4+ wks in now and I'm beginning to be pleased!

[disgraziato]

Yes, because your scedule alternates and is not consistant tis why (I'm convinced) you're still seeing some results.

Your "days off" allow for clearing and assist in resensitization -- crucial to benefits.

Adaptation and Desensitization have been thoroughly discussed previously on these boards. However to bring this point home, I was attempting to point out that your body adapted to the substance and that's exactly why the bloat/water retention vanished.

It's best to keep your body sensitive to any substance you intriduce to it, thereby yeilding it's initial desired results throughout your entire research. Continual sensitivity can be accomplished by simply reducing dosages to just under the amount that creates sides. In other words, if 4IU creates various sides, then reduce the dosage until the sides stop. It's at that dose you'll receive appropriate benefits without forcing the body to adapt and even in some cases, create antibodies to combat the unwanted intrusion.

Though even at a reserved dosage, it's best to alternate. Again, rotation and confusion have also been discussed. For more information, please search these threads for:
Adaptation
Confusion
Rotation
Desensitization
Clearing

It has been postulated that the body can create antibodies in response to exogenous rHGH; understand that this HGH is synthetic and not identical to naturally produced endogenous hgh. When using peptides such as grf(1-29) and secretagogues, you are eliciting the bodies natural gh response; thus antibodies aren't even a concern.
That being said, natural HGH is what grows us from conception to adulthood; if desensitization was a possibility with endogenous HGH, then we would never "grow up", because we became desensitized to our HGH pulses.

I would agree with you that alot of the substances we research with require "switching it up" to avoid desensitization, but GHRH's and GHRP's do not fall into this category; One could administer a combination of these peptides indefinitely, adhering to of course proper dosing schedules, and never suffer desensitization.

 

[Genesis Peptides]

AMEN, your words echoed my exact thoughts, that is the one BIG reason you must research every thing you do and know why you do it. Disgraziato could not have said it any better. I absolutely and thoroughly concur with him.

 

[silverTT]

So what you guys are saying is that I'm not off-line in my research protocol, correct?

From what I've read and studied I feel as if I'm following current protocol correctly.

Like I said after my predosed syringes are complete I will switch back to a modest 100/100 dosing regime. I'm pleased with understanding what a higher dosing can do and understand now that lower dosing can and will be more efficacious.
Like I said i will return to a 100/100 dosing schedule or even less.

 

[123cctv]

When using peptides such as grf(1-29) and secretagogues, you are eliciting the bodies natural gh response; thus antibodies aren't even a concern.

Adaptation and desensitization occurs in response and against the substances themselves, e.g. ALL of the GHRPs/GHRH's and NOT the bodies own GH secretion. I know of no easier way of explaining it. Again, it's not the pituitary glands GH secretion wherein antibodies are formed against, but it's the substances which induce the GH that the body detects as foreign.

I would agree with you that alot of the substances we research with require "switching it up" to avoid desensitization, but GHRH's and GHRP's do not fall into this category; One could administer a combination of these peptides indefinitely, adhering to of course proper dosing schedules, and never suffer desensitization.

I have discussed the matter of "desensitization" and "adaptation" on these boards. However may I suggest you check out this thread where DatBtrue briefly concurs.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/54106-hgh-overrated.html

 

[silverTT]

well I agree 123..
Disgraziato.. granted taking peps indefinitely sure is no problem. However breaks are warranted... My thinking was that Ipamorelin was 'harmless' in that I could use a high dose whenever without a negative side effect.

Since I've used my high dose Ipa I've noticed that when I use 2-3x/day I feel very watery and after several days of this I notice an increase in the soreness of my R nip.

So I dont consider these side effects to be negative per se... I've learned what I can and cannot do.
Now to do what is recommended! Even though I tried this I thought the lack of fast or immediate results was meaning i needed to increase dosage.

Iam appreciative of the results and your opinions so I can reformulate my next plan.

 

[vein5]

yeah. just switch up compounds. works for me. Im loving the d-aspartic acid

 

[disgraziato]

Adaptation and desensitization occurs in response and against the substances themselves, e.g. ALL of the GHRPs/GHRH's and NOT the bodies own GH secretion. I know of no easier way of explaining it. Again, it's not the pituitary glands GH secretion wherein antibodies are formed against, but it's the substances which induce the GH that the body detects as foreign.



I have discussed the matter of "desensitization" and "adaptation" on these boards. However may I suggest you check out this thread where DatBtrue briefly concurs.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/54106-hgh-overrated.html

The link you refer to of Dats does not mention anything about the body becoming desensitized to GHRH/GHRP's. He was referring to GH users, and that switching it up by adding in GHRH/GHRP's would be beneficial to them because of desensitization to synthetic rHGH that sometimes occurs. That being said, the strongest GHRP that we have access to, Hexarelin, elicits the highest GH pulse but at a price; Increased prolactin and cortisol levels are a concern for prolonged users. GHRP-2, the second strongest GHRP is second place in GH pulse amplitude as well as increasing prolactin/cortisol levels. These two GHRP's are thought to cause some level of desensitization, the former much more so than the latter, if used more than once or twice a day every day, the other GHRP's, not really a concern. The GHRH receptor, however, does not easily become desensitized, if at all, so essentially, one could administer dosing protocols indefinitely and routinely without concern of desensitization.

I agree that desensitization can be a concern for the SPECIFIC GHRP's listed above, and that one should be aware of these SPECIFIC substances...Better not to paint a broad stroke and include all peptides when we discuss desensitization, so that our fellow board members can be more fully informed.

 

[123cctv]

The link you refer to of Dats does not mention anything about the body becoming desensitized to GHRH/GHRP's.

I believe his words were, "about changing and rotating and not creating a "pattern burn in" in regard to GH usage. He highlighted changing the release profile and using the GHRH/GHRPs and mixing it up to keep things effective.

Did you read the entire thread? Dat was participating in the thread and I replied along these lines to several users. If I was out of bounds, then Dat should have spoken up -- I've never seen DatBtrue shy much less reserved before.

Now while I respect Dat probably more than anyone on this board, as he's certainly contributed here far more than I ever have, even if he rebutted me, that does not make his word law. It would take a logical reasonable debate between us both before any logical conclusion could be formulated.

Yet let's hit on the obvious - something that takes little brain power to extrapolate information from. On day one, the week following and or after any break or abstainance from GHRH's, when I inject, I (like many others) experience at the injection site (these vary) --->> redness, soreness, itching, warmth. These remain for a while, an hour or (depending) much longer. The more sensitive a user is, the greater the duration of effects.

I've discussed these responses before, thus hopefully I don't have to with you (you seem rather smart) however I submit to you that whatever material is in these solutions, capable of invoking these types of responses, also exist in the vials others consume. Leaving us to the typical response some might state, "My body no longer reacts in this fashion" or they've never had this happen to them. I trust we know -- this doesn't matter!! If you've had these symptoms happen before, but have since dimiished, this only serves to prove an autoimmune response! However if you've never had it happen? This too doesn't matter - as those same materials/fillers exist and are provided via the same manufacturers when purchased. Oh you might not react in the same fashion others do, however your reaction (or lack of) will not void out oddities contained within. Regardless of your body's reaction, if it detects a foreign material, it too will handle that intruder, visibly or not.

Example: I can be stung by a honey bee, OTH my wife sustains severe swelling and soreness when bit. Two different responses, yet bee's are no different from another (same manufacture ) The difference? The bodies autoimune system is the only variable (not the bee OR the vial).

Bottom line - IF an autoimmune response can be detected or proven, then one can scientifically prove not only adaptation, but appropriate combative antibodies. This is where I protest "mixing it up", "clearing and priming" are necessary for sensitivity.

 

[disgraziato]

There are many variables that we, or maybe that I, am not factoring in. You mention honey bees all being "the same." However manufacturers are not "the same". Product quality and purity I was eliminating from the discussion as a great number of other factors, simply to simplify. Obviously impurities in a particular lab's products will cause an auto-immune response in most users; most of us strive to find a trustworthy, quality lab than turns out quality products that can be trusted. One lab's GHRP-2 is not another lab's GHRP-2, thus your reaction and my reaction to our respective GHRP-2's cannot be properly compared as to any side-effects or lack thereof.
Like you, I draw upon personal experiences, and I have experienced desensitization with the substances I mentioned. When I start Hex along with my GHRH, its really powerful right out the gate, and I base this on sides. But if I overstay my welcome with the HEX, its no longer doing much besides elevating my prolactin and cortisol, which is very noticeable and irritating. I've never experienced such with GHRH, no matter the dose or frequency.
I am fortunate to have been around for long enough that I have a couple very high quality labs with whom I deal exclusively, thus having a c"constant" to compare any sides I might be having.

I fully enjoy these discussions 123; its a breath of fresh air here, after all the neverending posts of "how do I use this" or "can I do that", it gets monotonous

 

[123cctv]

There are many variables that we, or maybe that I, am not factoring in. You mention honey bees all being "the same." However manufacturers are not "the same".

Hmm, I think I was misunderstood. When I said,
"This too doesn't matter - as those same materials/fillers exist and are provided via the same manufacturers when purchased. Oh you might not react in the same fashion others do, however your reaction (or lack of) will not void out oddities contained within. "

What I meant was - for those who purchase their substances from the same manufacturer as another, yet one person has a noticable autoimmune response, but another doesn't notice anything? Regardless, the "oddities" still exist. Thus I gave the example of a honeybee. I was attempting to compare the reaction only, as one reacts differently to a sting than another -- Honeybee's aren't made by different manufacturers.

I think we've exhausted about everything I can think of. As to everything else you said - I agree.