EXCITING NEWS - CJC 1295 w/DAC

[Elvia1023]

I definitely agree that we need to find the minimum dose needed to get maximum results. This is what everyone is looking for. Most people don't have the funds to research high doses on their animals. This should be our primary project.

x3

I wouldn't want to waste alot of my lab funding when I could be getting the same results on Bane with a much lower dose. Although I don't think he has ever been happier as when he was on a full vial for 3 days straight

I am excited about the planned larger dosed vials... this would help matters greatly. I have a strong belief in cjc-dac so I hope to see lots of research done on different animals in the near future.

I wish I could get Bane tested but I don't have the facilities in the uk. I agree it would be very interesting for someone to get igf-1 levels tested after a few weeks of daily cjc-dac usage. Another interesting result I would like to see is another test performed about 5 days after the last inj of cjc-dac to see if levels are still elevated in the standard human range. JJ I will pm you in the next few days

 

[gomit]

Its great your animals are doing this, so the much more poor animals in this kingdom like my self can hope to achieve such results. So far with your experiments O and JJB how is this cjc comparing to good ol synthetic GH for all body building purposes, it seems like alot of views have changed over the course of your logs.

 

[Stones34]

Since it appears that 100 mcg GHRP2 / 100mcg CJC no DAC produces the highest release of GH and high doses of CJC w DAC produces the largest sustained dose, does it reason to do:

3 to 4x daily: 100 mcg GHRP2 / 100mcg CJC no DAC
2x weekly: high dose CJC w DAC

 

[osiris]

Beaver,

Thanks for the pm, without you revealing too much can you maybe tlak about the dosages being used out there a bit? You know, without specifics? Or if even that would give something away, maybe you could m me and we could just pretend I mae the numbers up...lol. Puffins have very vivd imaginations=-)

Honestly, DAC has provided me with the results closest to high doose gh. The problem is stil4l the price which is why we need to find the min amount and the min duration to stay MAXXED out you knoe?

Thoughts guysd?

 

[Sparhawk]

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...ath-you-fucking-kidding-me-6.html#post1473214

Thanks Bro

 

[osiris]

Couldn't agree more.

That's the plan. Fiind out what the minimum dose is to get it there AND then find out the min frequency to keep it elevated at the upper end of normal is.

I think we are going to find out that its a lot less than what it is we were thinking before. I think the 4 mg and heck, even the 2 mg is more than we need. I men can you imagine if we could get our gh at 2.8 24/7 with 1mg of dac every 2-3 days? And I tell you that at 2.8ish, the results are comparable to 7-10 iu of good gh.

So its $22 per vial of DAC. And at the dosage listed above it would be about a vial and a half per week. So lets say its going t be $33 compare that to taking 10iu gh ed=-) I mean from a cost perspective you know?

O

 

[Mike Arnold]

That's the plan. Fiind out what the minimum dose is to get it there AND then find out the min frequency to keep it elevated at the upper end of normal is.

I think we are going to find out that its a lot less than what it is we were thinking before. I think the 4 mg and heck, even the 2 mg is more than we need. I men can you imagine if we could get our gh at 2.8 24/7 with 1mg of dac every 2-3 days? And I tell you that at 2.8ish, the results are comparable to 7-10 iu of good gh.

So its $22 per vial of DAC. And at the dosage listed above it would be about a vial and a half per week. So lets say its going t be $33 compare that to taking 10iu gh ed=-) I mean from a cost perspective you know?

O

If I were to guess, I doubt that anything over 4-5 mg of CJC per day will be needed...perhaps less than that. In the end, it really isn't even about how much CJC we need to keep GH elevated at maximum/near-maximum levels. The question is "What combination of drugs will result in the largest, most sustainable increases in GH at the lowest possible cost?"

Of course, I believe CJC will be a vital part of this picture, as no other peptide is able to result in sustainable GH levels 24/7. Therefore, the current research endeavor is necessary.

Personally, I am most interested in seeing the results from a combination of CJC, Ipamorelin, and Huperzine A, as I believe it will result in the largest AND most sustainable increases in GH at the lowest cost. Specifically, I would love to see the results when using CJC @ 2 mg per week (in divided doses) combined with Ipamorelin @ 250 mcg every 6 hours, along with Huperzine A @ 50 mcg, 4x daily.

With Hup A being so inexpensive (about $10-$15 monthly), it may be a more viable option for increasing total GH levels, in comparison to continuing to increase the dosage of CJC and/or IPA. Even if Hup A is only able to increase GH levels 25% beyond what we see with a combo of CJC and IPA alone, it would make sense to spend $10 on Hup A before spending larger amounts of money on CJC and/or IPA. It's simply a matter of what is the most cost-effective method...and with Hup A being so damn cheap, even small (but sustainable) increases in GH would be worth 10 extra dollars per month. So, more than anything, I am interested in seeing how effective acetylcholinesterase inhibitors are at increasing GH levels when combined with GH peptides.

In the end, I think we as BB'rs will be able to increase GH levels to at least the equivalent of 10 IU of exogenous GH daily (meaning 10 IU of 100% legit GH, which is often different than 10 IU of chinense GH), but without having to use exorbitant dosages of GH peptides. I think it is all a matter of administering the right combination of drugs in the most efficient amounts. It will take some time, but we will get there.

 

[alpha6164]

O,

You are absolutely right that there are direct effects of growth hormone. No question about that. We know this from many tests on rats on certain cell types that have no IGF receptors and see what GH does directly.

To truly understand actions of the growth hormone it is necessary to divide its effects into two groups:

• Direct effect: the growth hormone binds to receptors on target cells. Fat cells (adipocytes), for example, have growth hormone receptors. So, the growth hormone causes fat cells to break down into triglycerides and suppresses their ability to take up and accumulate circulating lipids.
• Indirect effect: the growth hormone causes secretion of IGF-1. The liver and other tissues secrete IGF-1 in response to growth hormone. Growth effects of the growth hormone are mostly related to the action of IGF-I.



Growth
We have to keep in mind that the major role of growth hormone in stimulating body growth is to stimulate the liver and other tissues to secrete IGF-I. IGF-I stimulates proliferation of chondrocytes (cartilage cells), resulting in bone growth. Growth hormone does seem to have a direct effect on bone growth in stimulating differentiation of chondrocytes.
IGF-I is the participant of the muscle growth. It stimulates both the differentiation and proliferation of myoblasts and amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues

Influence On Metabolism
Growth hormone exerts its action on protein, lipid and carbohydrate metabolism. In some cases, it is the growth hormone that shows a direct effect; in other cases IGF-I is a critical mediator. Sometimes, there are both direct and indirect effects.



If DAC usage causes us to have a GH level of 2.5 lets say 24hrs a day I don't see how that can be equivalent to 10iu of legit GH. And that is because if you and I injected 5iu twice a day our serum GH level would be above 10-15 24hrs a day. So whether the end results are from GH or IGF we should still get better results because both IGF and serum GH levels will be higher with the higher dose synthetic GH.

All big time medical studies that study growth hormone and peptides not only check serum GH but their major emphasis is on IGF-1. If you look at all studies regarding Egrifta (Tesa) they don't care what the serum GH really is. They concentrate on which regiment produced the highest IGF and those groups directly corresponded with the subjects that has the best fat loss and lean mass gain.

 

[osiris]

O,

You are absolutely right that there are direct effects of growth hormone. No question about that. We know this from many tests on rats on certain cell types that have no IGF receptors and see what GH does directly.

To truly understand actions of the growth hormone it is necessary to divide its effects into two groups:

• Direct effect: the growth hormone binds to receptors on target cells. Fat cells (adipocytes), for example, have growth hormone receptors. So, the growth hormone causes fat cells to break down into triglycerides and suppresses their ability to take up and accumulate circulating lipids.
• Indirect effect: the growth hormone causes secretion of IGF-1. The liver and other tissues secrete IGF-1 in response to growth hormone. Growth effects of the growth hormone are mostly related to the action of IGF-I.



Growth
We have to keep in mind that the major role of growth hormone in stimulating body growth is to stimulate the liver and other tissues to secrete IGF-I. IGF-I stimulates proliferation of chondrocytes (cartilage cells), resulting in bone growth. Growth hormone does seem to have a direct effect on bone growth in stimulating differentiation of chondrocytes.
IGF-I is the participant of the muscle growth. It stimulates both the differentiation and proliferation of myoblasts and amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues

Influence On Metabolism
Growth hormone exerts its action on protein, lipid and carbohydrate metabolism. In some cases, it is the growth hormone that shows a direct effect; in other cases IGF-I is a critical mediator. Sometimes, there are both direct and indirect effects.



If DAC usage causes us to have a GH level of 2.5 lets say 24hrs a day I don't see how that can be equivalent to 10iu of legit GH. And that is because if you and I injected 5iu twice a day our serum GH level would be above 10-15 24hrs a day. So whether the end results are from GH or IGF we should still get better results because both IGF and serum GH levels will be higher with the higher dose synthetic GH.

All big time medical studies that study growth hormone and peptides not only check serum GH but their major emphasis is on IGF-1. If you look at all studies regarding Egrifta (Tesa) they don't care what the serum GH really is. They concentrate on which regiment produced the highest IGF and those groups directly corresponded with the subjects that has the best fat loss and lean mass gain.

How-to you figure two 5iu injections cover 24 hours at 10-15? It peaks at 3 and rapidly returns to normal. That doesn't cover 10-15 for 24 hours. This is going off the charts that you posted

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[osiris]

O,

You are absolutely right that there are direct effects of growth hormone. No question about that. We know this from many tests on rats on certain cell types that have no IGF receptors and see what GH does directly.

To truly understand actions of the growth hormone it is necessary to divide its effects into two groups:

• Direct effect: the growth hormone binds to receptors on target cells. Fat cells (adipocytes), for example, have growth hormone receptors. So, the growth hormone causes fat cells to break down into triglycerides and suppresses their ability to take up and accumulate circulating lipids.
• Indirect effect: the growth hormone causes secretion of IGF-1. The liver and other tissues secrete IGF-1 in response to growth hormone. Growth effects of the growth hormone are mostly related to the action of IGF-I.



Growth
We have to keep in mind that the major role of growth hormone in stimulating body growth is to stimulate the liver and other tissues to secrete IGF-I. IGF-I stimulates proliferation of chondrocytes (cartilage cells), resulting in bone growth. Growth hormone does seem to have a direct effect on bone growth in stimulating differentiation of chondrocytes.
IGF-I is the participant of the muscle growth. It stimulates both the differentiation and proliferation of myoblasts and amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues

Influence On Metabolism
Growth hormone exerts its action on protein, lipid and carbohydrate metabolism. In some cases, it is the growth hormone that shows a direct effect; in other cases IGF-I is a critical mediator. Sometimes, there are both direct and indirect effects.



If DAC usage causes us to have a GH level of 2.5 lets say 24hrs a day I don't see how that can be equivalent to 10iu of legit GH. And that is because if you and I injected 5iu twice a day our serum GH level would be above 10-15 24hrs a day. So whether the end results are from GH or IGF we should still get better results because both IGF and serum GH levels will be higher with the higher dose synthetic GH.

All big time medical studies that study growth hormone and peptides not only check serum GH but their major emphasis is on IGF-1. If you look at all studies regarding Egrifta (Tesa) they don't care what the serum GH really is. They concentrate on which regiment produced the highest IGF and those groups directly corresponded with the subjects that has the best fat loss and lean mass gain.

I can say it's equivalent because it is through experience, not white papers. I replaced 10iu gh with the dac, ate like Shit, changed nothing and got leaner. So for me that shows me it worksil PRETTY much like 10iu gh.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Mike Arnold]

O,

You are absolutely right that there are direct effects of growth hormone. No question about that. We know this from many tests on rats on certain cell types that have no IGF receptors and see what GH does directly.

To truly understand actions of the growth hormone it is necessary to divide its effects into two groups:

• Direct effect: the growth hormone binds to receptors on target cells. Fat cells (adipocytes), for example, have growth hormone receptors. So, the growth hormone causes fat cells to break down into triglycerides and suppresses their ability to take up and accumulate circulating lipids.
• Indirect effect: the growth hormone causes secretion of IGF-1. The liver and other tissues secrete IGF-1 in response to growth hormone. Growth effects of the growth hormone are mostly related to the action of IGF-I.



Growth
We have to keep in mind that the major role of growth hormone in stimulating body growth is to stimulate the liver and other tissues to secrete IGF-I. IGF-I stimulates proliferation of chondrocytes (cartilage cells), resulting in bone growth. Growth hormone does seem to have a direct effect on bone growth in stimulating differentiation of chondrocytes.
IGF-I is the participant of the muscle growth. It stimulates both the differentiation and proliferation of myoblasts and amino acid uptake and protein synthesis in muscle and other tissues

Influence On Metabolism
Growth hormone exerts its action on protein, lipid and carbohydrate metabolism. In some cases, it is the growth hormone that shows a direct effect; in other cases IGF-I is a critical mediator. Sometimes, there are both direct and indirect effects.



If DAC usage causes us to have a GH level of 2.5 lets say 24hrs a day I don't see how that can be equivalent to 10iu of legit GH. And that is because if you and I injected 5iu twice a day our serum GH level would be above 10-15 24hrs a day. So whether the end results are from GH or IGF we should still get better results because both IGF and serum GH levels will be higher with the higher dose synthetic GH.

All big time medical studies that study growth hormone and peptides not only check serum GH but their major emphasis is on IGF-1. If you look at all studies regarding Egrifta (Tesa) they don't care what the serum GH really is. They concentrate on which regiment produced the highest IGF and those groups directly corresponded with the subjects that has the best fat loss and lean mass gain.

Correct. Good post.

Regarding the CJC being equivalent to 10 IU GH, I agree that the number would have to be higher, as a 10 IU inject of GH typically causes serum GH to increase somewhere between 20-35. If we accept that exogenous GH levels remain elevated for about 7 hours post-injection, then injecting 10 IU of GH over 3 equally divided doses would elevate GH for 21 hours daily, when injected every 7 hours.

Using those numbers, CJC would have to elevate serum GH into a range of 5.8 to 10.6 over a 24 hour period, in order to equal the total Gh output seen when administering 10 IU of GH daily. If CJC only kept GH levels elevated for 21 hours daily (the equivalent of 3 injections of GH), then serum GH levels would have to increase to between 6.6 to 11.6, but since there is a 3 hour discrepancy, it reduces the equivalent serum reading to 5.6 to 10.6 over a 24 hour period.

When used in concert with CJC, I speculate that a combination of Ipamorelin (injected 4X daily, every 6 hours, at a dosage of 250-300 mcg per inject) and Huperzine A (used 3x daily at 50-75 mcg per dose) will easily equal the total GH output seen when administering 10 IU of GH daily. This protocol would likely result in a 24 hour baseline increase in GH, interspersed with 4 complimentary peaks lasting 3.5 hours each, totaling 14 hours of peak GH elevation.

 

[osiris]

Correct. Good post.

Regarding the CJC being equivalent to 10 IU GH, I agree that the number would have to be higher, as a 10 IU inject of GH typically causes serum GH to increase somewhere between 20-35. If we accept that exogenous GH levels remain elevated for about 7 hours post-injection, then injecting 10 IU of GH over 3 equally divided doses would elevate GH for 21 hours daily, when injected every 7 hours.

Using those numbers, CJC would have to elevate serum GH into a range of 5.6 to 10.6 over a 24 hour period, in order to equal the total Gh output seen when administering 10 IU of GH daily. If CJC only kept GH levels elevated for 21 hours daily (the equivalent of 3 injections of GH), then serum GH levels would have to increase to between 6.6 to 11.6, but since there is a 3 hour discrepancy, it reduces the equivalent serum reading to 5.6 to 10.6 over a 24 hour period.

When used in concert with CJC, I speculate that a combination of Ipamorelin (injected 4X daily, every 6 hours, at a dosage of 250-300 mcg per inject) and Huperzine A (used 3x daily at 50-75 mcg per dose) will easily equal the total GH output seen when administering 10 IU of GH daily. This protocol would likely result in a 24 hour baseline increase in GH, interspersed with 4 complimentary peaks lasting 3.5 hours each, totaling 14 hours of peak GH elevation.

The problem with dac is mike with your pituitary bleeding gh you aren't going to get much of a pulse if At all from the iPam. When the faucet is left on you don't have much of a reserve to signal the release of

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[alpha6164]

How-to you figure two 5iu injections cover 24 hours at 10-15? It peaks at 3 and rapidly returns to normal. That doesn't cover 10-15 for 24 hours. This is going off the charts that you posted

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I don't think you are looking at the graph correctly. The above is with 5iu injection. It does not return to baseline rapidly. With the subQ injection your level is still at 10 at hour 8. At 12 hours it is still 3 which is higher than the DAC. So if you injected 5iu every 12 hours or 3.3 iu three times daily your area under curve is significantly higher by several magnitude.

 

[Mike Arnold]

The problem with dac is mike with your pituitary bleeding gh you aren't going to get much of a pulse if At all from the iPam. When the faucet is left on you don't have much of a reserve to signal the release of

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Has anyone done any research to prove this, either on the boards or in a university? I have not done any lab work myself. However, several clients shave all reported to me that they recieved superior results when adding a GHRP to CJC (either IPA or GHRP-2).

This idea assumes that our pituitaries only have the potential to produce enough GH to elevate levels to between 2-3 over a 24 hour period, which is pretty much the upper-end of normal. I would like to see evidence for this...because if this is the case, and our pituitaries do not have the ability to produce enough GH to sustain levels outside the normal physiological range, regardless of the stimulis supplied, I would be surprised. In the typical man, fairly large amounts of GH are stored in the pituitary at any one time...much greater than what the pituitary would ever release over 24 hour period under normal circumstances. In order to ascertain how quickly GH stores are depleted when maintained at any given reading, we would need to know how quickly replenishment takes place.

More so, as with so many other hormones in the body, production ability may vary from person to person...perhaps significantly. If this is the case, then one cannot say with any certainty that adding IPA (or another GHRP) to their CJC dose, is not able to further elevate GH levels above a reading of 2-3.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I don't think you are looking at the graph correctly. The above is with 5iu injection. It does not return to baseline rapidly. With the subQ injection your level is still at 10 at hour 8. At 12 hours it is still 3 which is higher than the DAC. So if you injected 5iu every 12 hours or 3.3 iu three times daily your area under curve is significantly higher by several magnitude.

It looks like GH does indeed remain significantly elevated for longer than originally thought. That fact completely skews the formula found in my previous post. thanks for posting it. While the formula was overly simplistic and did not take into consideration the fact that levels do not remain static over the active life of the hormone, I was trying to reasonably estimate a comparison. This graph changes the whole deal. Regardless, with personal response to GH administration varrying so greatly among indoviduals (in terms of GH serum readings per any given dose), it makes any kind of comparison on an individual basis almost impossible.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

Has anyone done any research to prove this, either on the boards or in a university? I have not done any lab work myself. However, several clients shave all reported to me that they recieved superior results when adding a GHRP to CJC (either IPA or GHRP-2).

This idea assumes that our pituitaries only have the potential to produce enough GH to elevate levels to between 2-3 over a 24 hour period, which is pretty much the upper-end of normal. I would like to see evidence for this...because if this is the case, and our pituitaries do not have the ability to produce enough GH to sustain levels outside the normal physiological range, regardless of the stimulis supplied, I would be surprised. In the typical man, fairly large amounts of GH are stored in the pituitary at any one time...much greater than what the pituitary would ever release over 24 hour period under normal circumstances. In order to ascertain how quickly GH stores are depleted when maintained at any given reading, we would need to know how quickly replenishment takes place.

More so, as with so many other hormones in the body, production ability may vary from person to person...perhaps significantly. If this is the case, then one cannot say with any certainty that adding IPA (or another GHRP) to their CJC dose, is not able to further elevate GH levels above a reading of 2-3.

CJC wo DAC and GHRP2 raised Alphas GH level to 24......40 minutes after research.

 

[Mike Arnold]

CJC wo DAC and GHRP2 raised Alphas GH level to 24......40 minutes after research.

Yes, yes...I was aware of the ModGRF1-29 and GHRP-2 reading of 24 (which was very impressive, by the way), but I was referring to CJC-1295 WITH dac.

Based on the personal experience of clients who have added Ipa or GHRP-2 to their CJC-1295 with dac, all said they experienced superior results compared to using CJC-1295 alone.

Osiris is basically saying (if I am understanding him correctly) that it is futile to add a GHRP to CJC-1295 with dac because the CJC will deplete GH stores, leaving no GH left for the GHRP to release. Unless I see proof of that, I am inclined to believe otherwise. Yes, my opinion is based only on the experience of clients, but the results appeared to be pretty convincing.

Thanks for the response.

 

[osiris]

Has anyone done any research to prove this, either on the boards or in a university? I have not done any lab work myself. However, several clients shave all reported to me that they recieved superior results when adding a GHRP to CJC (either IPA or GHRP-2).

This idea assumes that our pituitaries only have the potential to produce enough GH to elevate levels to between 2-3 over a 24 hour period, which is pretty much the upper-end of normal. I would like to see evidence for this...because if this is the case, and our pituitaries do not have the ability to produce enough GH to sustain levels outside the normal physiological range, regardless of the stimulis supplied, I would be surprised. In the typical man, fairly large amounts of GH are stored in the pituitary at any one time...much greater than what the pituitary would ever release over 24 hour period under normal circumstances. In order to ascertain how quickly GH stores are depleted when maintained at any given reading, we would need to know how quickly replenishment takes place.

More so, as with so many other hormones in the body, production ability may vary from person to person...perhaps significantly. If this is the case, then one cannot say with any certainty that adding IPA (or another GHRP) to their CJC dose, is not able to further elevate GH levels above a reading of 2-3.

i can say that i did not receive greater results when adding the ipam with the cjc with dac. Did i with cjc no/dac...hell yeah, thats because it increases the amplitude of the pulse so it makes complete sense that it would work well with the cjc no/dac. We arent discussing that compound here though.

The quoted number is 3 hours to fully replenish gh stores.

 

[osiris]

I don't think you are looking at the graph correctly. The above is with 5iu injection. It does not return to baseline rapidly. With the subQ injection your level is still at 10 at hour 8. At 12 hours it is still 3 which is higher than the DAC. So if you injected 5iu every 12 hours or 3.3 iu three times daily your area under curve is significantly higher by several magnitude.

ok got you. But with 3 injections at 3.3 we would be getting MUCH less igf conversion. We can agree i am sure that the larger the injection the greater the igf conversion, and that its not completely linear.

My plan is not to use these in isolation anyway. I honestly plan on getting my puffins gh to 2.3-3.0 around the clock, then take 10iu gh pre bed and shut down natty gh production for 4 hours or thereabouts, then have it resume at the 2.3-3.0. I will be getting a rather ridiculous igf score, a steady gh serum and one huge pulse per day.

I have never been an advocate of peptides replacing ped's i dont think they will ever reach that point but rather complimenting them. I know others look at this from different aspects but i am looking at it from a purely bodybuilding aspect asince thats the boards we advertise on(puffin bodybuilding have you). And egardless of the chart, i know what the effects were and they were not subjective as i took pictures and measurements etc and can verify that my bodyfat with no dietary changes did indeed decrease. I can only go by what works, and thats where i have to leave behind the theorycrafting and white papers. Know what i mean?

 

[osiris]

Yes, yes...I was aware of the ModGRF1-29 and GHRP-2 reading of 24 (which was very impressive, by the way), but I was referring to CJC-1295 WITH dac.

Based on the personal experience of clients who have added Ipa or GHRP-2 to their CJC-1295 with dac, all said they experienced superior results compared to using CJC-1295 alone.

Osiris is basically saying (if I am understanding him correctly) that it is futile to add a GHRP to CJC-1295 with dac because the CJC will deplete GH stores, leaving no GH left for the GHRP to release. Unless I see proof of that, I am inclined to believe otherwise. Yes, my opinion is based only on the experience of clients, but the results appeared to be pretty convincing.

Thanks for the response.

thats cool, anecdotal evidence will not always agree. I did not receive greater results during the portion i added ipam. And i would be interested how your clients qwuantified their greater results, whether through bodyfat measurements and pics or just through observations. I took measurements and god knows there are enough pics posted up here=-)

But thats ok, we can agree to disagree, the truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle=-)