Off TRT! Is HPTA recovery possible?

[TT]

I am saying 0 in your situation. Where naturally your test levels are normal and don't require TRT. If someone like me with 172 of test that is different. TRT isn't a demon nor its an Angel. We can't assume it is 100% safe. If my grandpa used to smoke 2 packs a day my brother after couple years of smoking developed all kinds of problems. You see where I am getting. And liver toxicity is real. It is not fatal of course but liver issues are real and you can find it if you look good enough. As I said I am not doing anybody's homework.

Again, the question was what was healthier/lesser risk for a people with normal test levels. The answer to that is obvious. Even simple fact that response to gear diminishes with TRT and one has use higher doses in the consequent blast and thus subjecting themselves to unnecessary risk.

And again, keeping gains and healthy do not mix. I myself never used PCT drugs except this last fall because I obviously needed them and only took them for a short period of time. Getting off was, is and always will be a better option for the health minded people. Now for keeping gains minded people it is not applicable. You want to do TRT after 4 weeks because that's when your gains start falling off. If that is the case and the case is fear of getting smaller than nothing can stop you and you know the consequences but it won't change your mind. TRT is not a "healthy" option. If your test bounces back, what's the point of TRT? with true TRT you mimic your natural production. So who cares that for a month it will be less than natural. After that you will have your levels just as with TRUE TRT. So what's the point? Gains don't fall off that easy. Water does. You don't have to use PCT. I also don't believe in PCT for those that get the test back naturally. There is simply no need for it.

We talked about "healthier" option but we should not ignore strategic thinking. What happens if after lets say after 5-10 years you develop health issues or any other scenario that would require you to go off? By committing to TRT at 23 with the intent of juicing for many years you shut the door behind you. Why not to leave that door open? It doesn't cost much. Only a few pounds of water weight.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I am saying 0 in your situation. Where naturally your test levels are normal and don't require TRT. If someone like me with 172 of test that is different. TRT isn't a demon nor its an Angel. We can't assume it is 100% safe. If my grandpa used to smoke 2 packs a day my brother after couple years of smoking developed all kinds of problems. You see where I am getting. And liver toxicity is real. It is not fatal of course but liver issues are real and you can find it if you look good enough. As I said I am not doing anybody's homework.

Again, the question was what was healthier/lesser risk for a people with normal test levels. The answer to that is obvious. Even simple fact that response to gear diminishes with TRT and one has use higher doses in the consequent blast and thus subjecting themselves to unnecessary risk.

And again, keeping gains and healthy do not mix. I myself never used PCT drugs except this last fall because I obviously needed them and only took them for a short period of time. Getting off was, is and always will be a better option for the health minded people. Now for keeping gains minded people it is not applicable. You want to do TRT after 4 weeks because that's when your gains start falling off. If that is the case and the case is fear of getting smaller than nothing can stop you and you know the consequences but it won't change your mind. TRT is not a "healthy" option. If your test bounces back, what's the point of TRT? with true TRT you mimic your natural production. So who cares that for a month it will be less than natural. After that you will have your levels just as with TRUE TRT. So what's the point? Gains don't fall off that easy. Water does. You don't have to use PCT. I also don't believe in PCT for those that get the test back naturally. There is simply no need for it.

We talked about "healthier" option but we should not ignore strategic thinking. What happens if after lets say after 5-10 years you develop health issues or any other scenario that would require you to go off? By committing to TRT at 23 with the intent of juicing for many years you shut the door behind you. Why not to leave that door open? It doesn't cost much. Only a few pounds of water weight.

"response to gear diminishes with TRT and one has use higher doses in the consequent blast and thus subjecting themselves to unnecessary risk. ". This is not necessarily true. Even in the thread blackstang posted there were members saying their sensitivity increased just as much going to TRT as it did when coming completely off. Combine that with the fact that androgen receptors are actually upregulated with more AAS and you can see that the only reason one may seem to respond better to AAS after coming off is because they lost more when they came off compared to staying on. So that point is null. Not to mention my lasting results more than doubled once I switched to blasting and cruising (TRT dose) compared to traditional cycling.

As for saying it is just water weight, that is not the case. I know how much I lost when coming off for 8-12 weeks completely and the water weight came off in 2-4 weeks but after that it was much more muscle loss being completely off compared to TRT.

You are mistaken in thinking that just because true TRT mimics natural production it will result in equal retention of gains after water is lost. I and many others have experienced that one will lose the majority of their gains from gear if they stay off long enough, yet there are plenty of guys who keep a large amount of their gains (not all) even though they are now only on TRT and have only been on TRT for years. And also TRT puts me around 8-900, so twice what I'd normally be at but still in the "normal range" and with equivalent blood work as far as health markers are concerned. Not to mention with TRT you do not have the daily fluctuations as much with the circadian rhythm throughout the day.

As for the long term shutdown, that is again not related to the argument of what is healthier between cycles, but for the record I have heard of plenty of people getting their T levels back to "normal" range after years of blasting and cruising (as you are hoping to do) and others who have cycled for years and now have lasting low T levels, so one is not indicative of the other occurring.

 

[BIG-D123]

Still curious in Ross trt-pct protocol.

Ross, can you post it up??

 

[TT]

Pumped,

So judging from your point it is healthier for young bodybuilders to start TRT right from the start?

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Pumped,

So judging from your point it is healthier for young bodybuilders to start TRT right from the start?

Depends on what their goals are and what their cycles will be like and if they are going to include PCT or not.

If someone is planning on doing a 1-3 cycles so they can just make quick gains to look good for a summer or two then go off completely, well then they shouldn't be using gear in the first place

If someone is going to do 3-4 8-week blasts per year with 6-8 weeks off in between then it probably doesn't matter much since for the first 4 of those weeks off they will still have TRT levels of AAS (or more) in their system anyway and then will be back on in 2-4 weeks.

If doing say two 10-12-week cycles per year (like I plan to do) then you're going to be off for a considerably longer period. In which case I think both TRT and coming off completely will be similarly healthy (maybe minor differences since things will crash faster with coming off completely) but as I've said throughout this thread the TRT option has the benefit of retaining more gains, which for equal health results is obviously the better choice. Health may be ones priority but why choose health + loss of gains over health + retention of gains.

I do think problems can arise when people's "TRT" is really a cruise of 300+mg....then yes of course issues arise as Maldorf has explained in many threads. But now even he is on TRT at true TRT levels after suffering a heart attack.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I'll add that in the last 2 years or so using gear I've had blood work done 18 times, and have only had 3 times with anything particularly alarming on it.

Once was before I had the right liver care (bs crap from a sponsor on here) and my liver enzymes were sky high on orals. Another was on orals and tren and HDL was 14. Third time was CRP of 12.

Since then I have decided to be done with orals, tren or really anything besides Test and Equipoise and maybe Primo if I ever had the chance. So the most moderate compounds. I have also gotten appropriate liver care that has worked very well (Liv52 + milk thistle) and the CRP was probably a fluke because every time other than that it has been 0.5-1.2 or so. Maybe elevated bc of inflammation from Crohns, not sure, it was pretty odd.

So I am in no way just looking for any justification I can find to get the most gains. If I was I'd be on orals, tren, GH, etc all the time at high doses. Health really is a big concern for me. I just haven't seen anything convincing showing that TRT at true TRT doses would be any worse for me, to any significant degree, compared to coming off completely.

 

[MaineGuy]

A common misconception here is that if you do a 4 week PCT you will get your natty test levels back, this is false. The SERMS artificially raise your Test levels. When you come off your PCT, your body goes back to low T, and has to start all over again. This has been proved by blood tests, people that know what they are doing. People that don't, get tested a couple weeks or a month after PCT, see high levels and think they are recovered. FALSE. The SERM is still active in your body, giving a false high for natty T levels. More and More people are starting to recognize that PCT may just prolong your recovery.

TRT does not cause liver issues, that is old studies, or people that don't know what they are talking to. In the way past, the Test they were using used to do this, they don't use that Test anymore. Everything TT posted about TRT can be shown not true by just as many other studies.

TRT has its issues, but that is not the question pumped is asking. Is going on PCT after a cycle more healthy than low dose Test? I have not seen anyone with knowledge answer this yet.

 

[TT]

A common misconception here is that if you do a 4 week PCT you will get your natty test levels back, this is false. The SERMS artificially raise your Test levels. When you come off your PCT, your body goes back to low T, and has to start all over again. This has been proved by blood tests, people that know what they are doing. People that don't, get tested a couple weeks or a month after PCT, see high levels and think they are recovered. FALSE. The SERM is still active in your body, giving a false high for natty T levels. More and More people are starting to recognize that PCT may just prolong your recovery.

TRT does not cause liver issues, that is old studies, or people that don't know what they are talking to. In the way past, the Test they were using used to do this, they don't use that Test anymore. Everything TT posted about TRT can be shown not true by just as many other studies.

TRT has its issues, but that is not the question pumped is asking. Is going on PCT after a cycle more healthy than low dose Test? I have not seen anyone with knowledge answer this yet.

If you think that all articles that indicate liver toxicity are not true you should contact their authors and pin point the mistake. I a m pretty sure they will stand corrected especially since it came from you because you know.

 

[TT]

And if you read more carefully I said that PCT raises test art officially. But HPTA recovers anyway on the background.

MainGuy,

Do you also think that AI that lower estrogen don't help HPTA?

 

[TT]

Depends on what their goals are and what their cycles will be like and if they are going to include PCT or not.

If someone is planning on doing a 1-3 cycles so they can just make quick gains to look good for a summer or two then go off completely, well then they shouldn't be using gear in the first place

If someone is going to do 3-4 8-week blasts per year with 6-8 weeks off in between then it probably doesn't matter much since for the first 4 of those weeks off they will still have TRT levels of AAS (or more) in their system anyway and then will be back on in 2-4 weeks.

If doing say two 10-12-week cycles per year (like I plan to do) then you're going to be off for a considerably longer period. In which case I think both TRT and coming off completely will be similarly healthy (maybe minor differences since things will crash faster with coming off completely) but as I've said throughout this thread the TRT option has the benefit of retaining more gains, which for equal health results is obviously the better choice. Health may be ones priority but why choose health + loss of gains over health + retention of gains.

I do think problems can arise when people's "TRT" is really a cruise of 300+mg....then yes of course issues arise as Maldorf has explained in many threads. But now even he is on TRT at true TRT levels after suffering a heart attack.

I see a contradiction here. If your main goal was to avoid hormonal up and downs as you stated before, than why not do one long cycle instead of 8 week blasts. Or do you have scientific study showing that blast are "healthier"?

 

[TT]

I do understand that for someone that wants to juice year round its just that -year round.

Where I see a problem though is the idea that TRT in between blasts is healthier. It is all about keeping gains and it should be called this name. Will it be better for gains retention to stay on TRT while I blast 4 times a year. The answer is YES. Is it healthier - NO. Accumulative damage continues with higher test. MainGuy, I think you were the one who posted a study that long higher test exposure is bad for health, correct?

 

[TT]

Too much testosterone linked to shorter life spans | Fox News

 

[DK0223]

show me ONE study proving staying on TRT at 23 years old, when YOU DONT NEED TO is even remotely healthy

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I see a contradiction here. If your main goal was to avoid hormonal up and downs as you stated before, than why not do one long cycle instead of 8 week blasts. Or do you have scientific study showing that blast are "healthier"?

The main goal isn't to avoid hormonal ups and downs overall, it's to avoid completely crashing everything and forcing your body to try to recover from that crash

I do understand that for someone that wants to juice year round its just that -year round.

Where I see a problem though is the idea that TRT in between blasts is healthier. It is all about keeping gains and it should be called this name. Will it be better for gains retention to stay on TRT while I blast 4 times a year. The answer is YES. Is it healthier - NO. Accumulative damage continues with higher test. MainGuy, I think you were the one who posted a study that long higher test exposure is bad for health, correct?

No, for the tenth time, it is not just about keeping gains, it is about getting the benefit of keeping gains while remaining just as healthy. Big difference. If it was just about keeping gains I'd blast year round.

Too much testosterone linked to shorter life spans | Fox News

This says middle range of testosterone is healthiest. So great, use enough TRT to have you at the middle range of T levels. Not a valid argument for coming off.

Additionally, the highest mortality rate was for those with the lowest T levels. Guess what you do when you blast and come off? You go from high to very low to medium. Guess what I do when I blast and go to TRT? I go from high to medium. More time in the optimal range.

show me ONE study proving staying on TRT at 23 years old, when YOU DONT NEED TO is even remotely healthy

lol this is a joke. I've said this before so let's see if an analogy helps you understand...

Person A likes eating apples and get's the benefit from them (in this case, enjoying them). Person B says hey you should stop eating apples, they're bad for you. It makes no sense for person B to say "You need to show me a study showing apples are perfectly healthy or I'm right". Person A's reason for eating them is the benefit he gets from them. The burden of proving a reason to stop getting the benefit is on person B.

The benefit I get from TRT is it helps me retain gains. You are trying to tell me that it is unhealthy. I do not need to find studies showing it is just as healthy (BUT I could post multiple blood works showing it to be just as healthy in me), YOU need to post studies (or other evidence) showing it is less healthy to have a valid argument. At least TT seems to grasp this.

 

[DK0223]

bro stop talking to me like im a fucking moron. i dont give a shit if it helps you "keep your gains". it is not healthier to stay on year after year just bc it helps you "keep your gains". you say blood work is good, whos to say staying on wont have your H/H creeping up in time, or BP? you are 23 yrs old and have test levels that are nowhere near warranting TRT. you have "self-prescribed" yourself period. go see an endo and see if they think you need to be put on TRT. come back here and let us know what they tell you, im very curious

 

[Deleted member 106824]

bro stop talking to me like im a fucking moron. i dont give a shit if it helps you "keep your gains". it is not healthier to stay on year after year just bc it helps you "keep your gains". you say blood work is good, whos to say staying on wont have your H/H creeping up in time, or BP? you are 23 yrs old and have test levels that are nowhere near warranting TRT. you have "self-prescribed" yourself period. go see an endo and see if they think you need to be put on TRT. come back here and let us know what they tell you, im very curious

After two years my Hb/Hct/RBC and BP are all just as low on TRT as when I started and was off, so obviously it hasn't been an issue. If it ever became an issue I would change things just as anyone who isn't even on gear should do if those problems arise. Common sense, and not relevant to TRT vs coming off in between cycles.

This was on 100 Test E + 100 Mast P for 4 weeks (and I only tried mast with TRT once, now it would just be the Test):

Cholesterol, Total: 132 (125-200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol: 48 (> 40 mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 62 (<150 mg/dL)
LDL Cholesterol: 72 (<130 mg/dL)
Chol/HDLC: 2.8 (< 5.0)
Non-HDL Cholesterol: 84 (30 more than LDL)
Glucose: 77 (65-99 mg/dL)
Urea Nitrogen (BUN): 18 (7-25 mg/dL)
Creatinine: 0.98 (0.60-1.35 mg/dL)
Alkaline Phosphatase: 86 (40-115 U/L)
AST: 28 (10-40 U/L)
ALT: 46 (9-60 U/L)
Testosterone, Total: 997 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Testosterone, Free: 166.7 (46-224 pg/mL)
Testosterone, Bioavailable: 321.0 (110-575 ng/dL)
WBC Count: 5.3 (3.8-10.8 Thousand/uL)
RBC Count: 4.51 (4.20-5.80 Million/uL)
Hemoglobin: 13.1 (13.2-17.1 g/dL)
Hematocrit: 39.5 (38.5-50.0%)
MCV: 92.0 (80-100 fL)
MCH: 29.0 (27-33 pg)
MCHC: 31.6 (32-36 g/dL)
RDW: 17.6 (11.0-15.0%)
Platelet Count: 135 (140-400 Thousand/uL)
Absolute Neutrophils: 2459 (1500-7800 cells/uL)
Absolute Lymphocytes: 1945 (850-3900 cells/uL)
Absolute Monocytes: 456 (200-950 cells/uL)
Absolute Eosinophils: 408 (15-500 cells/uL)
Absolute Basophils: 32 (0-200 cells/uL)
Neutrophils: 46.4 (40-75%)
Lymphocytes: 36.7 (15-50%)
Monocytes: 8.6 (0-10%)
Eosinophils: 7.7 (0-6%)
Basophils: 0.6 (0-2%)
Estradiol: 32 (< 39 pg/mL)


Bolded the relevant more tests. Does this look like I'm having any problems...

 

[TT]

Very good numbers. I remember I had same numbers when I was your age. After 29 or 4 years onto TRT/blast my numbers didn't look pretty anymore.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Very good numbers. I remember I had same numbers when I was your age. After 29 or 4 years onto TRT/blast my numbers didn't look pretty anymore.

Are you completely off now, no PCT or anything? When will your next blood work be? Hopefully things are improving with your current protocol and you can post an update when you get the results.

You mentioned possibly trying for kids right? Do you think you'll have to go through any protocols for that or have you gotten sperm count and the like checked?

 

[TT]

As far as low testosterone increasing mortality it is relevant for a long term low levels. When I was 21-25 my test would be back in mid range within 4-6 weeks.

I like your example of Apples. But tables can be turned around here. For example I am Person A and say I came off and you are Person B that says why come off? It is better to continue TRT. So a burden of proof lays on Person B - you. But both me and you know that there are no studies done for our case. You speak because you theorize basing on others' accounts and I speak from others' accounts PLUS personal experience. And beginning of my experience is very similar to yours and a lot of others. It all started perfect but after a few years those ACCUMULATIVE effects are being seen and changes in the body occur to the extent where 100% relief comes only from withdrawing from TRT completely. Not even a 100mgs a week. Nothing.

It can not be said enough. Only a complete removal of risk makes it a risk free situation. But as low as TRT dose the risk even minimal still exists. So this situation can not be considered as the most safest.

Here is another one:

PLOS ONE: Increased Risk of Non-Fatal Myocardial Infarction Following Testosterone Therapy Prescription in Men

God Bless,

TT

 

[TT]

Are you completely off now, no PCT or anything? When will your next blood work be? Hopefully things are improving with your current protocol and you can post an update when you get the results.

You mentioned possibly trying for kids right? Do you think you'll have to go through any protocols for that or have you gotten sperm count and the like checked?

Yes I am completely off. I did a small PCT which ended in October of last year. It consisted of Clomid HCG and exemestane. Exemestane was ran till end of November. I stopped it short since I don't believe in PCT "kickstaring" HPTA, but it did help me get my test up a little bit art officially while my HPTA was getting awakened in the background.

My current protocol is pretty much let nature take it's course. I was in Europe (where I am from originally) this past summer and I talked to a lot of my friends that are also fond of Bodybuilding and use AAS. They don't believe in PCT and they surprised me with their numbers. They looked very damn well too. None of them do TRT though so that's where good numbers come from I guess.

Yes, I did have sperm analysis done and it was discovered I had very very few swimmers. I did this test only to take an opportunity since medical is free to all there and I did full diagnostic on me. Doctors did discover a few changes in me but nothing scary. I got an enlarged liver which had to develop in the last 4-5 years because it was fine in 2008. Also some part of my heart is enlarged and some heart muscles were stiff but the doc told me not to worry about it. He did attribute this to metabolic increase due PEDs. I am supposed to do another cardio echogram this summer and we will see if there are any positive changes since I stopped PED's.

My next blood work will be in May. Things improved dramatically for me already. Thank you for kind words.

I will keep this thread updated according to my progress.

God Bless,

TT