I think you're missing the overall. Dat is still saying the same thing I am saying, even in this post you brought up. It's funny, I can't believe this has been going on more than a week now. I started out by pointing out how Ron is backwards in his thinking. Course what's crazy though with Ron, there was no science offered with his statements, yet it was accepted without question. Now we're onto DatBtrue. God help me if this mans whistling a different tune than I.
Let's examine his statements out of this post you brought out.
1.
"To stop proliferation you induce differentiation. To promote proliferation you arrest differentiation."
I've been spouting this over and over again. Heh, thankfully Dat said it, now we can all be assured it's law. We'll get to what can change synthesis in Dat's post in a sec. Next he said,...
2.
"So if we keep this in mind and look at muscle we want to induce proliferation for as long as possible before inducing differentiation. Why? Because if you differentiate too early you have ended the potential to early."
Back to the fact of wanting proliferation to have time to work, otherwise you're just wasting your MGF! Again, MGF expression = proliferation. By the way, it was already pointed out in another thread re: MGF can also differentiate. I've never once even insinuated otherwise. Maybe this is being missed? If so, then God help me from now on as it appears I'm doomed to explaining every minor detail in my posts. The amount of data I generally type already, is usually exhausting enough as is. Further, rest assured when I am in disagreement with a matter, I always make it known.
In all actuality, and this is where this post is going =
MGF has an identity crisis, just like many other folks seem to have. They get around particular types of people and they begin to act differently, even acting similar. That is MGF! If IGF is hangin around, MGF will begin to differentiate just like IGF. However if the IGF is no where to be found, MGF is capable of proliferating.
To continue. Dat references a study utlizing TGF, FGF and IGF. Howver what is relevant to what I have been saying? Note the following:
3.
IGF-I stimulated proliferation to a small degree but demonstrated a more pronounced stimulation of differentiation. AND
"...differentiation with minimal proliferation resulted from treatment with IGF-I, alone."
In other words, IGF by itself and in the above study (there are other studies) IGF is partially capable of proliferation, BUT in general, invokes differentiation! Of course it has also been shown MGF can do either (proliferation or differentiation)
solely dependant upon environment! MGF, Mr. Identity Crisis himself.
Next, what did our man DatBtrue state? He said,
4.
"TGF-beta is present naturally at the time of injury," , or let's accept this as conditions met in a WO, i.e. damaged muscles, he goes on, "
When TGF-beta is depleted at the site, then the presence of IGF-1 will override MGF's proliferation activity and instead differentiation will occur."
Now without going on and on, note Dat's conclusions:
5.
"What I have always been concerned about was IGF-1 stopping MGFs actions. A full read of the study indicates that this is probably a legitimate concern."
He further said,
6.
"I had been thinking about this IGF-1 LR3 timing before and had thought that post-workout might not be the best time to administer it. This study gives some validity to my previous thoughts.
So how long to wait?
I don't know. Beyond two days would be overkill."
This to me is becoming a broken record. I've been saying over and over again you do not want to admin IGF post WO, not without waiting a while. The other day (in another thread) Dat's statements were being examined as well. I searched his thoughts on MGF at that time, wanting to verify we're not contradicting each other. Here are some quotations relevant to these concerns.
From da Dat desk,
"If you can make IGF-1 proliferate then okay but normally if differentiates. When you introduce a differentiator suddenly all of the proliferation stops and the differentiator goes about turning satellite cells into end product cells (myotubes)."
"See your native MGF expression works post workout. You don't interfere with it by inducing differentiation w/ external admin of IGF-1 until later,"
"exogenously administered IGF1 will interfere with MGF expression".
"The focus needs to be on proliferation versus differentiation. Insulin-like growth factor-I can induce proliferation in some environments in the presence of some compounds. In other environments and in the absence of those compounds it promotes differentiation."
"most studies indicate that testosterone is an inhibitory factor of cell proliferation"
Now these quotations were not taken out of any reasonable context that hasn't already been addressed. No, I didn't retain what posts I retrieved them from. However I wouldn't play that game with anyone in here. They are as they appear. Though if concerned, please search them out and we'll once again, line by line, address his statements.
Bottom line - exo IGF-1 promotes differentiation. Further, it will "interfere" or as I said, "cancels out" or blunts MGF expression. The only exception to this rule and according to this study is that TGF-beta must exist (at the damaged site) for MGF to continue proliferating in the presence of IGF-1. Anywhere else and under any other condition, IGF becomes the mediator of MGF's identity.