kidney damage -> toxins in blood stream

[Fluffy_XL]

Hi guys,

so if you have certain cases of kidney damage the kidneys don't manage to filter properly which makes you end up with several kinds of toxins or rather toxic elements in your blood stream.

This leads to itchy skin, rashes, fatigue and maybe even more shitty conditions.

Now of course one should try to keep the kidneys safe, don't overdo on the drugs and so on. Nevertheless the damage might have been done already and I'd like to know more about limitation of damage or rather how to cope with above mentioned consequences/conditions.

I figured that you might be able to kind of reduce those conditions by the use of maybe antioxidants ...VitC, VitE, OPC, Resveratrol, whatever.
I don't know if those even "attack" toxins like urea and others which won't be filtered enough by the kidneys.

Hope you guys know what I mean or what I'm trying to find out. Maybe there's no fix to this or I'm on the wrong train of thought.

Can somebody chime in and help me out?

Cheers

 

[thethinker48]

Kidney damage at the level where you have itchy skin, rashes, and fatigue usually happens near stage 4 CKD, or End stage renal failure

No antioxidant is fixing that or countering any effects of it. You have to realize the things you are calling toxins like potassium, and albumin serve functions in the body. It's only when they are critically elevated, and aren't excreted that they compromise other functions in the body (ex. hyperkalemia and cardiovascular issues).

The reason dialysis becomes the only viable solution after a certain point is because things like sudden cardiac death become a far greater risk in people.

You can try high dosing astragalus, but really work with a nephrologist and PCP on this issue as well if you have compromised kidney function.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Hi there,

thanks for your message. Very depressing, deflating and also scaring.

I was not aware of this urgency since I thought those symptoms are some kind of common or at least things ppl want to look out for if they have a suspicion towards CKD or nephritis.

Do you know if high protein intake does interfere here directly?
Of course you want to reduce protein to have a better idea of the status of your proteinuria and general kidney function but does higher protein intake directly increase those "toxins" besides albumin (obviously)?

I use Astragalus, Cordyceps, angelica, TUDCA, Pycnogenol and OPC. Do you have a wise addition regarding kidney health?
And no I don't rely on supps here but I just want to do the optimum.

 

[thethinker48]

I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm not a physician. I know a little bit about this through my dad who passed away from kidney failure a little while back, and I had several dealings with multiple nephrologists in regards to his condition for years leading up to his cardiac arrest.

CKD is evident for YEARS in bloodwork way before symptoms manifest themselves. That's why they call kidney disease a silent killer, you can have a 50% reduction in your kidney function, and still feel seemingly fine.

Have you ran blood work? Spoken to a doc about this?

If you do have compromised kidney function, especially to the point where physical symptoms start manifesting; I would consider completely foregoing the bodybuilding lifestyle. That includes the high (often times excess) protein intake that bodybuilders eat.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Another important question (sorry I somehow can't edit my last post):

Do you recommend cutting out all supplements - especially Astragalus - before checking blood and urine so that the nephrologist has a clear view on your kidneys' status without any cover-up or affect due to Astragalus on GFR or things alike?
Maybe it doesn't even matter?!

 

[IronLion2]

If you're kidneys are failing the last thing you want to do is add shit it needs to filter out

 

[IronLion2]

Another important question (sorry I somehow can't edit my last post):

Do you recommend cutting out all supplements - especially Astragalus - before checking blood and urine so that the nephrologist has a clear view on your kidneys' status without any cover-up or affect due to Astragalus on GFR or things alike?
Maybe it doesn't even matter?!

Cut them all out and be 100% transparent with your lifestyle.

 

[qbkilla]

you have been having these symptoms for how long? Have you seen a doctor about your kidneys? Have you been diagnosed? Creatinine levels? A little confused by the posts.

I would definitely lower protein, hydrate well, eliminate anything that can cause you to have high blood pressure (excess weight etc).

 

[thethinker48]

Another important question (sorry I somehow can't edit my last post):

Do you recommend cutting out all supplements - especially Astragalus - before checking blood and urine so that the nephrologist has a clear view on your kidneys' status without any cover-up or affect due to Astragalus on GFR or things alike?
Maybe it doesn't even matter?!

Yes, what IronLion said

You want a clear picture. The benefits of astragalus are both dose and intake dependant, it'll elevate your GFR when on, but bring it back down to baseline when off.

You want to check what's going on without it

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Yes, I get tests in on a regular and will speak to the nephrologist soon again.

Last time we spoke I had slightly bigger kidneys which didn't concern the doc too much but my severe proteinuria did.
So I didn't touch Tren and Orals anymore and tried to adjust with supps and lifestyle the best way possible ...though doing BB diet and training.

Next test I went TRT and almost 1g of protein/kg bodyweight for only one week prior but didn't stop supps like Astragalus and so on.
Result was a clear decrease of the proteinuria which I was glad about. Some other figures also became better (liver for example) but others went a little worse (triglycerides, CO2-levels in blood and alike).
At this time of course I already stopped supplementing calcium, potassium, creatine (not sure if that's really an issue) and some other things.
Problem: it was already Corona time so I didn't speak to the doc but only get back my results. Will catch up on this now.

Basically I'm always trying to do the optimum in order to extend doing BB which is probably dumb.

 

[danieltx]

What's your blood pressure been for the last few years? If elevated, do you use prescription blood pressure medication?

Below is a good interview with Justin Harris from a few years ago where he again reinforces that blood pressure is the top problem that leads to all other issues with bodybuilders - heart, kidney, etc. Harris was an echocardiographer for years and has a lot of real-world experience with this.

Talk on blood pressure starts at 38:05 -

 

[qbkilla]

did they find the protein in your urine because they were taking urine to look at kidneys? reason I ask, I had a std and mine was elevated and the doctors said don't worry about it, an std will make urine a mess. creatinine I believe can also be harmful for kidneys. maybe eating reasonable protein and lowering protein intake helped? did you get creatinine levels (blood test)?

 

[Fluffy_XL]

qbkilla, basically it all started in the summer of 2018.
Until then I only had some periods of a lil high blood pressure but got it fixed ...nothing severe or constant.

So in summer 2018 I really overdid tren stupidly. If I remember correctly there was no blood pressure problem nor severe dehydration but still the kidneys got beatings.

There have been some very hot days this summer and I only sat in the office but I got bad edema on my feet which of course concerned me.
I visited a doc that day and if I remember correctly he saw a bit of proteinuria, albumin and so on.
Of course I kinda shit my pants and went HRT ...everything became better and I didn't have issues any longer.

Though since then I observe (maybe I do over-interpret sometimes) some "kidney damage" symptoms.
None is constant but I do often have a bit water on ancles and feet. Now I'm a little fat and my family looks similar but I'm sure it's something.
Itchy/dry skin, a few red dots (referred to as rashes above) on the skin come and go ...rarely I'm "too" out of breath after heavy sets and even more rare I have a pounding sensation in the area which might be close to where the kidneys are ...very unsure about that.

So my nephrologist said that the kidneys did take beatings but maybe it might be reversable if proteinuria goes normal after eating low protein for several weeks.
Since that was several months ago and in the meantime I'm not that naive anymore I'm sure that there is a severe problem but I'm not yet sure about consequences in the long run and how they change if lifestyle changes completely.

Right now stopping BB completely will probably be quite devastating for me for a long time. Of course that's the way to go and I don't want gamble with my life but maybe I can pursue BB a few more years? I'm already distancing myself from other BB, shows, Instagram and stuff. I'm doing it for the fun and my self-esteem only. No need for being "ripped" or super muscular or even doing shows.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

What's your blood pressure been for the last few years? If elevated, do you use prescription blood pressure medication?

Below is a good interview with Justin Harris from a few years ago where he again reinforces that blood pressure is the top problem that leads to all other issues with bodybuilders - heart, kidney, etc. Harris was an echocardiographer for years and has a lot of real-world experience with this.

Talk on blood pressure starts at 38:05 -

Thank you sir. Blood pressure started to become an issue some years into BB on PED - nothing severe.
Yes there must have been periods where BP was too high for some time ...wasn't good but can't have had a huge impact.
For years now I can control my BP very easily with candesartan (hope you guys in the US know that name).
There are no spikes or anything alike and I play it safe: common numbers are something like 117/78 or so.
Therefore I think that BP will only become an issue again if the kidneys basically completely shut down.
Diabetes/blood sugar is also not an issue and I go Metformin for several weeks 1-2 times a year or so.
Otherwise supps to control the BP of course.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

did they find the protein in your urine because they were taking urine to look at kidneys? reason I ask, I had a std and mine was elevated and the doctors said don't worry about it, an std will make urine a mess. creatinine I believe can also be harmful for kidneys. maybe eating reasonable protein and lowering protein intake helped? did you get creatinine levels (blood test)?

thanks for sharing. actually 1-2 times in the last years I had a suspicion regarding STD but afaik I'm healthy regarding this and there was never a STD diagnosed.

Afaik creatinine is not the most reliable marker for kidney health. My creatinine figures are like this (md/dl):

August 2018: 1,1
May 2019: 0,99
June 2019: 1,27
December 2019: 1,1
April 2020: 1,09

 

[qbkilla]

I hope everything is ok. Judging on your creatinine numbers, those are good, if your a bodybuilder and carrying extra weight. The 2 things I watch are the creatinine and the protein in urine, and your creatinine looks solid.

 

[muscle96ss]

Hi guys,

so if you have certain cases of kidney damage the kidneys don't manage to filter properly which makes you end up with several kinds of toxins or rather toxic elements in your blood stream.

This leads to itchy skin, rashes, fatigue and maybe even more shitty conditions.

Now of course one should try to keep the kidneys safe, don't overdo on the drugs and so on. Nevertheless the damage might have been done already and I'd like to know more about limitation of damage or rather how to cope with above mentioned consequences/conditions.

I figured that you might be able to kind of reduce those conditions by the use of maybe antioxidants ...VitC, VitE, OPC, Resveratrol, whatever.
I don't know if those even "attack" toxins like urea and others which won't be filtered enough by the kidneys.

Hope you guys know what I mean or what I'm trying to find out. Maybe there's no fix to this or I'm on the wrong train of thought.

Can somebody chime in and help me out?

Cheers

I am writing this right now, sitting in my hospital room ironically recovering from renal failure of my transplanted kidney. I can tell you from real world experience, do everything you can right now to prevent your kidneys from deteriorating any further. Once you get to a certain point there is no recovery and I cannot put into words how horrible the experience goes from there. Unfortunately, mine happened too suddenly that I didn't have a chance to stop the cascade(immune system related). You on the other hand have a chance to prevent further damage. See an experienced neprhologist and have them do a biopsy to see what the actual damage currently is and go from there. Also, keep your BP in check, it is essential.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Thank you for chiming in muscle96ss - wish you all the best.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

The nephrologist office just told me it doesn't make sense to talk about my figures from several weeks ago (couldnt talk to the doc bc of Corona).

I now made appointments for drawing blood and urine (8/24/2020) and talking about the results with the doc (8/26/2020).

My plan is to go full HRT, 0,8g protein/kg bodyweight, no coke nor dairy and no supplements from 7/27/2020 on.
Should I keep on taking things like CoQ10, Fishoil, citrus bergamot and stuff? Maybe cutting them out 2 week prior?

Are dietary changes besides protein intake maybe counterproductive for the results? Mb they'll kinda cover-up my real status?

 

[Flex500]

The nephrologist office just told me it doesn't make sense to talk about my figures from several weeks ago (couldnt talk to the doc bc of Corona).

I now made appointments for drawing blood and urine (8/24/2020) and talking about the results with the doc (8/26/2020).

My plan is to go full HRT, 0,8g protein/kg bodyweight, no coke nor dairy and no supplements from 7/27/2020 on.
Should I keep on taking things like CoQ10, Fishoil, citrus bergamot and stuff? Maybe cutting them out 2 week prior?

Are dietary changes besides protein intake maybe counterproductive for the results? Mb they'll kinda cover-up my real status?

Something isn't adding up here and I don't mean any offense I think it's just a communication gap. All your creatinine levels look good...not just good...they are literally the same as my 90 year old grandma who is healthy as a horse. Of course, creatinine doesn't necessarily elevate until you lose a lot of kidney function but if you are a bodybuilder those are just very low numbers for quite a long period of time.

Do you have more information about proteinuria you experienced? What it just a standard dipstick test, was it an albumin/creatinine ratio urine test? That is a great test and will often show kidney issues YEARS before you have a major issue. Or was it just a one time, one off urine test that showed some protein?

I guess my question is if you have these kidney issues there is a massive amount of testing you can do to get an overall picture of your total health and it seems you don't really know that picture. Honestly I'd just get off everything and get your bloods completed and see what's what.