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On the superiority of Nolva and SERMS to Anti-aromatase drugs

Biggerp73

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I remember it used to seem like standard doctrine that anti-aromatase we're preferable to SERMS

But a while back I was thinking about how reducing estrogen is bad for cholesterol and can promote plaque in the veins/arteries, and I thought maybe a SERM would be better

Then about a week ago the thought crossed my mind again and I decided to do some research to see if that was true

I found a boatload of articles all showing that Nolvadex, far from damaging cholesterol numbers, actually improved them. Apparently, estrogen works in the liver to positively effect cholesterol. Of course, AIs would reduce estrogen and thus have the potential to negatively effect estrogens positive effects in the liver. But it's not just that Nolvadex allows for estrogen to remain in the system. Nolvadex isn't merely a selective estrogen receptor antagonist (like it is in breasts tissue), but it's also an agonist in some tissue. Apparently it actually signals estrogen receptors in the liver and improves cholesterol through that mechanism.

At least that's what William Lewellyn wrote.

Here are some links..



 

luki7788

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nolvadex does not eliminate excessive water retention caused by excess estrogen, the second thing is high estrogen is not for bodybuilders - it causes excess body fat to accumulate in places such as the buttocks or lower back

last thing - we use IA to control estrogen, i.e. keep it within the normal range and not remove it completely, if you do it then you have no idea how to use IA properly
 

Swifto

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Tamoxifen seems to be kinder to lipids, yes.

Not the biggest fan of AIs for the reasons mentioned above, they often trash lipids.

Your AI dose should also be considered in the presence of DHTs. I've found I dont even need an AI when using DHTs alongside, but then I dont run Test over 500mg per week.
 

jaxino

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Tamoxifene dries my up like nothing else....
I really look different when on it...

I would like to know why.

Aromasin for example dries me a bit, but seems to make me easier to crash estrogens with a dht drug. If i run 1500 sust 1250 eq 300 tren, by adding 300 masteron i start feeling all low estrogen synthomps.... Recently i am a lazy ass and i should do some blood tests...
 

Fastlifeo

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How much aromasin are you guys taking on let’s see 1200mg of test a week ?
 

Biggerp73

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nolvadex does not eliminate excessive water retention caused by excess estrogen, the second thing is high estrogen is not for bodybuilders - it causes excess body fat to accumulate in places such as the buttocks or lower back

last thing - we use IA to control estrogen, i.e. keep it within the normal range and not remove it completely, if you do it then you have no idea how to use IA properly
When I use nolvadex I notice a decrease in water retention

Luki it was just a few months ago that you sent me a private message asking me for advice when it came to controlling estrogen...

Screenshot_20220430-094328-114.png

......Drop the condescending attitude
 

luki7788

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When I use nolvadex I notice a decrease in water retention

Luki it was just a few months ago that you sent me a private message asking me for advice when it came to controlling estrogen...

View attachment 156903

......Drop the condescending attitude
haha brother, I can see that you perceive everything as a personal attack and it is not so - and the fact that I wrote that someone who uses IA reduces their estrogen to practically zero, it really means that they do not know how to choose the right dose of IA

A bit of slack, my friend, because I have noticed in more than one post that people write to you without any malice and you perceive it as a personal attack
 

Biggerp73

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haha brother, I can see that you perceive everything as a personal attack and it is not so - and the fact that I wrote that someone who uses IA reduces their estrogen to practically zero, it really means that they do not know how to choose the right dose of IA

A bit of slack, my friend, because I have noticed in more than one post that people write to you without any malice and you perceive it as a personal attack
Perhaps I did interpret your comment wrongly

I do wonder where I've ever done that in the past, however
 

luki7788

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Perhaps I did interpret your comment wrongly

I do wonder where I've ever done that in the past, however
After all, I will not search the forum for posts because I do not want to prove anything to you, just more slack, no one is attacking you. I expressed my opinion because for me nolvadex does nothing in terms of estrogenic side effects other than preventing gynecomastia. Perhaps at doses of 500-750mg the test can cope with it, but at 1-1.5g up it does absolutely nothing that can be seen
 

Fastlifeo

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nolvadex does not eliminate excessive water retention caused by excess estrogen, the second thing is high estrogen is not for bodybuilders - it causes excess body fat to accumulate in places such as the buttocks or lower back

last thing - we use IA to control estrogen, i.e. keep it within the normal range and not remove it completely, if you do it then you have no idea how to use IA properly
How much aromasin would you recommend taking a week on 1200mg of test a week and 50mg a day of Anadrol ?
 

OuchThatHurts

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Can we just settle this endless debate by just saying that everyone is very different? I have responded well to Aromasin. I feel great and bloodwork is decent. I also keep tamoxifen on hand if my nips feel funny.

Aromasin is potent enough to virtually wipe out all my aromatase at 25mg once a week or 6.25mg 2x or 3x a week on 600mg test will keep my estrogen low for several days or more. And it doesn't budge my lipids at those low dosages.

Maybe 25mg tamoxifen twice a week at >1g testosterone (but even this is a non-issue now bc I don't use that much test anymore).

If my estrogen is not extremely high but my nips are feeling funny then tamoxifen would be it at just 10mg/d for a few weeks.

If I have high circulating estrogen and signs of puffiness starting, then I'll do both but never more than 10mg tamoxifen daily because of the increased clotting risk and I say that only because I have done it in the past but again, I simply don't use enough testosterone to warrant both anymore.

These days, since my estrogen is always fairly decent levels, I'd much rather just use raloxifene than tamoxifen or Aromasin, honestly. I just haven't looked for it yet as I still have tamoxifen. But I like the idea of raloxifene being superior to tamoxifen in abrogating non-fibrous gynecomastia or puffiness around the chest.

Some guys out there are using clomiphene and letrozole/anastrozole. None of those are for me anymore unless I really wanted to compete and really dry out for a competition. Clomiphene makes me feel like death and letro is just too potent. But letrozole and anastrozole both also hit my lipids pretty harsh.
 

Biggerp73

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I think the risks with AIs re: cholesterol are mitigated if you are doing regular blood work to make sure you are using the right amount of AI for your Test dosage that that your E levels are in the right spot.

But for a lot of guys, regular blood work just isn't a reality, so running a SERM like Nolva prevents the risk of using too much and negatively effecting cholesterol as a result.
 

11sh11

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High cholesterol can be regulated with cold pressed Flax oil, and HIIT training. Adding a GDA to help partition carbs better will also mitigate cholesterol levels
 

Elvia1023

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There are so many variables to this and there is no 1 answer fits all. Forgetting genetics an example could be if you don't like high test and you use plenty of primo, eq or mast that can massively affect your need for these sort of drugs. As most people's blasts/cycles vary through the year that should also mean their AI usage should too. Out of the AI's the most lipid friendly tends to be aromasin but dose/duration will always be a huge factor. Aromasin is the one I tend to use but that usage is minimal. I will use letrozole from time to time but it's usage is even more minimal. I am a fan of nolvadex but that can come with it's own drawbacks (blood clotting being the main one).

My recommendations vary person to person and cycle to cycle. Right now I am using 20mg nolva per day on cycle for example. Even for high doses of aromatizing drugs most people do well using as little as possible as long as it's enough to keep estrogen in a targeted range. I am fairly relaxed with this but again my test dosage is a big factor but even with a higher dose of test I will use at most 12.5mg aromasin ed (25mg eod) and that is enough for me. Quite frankly AI's can come with just as many (if not more) side effects than the steroids themselves for many people.

So to answer your question yes nolvadex can be a great aid but mainly for combatting gyno. If using aromatizing drugs I would still recommend some AI to prevent that aromatization in the first place. For that anything from 6.25-25mg aromasin daily (or equilvalent EOD/E3D or EW dosing) should be used. On a decent blast I usually go with 25mg aromasin EOD with 20mg nolva used periodically.
 

MasteroniPepperoni

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nolvadex does not eliminate excessive water retention caused by excess estrogen, the second thing is high estrogen is not for bodybuilders - it causes excess body fat to accumulate in places such as the buttocks or lower back

last thing - we use IA to control estrogen, i.e. keep it within the normal range and not remove it completely, if you do it then you have no idea how to use IA properly
Yeah, and if you use nolva to mask high estro, you now have two risk associated with blood clots
 

Reno911

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Ideally I think it's best to set up cycle design so that an AI is not needed (Although at 1g+ Test AI may need to be deployed) I've never really been able to dial in Estro levels with AI use very well even with regular bloodwork.

In the past I have preferred Nolva, but with what's "going on" right now I think Ralox is a better choice.

Just got my bloods back last week running the below:

600 Test C
300 Mast
300 Primo
*no AI or SERM
Total Test: 2797
Free Test: 1276
Estradiol: 32
Total: Cholesterol: 166
LDL: 115
HDL: 40
Remnant: 11
Trigs: 39 (using 1,000mg Synthetine/day). Trigs always drop on Inj L Car

Note: HDL is staying decent on this cycle which is odd since Primo usually dings me pretty good. LDL is higher than I like even while on cycle. 10mg of Cardarine in play and a host of natural supps for cholesterol.
 

Fa Seeshus

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I've linked all the studies on here before.
Raloxifene has less risk of causing thrombosis, less risk of causing fatty liver and less decrease of igf1 than nolva. One advantage of nolva might be availability if you don't have Rx. TRT docs can prescribe ralox and insurance will cover.
Everyone is different though. I like ralox because it also seems to help my joints and tendons too. It is prescribed to some people to help osteoporosis.

AI's are different for everyone because we all convert and excrete stuff differently... They even have varying effects on DHT levels. This might be why some people get different libido and hair loss effects from the different AIs (my apologies if this confuses people more).


Also they all take different lengths of time to build up and kick in. For example with exemestane I find after a while you might actually need slightly less since it is a suicidal inhibitor, while with something like armidex you might have to increase. You really can't tell until you have regular bloods drawn.

Again tons of misleading bro science on AIs and SERMs. Funny thing is that Nolva is actually the one shown in studies to be best at jumping test levels after cycle... Even better than clomid. Of course tons of people stick with the clomid and unnecessarily suffer through seeing spots and having weird ass emotional rollercoasters. I dunno, maybe they like that.
 

specter

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I know John Meadows had blood work that showed his estrogen levels went down when he was using only nolvadex, i believe there is a paper showing that one of the metabolites of nolva acts as a weak AI.
 

Rumpwrangler

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I will avoid taking AIs for the rest of my life. Instead, I will not use lots of stuff that aromatizes heavily. And use nolva instead to keep nips tight.

i can’t cite studies of even give facts. But for me, I believe they leech nutrients and strength from the bones. And that’s a huge concern for later in life for me. I will just say no to aromatase inhibitors.
 

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