't really sure about its benefits, like some think "shakes" are really inferior to solid food. "It's only a supplement, not a food item." I think that's silly, I don't think it's any less a food or inferior to say your boiled egg whites or whatever.

 

[EnhancedFatGrappler]

Another thing that is about 30 years old I think, is whey protein. In a way it did change things, the high protein intakes we see would be very hard without it. Was the first popular brand "Designer Whey" or something like that? Duchaine pioneered so many things and as I recall he was really involved in hyping it up in MM2K. Not his idea but he saw the benefit. Though even today many good bodybuilders aren't really sure about its benefits, like some think "shakes" are really inferior to solid food. "It's only a supplement, not a food item." I think that's silly, I don't think it's any less a food or inferior to say your boiled egg whites or whatever.

I always love to read more about Ducchaine. Do you, by chance, have any of his articles in mind where he talks about Whey/Protein Powders and enhanced bodybuilders? He was way ahead of anyone, and reading his thoughts on this always is worth it. Hard to find his works nowadays though.

 

[Mufasa123]

Another thing that is about 30 years old I think, is whey protein. In a way it did change things, the high protein intakes we see would be very hard without it. Was the first popular brand "Designer Whey" or something like that? Duchaine pioneered so many things and as I recall he was really involved in hyping it up in MM2K. Not his idea but he saw the benefit. Though even today many good bodybuilders aren't really sure about its benefits, like some think "shakes" are really inferior to solid food. "It's only a supplement, not a food item." I think that's silly, I don't think it's any less a food or inferior to say your boiled egg whites or whatever.

Lol I forgot about Designer Protein. I used to use it. Light blue labeling as I recall. Before whey it was egg protein as the best I think. I used that. Most powders were soy or some other low grade. When whey came out they spent a lot of time showing how it was superior to egg protein. Just remembering Designer chocolate flavor now. If was good.

 

[totalrecomp]

I believe AIs cause brittle bones in old age in many. That’s why I try and avoid them. Not to mention I don’t fully trust pharmaceutical companies. Especially ones designing drugs for women that are used off label in men. Nolvadex being the one exception but I still try and limit that too.

i mean, it’s just common sense that the less weird drugs we use designed for women and cancer… the better off we’re gonna be when we get old. And personally, I don’t want major health problems and soft ass bones when I’m older. I actually care how I age.

I also realize this is probably not a popular opinion on here as most members care more about looking badass and cool in their younger years, future health be damned. Now flame away lol

Not a history buff when it comes to masteron eh? lol