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GH and Metformin

tebtengri

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Would Metformin help with the insulin sensitivity issues of GH at 2iu AM and 2iu PreW?
 

tebtengri

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Most of what I found googling was PCOS and fat women or the effect of Metformin on GHRH and GH. I'm more interested in people supplementing GH for performance and using Metformin to control sugar
 

sciroxx-lab

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TheOtherOne55

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Metformin may be a poor choice for athletes (unless suffer from type 2 known diabetes), as it hinder the body ability to exert maximum performance (you may google exercise and metformin).

IGF1 will be much more suited tool to increase insulin sensitivity while further increasing the anabolic/anti-catabolic potential of the GH - http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/articles-forum/133700-gh-igf1-should-i-combine-them.html

Yeah, I have no idea what anecdotal evidence or studies you are looking at with that answer.

SEVERAL posters on PM run metformin (or Berberine for that matter) to offset the rise in fasting blood glucose that comes with GH use.

To the OP, go to the main ProMuscle forum and type Metformin into the search box and see the TONS of threads discussing this.
 

880gtx

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Metformin 850 Ive noticed doesnt do a thing to my fasting blood glucose after a GH shot.
 

sciroxx-lab

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Yeah, I have no idea what anecdotal evidence or studies you are looking at with that answer.

SEVERAL posters on PM run metformin (or Berberine for that matter) to offset the rise in fasting blood glucose that comes with GH use.

To the OP, go to the main ProMuscle forum and type Metformin into the search box and see the TONS of threads discussing this.

Make a simply search on google, get into real data bases of scientific literature, and learn about the Metformin's negative effects on exercise, maximum performance, and also specifically on exercise's effects on glucose levels.
Metformin is suited for increasing insulin sensitivity, hence if an individual was diagnosed with diabetics then Metformin is necessary, but as an additive to GH regime for a healthy athlete in order to increase insulin sensitivity it's a poor choice and IGF1 is the solution you're aiming for
 
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MyNameIsJeff

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Make a simply search on google, get into real data bases of scientific literature, and learn about the Metformin's negative effects on exercise, maximum performance, and also specifically on exercise's effects on glucose levels.
Metformin is suited for increasing insulin sensitivity, hence if an individual was diagnosed with diabetics then Metformin is necessary, but as an additive to GH regime for a healthy athlete in order to increase insulin sensitivity it's a poor choice and IGF1 is the solution you're aiming for
Metformin does have its downsides, but it is still the best option available to address high blood glucose levels caused by GH use. So what people should do is to measure their fasting blood glucose when on GH, and only in case it is excessive (say, >95mg/dL) take Metformin.

IGF1 is not a sustainable solution to GH induced insulin resistance, in the same way that long-acting insulin is not a solution. it may help in the short term, but in the long-term it makes things worse.
 
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sciroxx-lab

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I agree that long acting insulin is not a proper solution for the GH effects on lowering insulin sensitivity

Metformin is a good solution for increasing insulin sensitivity, but it's not the ideal solution for athletes.

You may learn about the favorable effects of IGF1 on insuling sensitivtiy, both by itself and in combination with GH on a wide selection of medical literature

Just examples -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8853443

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15701568

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16624605

And generally concerning the synergistic effects between GH and IGF1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466
------------conclusions -
GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
-----------results and conclusions
RESULTS:
Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.
 

MyNameIsJeff

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I agree that IGF-1 has positive effects on insulin sensitivity generally. However, the question is whether it is useful in the specific context of chronic GH use causing insulin resistance.

The following paper gives some perspective on how IGF-1 improves insulin sensitivity:

We have investigated the metabolic actions of recombinant human IGF-1 in mice genetically deficient of insulin receptors (IR-/-). After intraperitoneal administration, IGF-1 caused a prompt and sustained decrease of plasma glucose levels in IR-/- mice. Plasma free fatty acid concentrations were unaffected. Interestingly, the effects of IGF-1 were identical in normal mice (IR+/+) and in IR-/- mice. Despite decreased glucose levels, IR-/- mice treated with IGF-1 died within 2-3 d of birth, like sham-treated IR-/- controls. In skeletal muscle, IGF-1 treatment caused phosphorylation of IGF-1 receptors and increased the levels of the phosphatidylinositol-3-kinase p85 subunit detected in antiphosphotyrosine immunoprecipitates, consistent with the possibility that IGF-1 stimulates glucose uptake in a phosphatidylinositol-3-kinase-dependent manner. IGF-1 receptor phosphorylation and coimmunoprecipitation of phosphatidylinositol3-kinase by antiphosphotyrosine antibodies was also observed in liver, and was associated with a decrease in mRNA levels of the key gluconeogenetic enzyme phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase. Thus, the effect of IGF-1 on plasma glucose levels may be accounted for by increased peripheral glucose use and by inhibition of hepatic gluconeogenesis. These data indicate that IGF-1 can mimic insulin's effects on glucose metabolism by acting through its own receptor. The failure of IGF-1 to rescue the lethal phenotype due to lack of insulin receptors suggests that IGF-1 receptors cannot effectively mediate all the metabolic actions of insulin receptors.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9153298/

So IGF1 seems to mainly exert its insulin sensitizing effects via the IGF1 receptor rather than the Insulin receptor. Both reduced gluconeogenesis and improved peripheral glucose uptake are very desirable and these are also the channels through which metformin works.

So it is tempting to conclude that IGF-1 gives all the posotive effects of Meformin w.r.t. insulin sensitivity, without metformin's downsides and some additional anabolic goodness.

There are 2 potential problems though: 1) receptor saturation and 2) receptor downregulation/desensitization

1) receptor saturation
Let's say someone takes 5Iu of pharma GH and their health is excellent. Then their IGF-1 levels will already be highly elevated. In other words, most of the IGF1 receptors will already be activated. Flooding the body with even more IGF-1 will thus only have a small marginal effect on insulin sensitivity. Much like going from 2.5g of Testosterone to 3g of Testosterone makes less of a difference than when going from 500mg to 1g. So when looking at the studies that show a significant effect of exogenous IGF-1 on insulin sensitivity in GH-deficient subjects, we cannot infer much about the effect size in GH-abusing bodybuilders

2) receptor downregulation/desensitization
IGF1 receptors are structurally very similar to insulin receptors. We know that for the latter, there is significant receptor downregulation after chronic exposure to supraphysiological insulin levels. Due to the structural similarities, it is very likely that the same is true for IGF1 receptors. Indeed, overwhelming anecdotal evidence by users of IGF1 products suggests significantly diminished effectiveness after weeks of use. So even if studies show that, acutely, IGF-1 increases insulin sensitivity, it is unlikely that this effect will persist after chronic use, at least if supraphysiological levels are used (as would be the case in GH abusing bodybuilders).

So until there are studies showing that long-term use of exogenous IGF-1 with exogenous GH can alleviate the latter's detrimental effects in insulin sensitivity, I am very skeptical. Such studies do exist for metformin and GH (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14983408) so the recommendation should be for people to use Metformin if their GH use leads to hyperglycemia (which should always be verified with a glucometer).
 

IronLion2

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"subjected to chronic metformin administration will become inefficient in their ability to produce energy (great for burning calories, not so great for competing at middle and long distance events), and display increased degredation of glucose to and reduced glucose metabolism. We’re talking about a potential average decline in cardiorespiratory ability of 3%, but up to 10%, depending on physiological individualities:

“The decline in maximal cardiorespiratory capacity with metformin treatment was statistically significant but, on average, physiologically subtle. Although a 3% decline might be critical to the performance of an elite endurance athlete, it is unlikely to be of concern to the individual doing recreational physical activity to enhance health. Some individuals responded more robustly to the metformin treatment, with declines in VO2 peak of up to 10%.” – Impact of Metformin on Peak Physical"

From Anthony Roberts
 

Elvia1023

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I am a big believer in IGF-1 and it's overall effectiveness. I have posted about it for years even when most stated it is useless and would often post only pharm grade works (silly imo). But for hgh induced insulin resistance the main drug I would look towards would be metformin. If that caused people issues then berberine and well there is a big list of useful supplements one could use. IGF-1 obviously helps (very well in some cases)but I think metformin is better and is extremely cheap as well. I look at the insulin sensitivity effects of IGF-1 as a bonus in a sense. Melanotan 2 I look at in the same regard and it's insulin sensitivity effects are a bonus but I wouldn't just dose it for that reason. I have never noticed a decrease in performance from metformin either. The only thing for me is it can upset my stomach when I first start it even at just 500mg per day.

I should add IGF-1 would probably be enough for the typical hgh user and the combo of hgh/igf1 is highly effective for bodybuilding purposes. I can only see this being an issue in sensitive individuals or people who heavily use hgh and basically take it throughout every day for long periods. Although when I start 4iu hgh per day I will still be dosing 500mg metformin pre bed.
 
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sciroxx-lab

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I am a big believer in IGF-1 and it's overall effectiveness. I have posted about it for years even when most stated it is useless and would often post only pharm grade works (silly imo). But for hgh induced insulin resistance the main drug I would look towards would be metformin. If that caused people issues then berberine and well there is a big list of useful supplements one could use. IGF-1 obviously helps (very well in some cases)but I think metformin is better and is extremely cheap as well. I look at the insulin sensitivity effects of IGF-1 as a bonus in a sense. Melanotan 2 I look at in the same regard and it's insulin sensitivity effects are a bonus but I wouldn't just dose it for that reason. I have never noticed a decrease in performance from metformin either. The only thing for me is it can upset my stomach when I first start it even at just 500mg per day.

I should add IGF-1 would probably be enough for the typical hgh user and the combo of hgh/igf1 is highly effective for bodybuilding purposes. I can only see this being an issue in sensitive individuals or people who heavily use hgh and basically take it throughout every day for long periods. Although when I start 4iu hgh per day I will still be dosing 500mg metformin pre bed.

Real life experience with athletes, along with the extensive medical literature that I relied on above have taught us to avoid Metformin (unless the individual is diagnosed with type 2 diabetics). Incorporating IGF1 (not necessarily chronically, but periodically to avoid some of the potential mentioned sides) is the answer, and there are many vets like you here who know and follow
 

Thebigone

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For me personally my IGF levels were the same while using synthetic HGH with and without Metformin. Same brands,doses,etc..
 

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