Admins & Engineers

[NCMAC]

Just curious to see what other real IT professional's opinions are on todays new talent.. the desktop support group where I work went through 130+ resumes to fill one measley desktop tech position.. even had one guy with a supposed master's degree in computer science that didnt know the first thing about PC hardware.. first off wtf is a guy like that doing applying for a position like that? anyway.. more towards my point in this.. I know a guy who went to an MCSE in 10 days bootcamp.. went to school his first day and passed his first exam.. got his MCSA in 4 days.. wtf? and people wonder why there is minimal new talent coming to the industry! MCSEs are now what 5.0 Mustangs were in the early 90's... everyone's got one.. Back in 2000 when I went to an MCSE program it was 10 months long.. and I still studied like crazy to pass my first exam.. now this same guy is saying he's taking a CCNA boot camp for 5 days and expects to pass on the 5th day.. call me selfish but I will be pissed off if he succeeds at this.. I worked in the industry focusing on Cisco VoIP, routing and switching exclusively for a solid year before I even started studying for my CCNA.. studied my ass off 3 solid months and passed it.. and he expects to not know dick about routers and switches, learn and pass all in 5 days..

Personally I think these bootcamp courses are a pile of shit and do nothing but discredit the prestigious nature of some of the industry certs.. as well as those that have actually earned them by experience and hard work..

Working on my CCVP now.. damn that QoS exam was a bitch..

Any other Cisco voice guys around here?

 

[knucklehed]

Systems Engineer here

Been in IT for 10 years, but I haven't taken a MS exam since NT4 days. It was 1999-2000 I would guess.. I have since got some other certs, but like you have pointed out, Paper MCSEs and other certs don't really mean much without the real experience to back it up.
The good news is I just today survived another round of layoffs, Thank God!!! Many of our jobs have been outsourced to India and the trend continues.

 

[aeliop]

UNIX System Admin/Engineer Here

I started in IT in 1991 delivering mail to Mainframe computer programmers. Worked my way up as print operator, computer operator, tape library, mainframe scheduler. In 1998 was introduced to UNIX IBM AIX while working for Lockheed Martin. Started as an operator, became an Admin. I picked up a few UNIX certifications and a Networking Engineering degree along the way. I now work as a HP UNIX/Linux/TSO System Admin for Tupperware at their world head quarters in Orlando, Florida. I worked my way up the hardway and was actually getting paid to do the things that I later went to school for. My current boss who is the most brilliant Sys Admin I have ever worked with has never been to any kind of college and he has no certifications.

 

[notsobig32]

I am with you about talent. I am a software architect and have been doing this for about ten years now. i work with the MS technologies(.net) and do almost all the hiring for my company. It seems like on average i have to go through 50-100 resumes to find someone who is intelligent enough to do the job and articulate enough to communicate effectively with other team members. I have stopped looking so much at experience and have started looking more at problem-solving capabilities and personality profiles. Everyone looks good on their resume so now i bring them in, have them whiteboard a lot, sometimes if i am in doubt i will break the laptop out and have them code, and generally just talk to them. I have a bunch of 'trick' questions i use, like:

1) Why is a manhole cover round? (i personally do not know the answer but i expect a candidate to be able to think on their feet and give me A REASON)
2) What kind of car do you drive? And why did you get that car?(my very best programmer drives a z6 and his answer was, "I am going through a midlife crisis")

i think that a lot of the technical skills can be taught over time but the thought processes behind them and the ability to solve problems is infinitely more important. This is just my 2 cents.

 

[NCMAC]

I am with you about talent. I am a software architect and have been doing this for about ten years now. i work with the MS technologies(.net) and do almost all the hiring for my company. It seems like on average i have to go through 50-100 resumes to find someone who is intelligent enough to do the job and articulate enough to communicate effectively with other team members. I have stopped looking so much at experience and have started looking more at problem-solving capabilities and personality profiles. Everyone looks good on their resume so now i bring them in, have them whiteboard a lot, sometimes if i am in doubt i will break the laptop out and have them code, and generally just talk to them. I have a bunch of 'trick' questions i use, like:

1) Why is a manhole cover round? (i personally do not know the answer but i expect a candidate to be able to think on their feet and give me A REASON)
2) What kind of car do you drive? And why did you get that car?(my very best programmer drives a z6 and his answer was, "I am going through a midlife crisis")

i think that a lot of the technical skills can be taught over time but the thought processes behind them and the ability to solve problems is infinitely more important. This is just my 2 cents.

Exactly! LOL I like the manhole question.. Aptitude is the key.. that's the only thing you cannot be taught.. kind of like genetics in bodybuilidng..

 

[notsobig32]

Exactly! LOL I like the manhole question.. Aptitude is the key.. that's the only thing you cannot be taught.. kind of like genetics in bodybuilidng..

LOL, this might be the one forum on the board where the genetics thing will not start a debate but it is identical. My personal answer when i got hired by Microsoft Consulting Services was, "Those things are heavy and you can't roll a square"=-) had one guy try to mathematically explain it to me. The best answer that i have gotten is that a round cover cannot physically fall down the hole. Even if you turn it 'diagonal' it still will not be able to fall. With a square, you can stand it on its edge and rotate it so it forms a 45% trial angle with one of the sides of the manhole and it will fall straight down.

 

[VanR__]

I took 4 CCNAs. I can't imagine passing them with just 5 days of learning.

 

[notsobig32]

I have a lot of cert's MCSD(Solution Developer), MCAD(Application Developer), VTS (Virtual technology specialist), MCITW(sharepoint and some other xrap) and MCDBA. I bought a cram guide for each and just knocked on test a day out. THey are easy with adaptive testing you can pass in 20 questions

 

[cpesloco]

I have been in IT for just over a year. I do not have any certifications at all. My boss hired me for the fact that I was computer savvy, a fast learner, and new the business we are in. She trained me herself, to be the Admin she wanted. It worked out.
I am thinking now I probably should go for some certs to give me some cred or get an additional BA in Tech.

What's the boot camp classes your talking about?

 

[notsobig32]

I have been in IT for just over a year. I do not have any certifications at all. My boss hired me for the fact that I was computer savvy, a fast learner, and new the business we are in. She trained me herself, to be the Admin she wanted. It worked out.
I am thinking now I probably should go for some certs to give me some cred or get an additional BA in Tech.

What's the boot camp classes your talking about?

CPESLOCO,

if you are going for an MCSE and work with microsoft server products, i can help you out. MS makes a great self-tutorial series for each certification. The boot camps teach you only how to take and pass the tests. Their series on MCSE is pretty robust. I can probably get you the information you need for that in e-book form. just let me know what certification you want and i will try to get you the study materials I HAVE THE STUDY COURSES for every developer certification out there.

I would jhave the Solution Architect cert from MS if i could just get my company pay for the 10k fee=_)

 

[NCMAC]

CPESLOCO,

if you are going for an MCSE and work with microsoft server products, i can help you out. MS makes a great self-tutorial series for each certification. The boot camps teach you only how to take and pass the tests. Their series on MCSE is pretty robust. I can probably get you the information you need for that in e-book form. just let me know what certification you want and i will try to get you the study materials I HAVE THE STUDY COURSES for every developer certification out there.

I would jhave the Solution Architect cert from MS if i could just get my company pay for the 10k fee=_)

Agreed.. anything titled bootcamp means shoveling as much shit at you as possible for 12 hours a day so you can pass the exam and still not know much.. I have personally found the CBT Nugget videos very helpful..google them if you've never heard of them... never used them for MS certs but I've used them a lot in the Cisco CCVP/CCNP arena.. Primarily I'm a big fan of self-study books..classes are just crazy money usually.. $3-5k for 5 days..

 

[notsobig32]

Agreed.. anything titled bootcamp means shoveling as much shit at you as possible for 12 hours a day so you can pass the exam and still not know much.. I have personally found the CBT Nugget videos very helpful..google them if you've never heard of them... never used them for MS certs but I've used them a lot in the Cisco CCVP/CCNP arena.. Primarily I'm a big fan of self-study books..classes are just crazy money usually.. $3-5k for 5 days..

And the books usually come with 'temp' licenses for whatever product you are workign with. You get a virtual pc image of Server 2008(for instance) that way you don't have to take the time to build a machine, install everything and go from there.

I use the MS ones and since i am a code jockey(.net) there really aren't any lther certifications for me. I like the self-study books too because at the end of each chapter there is a section for proactical application.

 

[cpesloco]

CPESLOCO,

if you are going for an MCSE and work with microsoft server products, i can help you out. MS makes a great self-tutorial series for each certification. The boot camps teach you only how to take and pass the tests. Their series on MCSE is pretty robust. I can probably get you the information you need for that in e-book form. just let me know what certification you want and i will try to get you the study materials I HAVE THE STUDY COURSES for every developer certification out there.

I would jhave the Solution Architect cert from MS if i could just get my company pay for the 10k fee=_)

Man that's awesome. I will keep that in mind.
Thanks
Cp