If ~200mg weekly is high-normal natural test equivelant...

[jrs]

1) What would have been the natural equivalent say 1000 years ago vs now? (This could get heavy into an evolution discussion.. which would be interesting..)

2) Why we still can be civil human beings on doses 10x as much? When I first thought about what a difference that is, I wondered how pro bodybuilders can still function in society just fine.

3) 600mg weekly was the amount used in a long-term study published in the New England Journal of Medicine that showed almost ZERO side affects whatsoever. Why do our bodies produce so little? I'd think the libido, strength, and other positive benefits would be good reason for the amounts our bodies produce to be higher.

 

[RexHead]

3) 600mg weekly was the amount used in a long-term study published in the New England Journal of Medicine that showed almost ZERO side affects whatsoever. Why do our bodies produce so little? I'd think the libido, strength, and other positive benefits would be good reason for the amounts our bodies produce to be higher.

Would you post a citation for the study your referencing?

I have read the following one. BTW, at the end of the 20 week study the only negative effect was the average HDL level was 34 points. I'd like to see the results of the study you mentioned. While 34 isn't bad, it's definately under the normal and I wonder if it would go lower with longer use.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men. Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Dec;281(6):E1172-81.Related Articles, Links

 

[Golgo13]

...

2) Why we still can be civil human beings on doses 10x as much? When I first thought about what a difference that is, I wondered how pro bodybuilders can still function in society just fine.
...

There are two opinions on Steroid mood swings, (rage), one is that only Tren and or Cheque Drops do this, the other is that its a total myth. Take your pick. I know a lot of people who take a lot of anabolics and I have never met a single person who had any behavioral problems because of it.

 

[jrs]

*This is the best study to date that I'm aware of. 600mg weekly, Bodyfat wasn't measured with outdated calipers, Benching and Squatting were measured on a constant, controlled progression training routine for all subjects. Not leg extension or something stupid. All levels were checked and returned NO side affects. A couple zits and tender nipples across 20 people using test (and 1 who wasn't lol). That's IT.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/downlo...on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men.pdf

 

[jrs]

There are two opinions on Steroid mood swings, (rage), one is that only Tren and or Cheque Drops do this, the other is that its a total myth. Take your pick. I know a lot of people who take a lot of anabolics and I have never met a single person who had any behavioral problems because of it.

I agree with that completely. This is a clip from that study I just posted;

"No differences were found between the exercise
groups and the no-exercise groups or between the
placebo groups and the testosterone groups in any
of the five subcategories of anger assessed by the
Multidimensional Anger Inventory. No significant
changes in mood or behavior were reported by the
men on the Mood Inventory or by their live-in partners,
spouses, or parents on the Observer Mood Inventory."

I was talking regarding sex drive, decision making, drive, and physically. Many guys have much bigger muscles, but not much change facially for example. Just examples.

 

[vadim_b1]

first of all its 100 mg weekly

secondly we dont really know, but i agree with you that our ancestors might very well have had higher test levels. It was necessary for procreation, and survival.
Besides we werent bombarded by huge amounts of industrial poisons daily, many of which have estrogenic effects on our bodies.

btw something relevant to the topic
Just an observation i made today in a subway train, two males in their twenties compared to two males of about 45-50 yrs old sitting next to them, the old timers CLEARLY had more manly features... and it wasnt due to their age
and its not the first time im noticing this

 

[jrs]

LAST of all, we know that it varies per person. some using 200mg are still UNDER the limit of the high range (using cyp, not enanthate). It was an approximation, hence the ~

very interesting observation though. noticed the same thing for the most part

 

[BALDNAZI]

Vadim

first of all its 100 mg weekly

secondly we dont really know, but i agree with you that our ancestors might very well have had higher test levels. It was necessary for procreation, and survival.
Besides we werent bombarded by huge amounts of industrial poisons daily, many of which have estrogenic effects on our bodies.

btw something relevant to the topic
Just an observation i made today in a subway train, two males in their twenties compared to two males of about 45-50 yrs old sitting next to them, the old timers CLEARLY had more manly features... and it wasnt due to their age
and its not the first time im noticing this

I thought about this recently. I am noticing this ALOT lately. It just seems the younger generation is very feminized overall. They do not seem "manly" anymore. It could be social (we could be noticing the way they act, dress, speak etc.) but my bet is lower test levels and higher estrogens from what you stated. Something is wrong here. These are not men from our forefathers time...

 

[wostok]

Yeah i remember i have read in a science magazine that the testosterone levels in males is lower for every new generation.

To much poisons in the water and air.

 

[Beachmuscle]

I noticed the same thing, guys that are skinny, squeaky girl voice, and no balls! all emotional, "Emo" kids, little pussy that kiss girls ass.

I thought about this recently. I am noticing this ALOT lately. It just seems the younger generation is very feminized overall. They do not seem "manly" anymore. It could be social (we could be noticing the way they act, dress, speak etc.) but my bet is lower test levels and higher estrogens from what you stated. Something is wrong here. These are not men from our forefathers time...

 

[Beachmuscle]

There are two opinions on Steroid mood swings, (rage), one is that only Tren and or Cheque Drops do this, the other is that its a total myth. Take your pick. .

agree one hundred percent, also if they are jerks off, they will be jerks on! nice guys off are usually the same on, comes down to self control!

 

[vadim_b1]

something doesnt add up here

it seems that low testosterone is now an epidemic among young men. Pharm companies could be making MILLIONS administering TRT, yet its being constantly frowned upon.
They could make a lot more money on this than things like statins or antidepressants which are handed out like candy nowadays.

Are they simply stupid (which im having a hard time believing in) or is there some other agenda going on?

 

[King-kong]

IMO
Most studies involving agressiveness (roid rage) are flawed. Most individuals who would take such supplements are likely competitive or agressive in nature already. I know one individual in particular that is huge and commonly has roid rage issues and guess what - he was a complete ass long before but now associates blame it on the steroids.
As far as test levels in history - I would have to go with Darwins Theory of Natural Selection. I am certain that an individual with low test levels would have certainly been eaten up by a t-rex before someone with high levels.

 

[vadim_b1]

they cant really be that concerned with "roid rage"...

progesterone for example causes far worse mood swings than any androgen out there

 

[Beachmuscle]

they cant really be that concerned with "roid rage"...

progesterone for example causes far worse mood swings than any androgen out there

Explains alot of manic crazy insane women and how they act.

 

[Beachmuscle]

Are they simply stupid (which im having a hard time believing in) or is there some other agenda going on?

Bingo, that's what I think. Make us all subservient pussies... easily manipulated and controlled.

There's a study that says only 13% of people can think for themselves... the other 87% need to be led, to be told what to do.

A scary thought.

The definition of a "Man" has changed dramatically in the last 15 years.

It's pretty sad.

 

[alecaf]

IMO
Most studies involving agressiveness (roid rage) are flawed. Most individuals who would take such supplements are likely competitive or agressive in nature already. I know one individual in particular that is huge and commonly has roid rage issues and guess what - he was a complete ass long before but now associates blame it on the steroids.
As far as test levels in history - I would have to go with Darwins Theory of Natural Selection. I am certain that an individual with low test levels would have certainly been eaten up by a t-rex before someone with high levels.

this is a good point, and now that testosterone doesn't determine our survival because there are no threats like T-rex's we simply don't need high testosterone levels.

 

[Ironmanpits]

Its evolution right before your eyes....everything is easier now days...no more hard labor...we have tools and machines to make everything easy...and as was mentioned the environmental toxins surely cant be helping...how many people who even go to the gym work hard?? most are there to socialize and fuck off...we are going to shit in a hurry! People are eating worse and doing less...look at the average teen...they live on poptarts and soda...in the old days mom cooked real food and thats all you ate....all there was to drink in my house was milk or water!

 

[dan0]

Explains alot of manic crazy insane women and how they act.

ahahhh so true.

 

[SisyphusRocks]

I thought about this recently. I am noticing this ALOT lately. It just seems the younger generation is very feminized overall. They do not seem "manly" anymore. It could be social (we could be noticing the way they act, dress, speak etc.) but my bet is lower test levels and higher estrogens from what you stated. Something is wrong here. These are not men from our forefathers time...

I watched some show on PBS or Discovery a few months ago about global
warming and they were talking about how plastic bottles leach estrogen or a
chemical that caused the body to up the estrogen. This is in baby bottles
and the other bottles that gatorade, soda, & other drinks come in. This is probably why these kids are a bunch of pussies.

I think the human body only produces the bare minimum of what
testosterone is needed to be efficient.More test means more body mass
which means more food needed.Not the ideal situation for a human
who has to hunt or gather food. Some people are naturally larger though
and I think just working out or staying active helps the body keep the
testosterone production higher than someone who is sedentary.