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clomid alone for HRT

so, say you do 2 weeks of hcg 500ius /day with asin 12.5 mg ed for that 2 weeks and 2 weeks thereafter....then 6 weeks of 25mg clomid and 20 mg nolva.............are you saying you'd be better off dropping the clomid after 2 weeks and running the nolva for 6?..................and this is talking of a 44 yr old guy thats been on for 1.5 yrs...........i would think the nuts could use every ounce of help...........but if 2 weeks is better than 6 i'm all for it, just have never seen this b4, id like this to continue as its seems enlightening
 
It comes down to checking out what made you have low testosterone in the first place. In some cases AI/SERM may be useful, but if your testicles are fried and reject to produce testosterone even if LH is high I do not think you have any alternative to TRT.

What you said is true, but the opinion I'm trying to express is a different argument. For many people, clomid or nolva can help normalize T levels, as well as protect testicles from atrophy. That is fine, on a short-term basis.

But I'm questioning the desirability of using an estrogen agonist on a long-term basis regardless of the cause of the hypogonadism. We don't need board members glued to the TV watching reruns of Grey's Anatomy.

Maybe I'm off-base and there are a bunch of people using clomid successively for HRT.
 
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I am trying now for trt. I have a lot of steroid history so don't want to go test route until that is my last option. Been taking 25mg a day now for 3 days. Woke up this morning with a semi wood and then a real wood when I thought about it. Still early but we will see.
 
I am trying now for trt. I have a lot of steroid history so don't want to go test route until that is my last option. Been taking 25mg a day now for 3 days. Woke up this morning with a semi wood and then a real wood when I thought about it. Still early but we will see.

lol

on a serious note, 25mg seems to be the dose that gets the job done and keeps sides very minimal
 
lol

on a serious note, 25mg seems to be the dose that gets the job done and keeps sides very minimal

Correct. There are also studies out there where this dosage was given for a year straight.

Female Fertility Drug May Combat Age-Related Male Testosterone Deficiency
Columbia University Medical Center Researchers Evaluate New Therapy
New York, NY (Apr 29, 2003)

A drug used with great success to enhance fertility in women may also play a new role for the opposite sex-increasing low testosterone levels in men. The drug, clomiphene citrate (commonly known as Clomid*), is currently under study by researchers at the Male Reproductive Center at Columbia University Medical Center at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital, as an alternative to currently available treatment options (which while effective, can cause multiple complications).

Results of a preliminary study were announced today, April 29, 2003, at the American Urological Association Annual Meeting in Chicago.

The results of our pilot study of clomiphene citrate indicate that it may have a significant new application. We've been able to show that it is very effective in raising male testosterone levels without the side effects usually associated with current therapies for this condition, says Harry Fisch, MD, director of the Center and associate clinical professor of urology at Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons.

Declining testosterone levels can cause problems for many men as they age. Coupled with an increase in estrogen levels, this change in sex hormone levels may result in adverse effects on libido, sexual function, mood and behavior (such as depression, fatigue, irritability, memory loss, decrease in intellectual activity), lean body mass, and bone density, as well as the development of diabetes, weight gain, and muscle weakness.

It is known that average serum testosterone levels decrease by 1 percent per year after age 40; hypogonadism is detected in 20 percent of men older than 60 years. Hypogonadism in aging males affects over 5 million Americans. This decrease in testosterone production, or hypogonadism, in aging men is a combination of hypothalamus-pituitary axis dysfunction and testicular dysfunction with a consequent decreased production of testosterone. Luteinizing hormone (LH) levels in these men frequently are within the normal range despite low testosterone levels, which indicates potential hypothalamic-pituitary dysfunction rather than primary testicular failure (abnormal high LH levels are associated with primary testicular failure).

Clomiphene citrate is a weak estrogen receptor antagonist that competes with estradiol (the most potent of the naturally occurring estrogens produced by both men and women) for the estrogen receptors at the level of the hypothalamus (the drug was recently reclassified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator [SERM] because of this ability). It blocks the normal negative feedback of circulating estradiol on the hypothalamus, which prevents estrogen from limiting the production of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). The resulting increase in GnRH level then stimulates the pituitary gland to release more follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and LH, resulting in increased sperm and testosterone production by the testes.

Current treatment options for this type of hypogonadism in men are limited to testosterone supplementation via gels, patches, or intramuscular injections. These treatments can be associated with multiple side effects such as skin irritation, abnormally increased breast size, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and sperm count decline. Testosterone pills have been used in Europe and have been associated with liver and gastrointestinal dysfunction.

Because of the combination of hypothalamus-pituitary axis dysfunction and testicular dysfunction seen in these men and because of the adverse effects of current therapies, we decided to explore means of causing the body to make more testosterone itself, rather than add testosterone to it from an outside source, explains Dr. Fisch. The increase in testosterone would then be accomplished without side effects, he adds.

The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.
No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews. Some experienced these changes in as little as three months of therapy, points out Dr. Fisch.

According to Dr. Fisch, this preliminary study revealed some promising results. We've been able to show that clomiphene citrate induces internal production of testosterone via blockage of the hypothalamic estrogen receptor. This effect presents a unique therapeutic opportunity for the management of hypogonadism in aging men. Low-dose oral therapy with minimum side effect may prove to be an excellent substitute to transdermal or injectable testosterone alternatives. However, further investigation is needed, as well as phase II studies that will determine the optimal dose for different age groups. And methodical measurements of muscle strength, weight, sexual function, exercise tolerance, bone density, and mood changes are required before accepting this drug as a standard of care for hypogonadism, he concludes.
 
yeah, that's what i read, so 6 weeks at 25mg seems fine to me, it would actually be 4 weeks at 25 and 2 at 12.5, coupled with nolva 4 weeks 20 and 2 weeks 10................from everything i've seen and been told, when you've been on a long time its actually best to use more than one serm
 
Clomid is simply horrible for me to take. Even at super small doses. I could not imagine being on it long term. Extreme emotional swings, acne, lethargy, etc.

I had an endo recommend it instead of test for HRT. He wanted me to run it for 3-4 months and watch test results, to see if we could avoid long term test.

I couldn't even make it 2 weeks. That stuff does not agree with me at all.
 
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Clomid is simply horrible for me to take. Even at super small doses. I could not imagine being on it long term. Extreme emotional swings, acne, lethargy, etc.

I had an endo recommend it instead of test for HRT. He wanted me to run it for 3-4 months and watch test results, to see if we could avoid long term test.

I couldn't even make it 2 weeks. That stuff does not agree with me at all.

i have to agree. i was on clomid 50mg a day for 8 months to get my wife pregnant, shit turned me into a real ass hole!!!!!! now the wife is pregnant, and the doc has me on 125mg a week cyp, couldnt feel any better!
 
Clomiphene instead of TRT

I have been on TRT for three years now. I was injecting 40mg of test cyp EOD and 250 ius Hcg EOD. I used anastrozole EOD starting at .25mg. My lab results for E2 keep going up so I kept adding in more AI. I was using 1mg a day up to last Tuesday.

I went to see Dr Eugene Shippen hear in Pa (he published a book about 10 years ago called The Testosterone Syndrome). I highly recommend everyone read it. A base line hormone panel is a great idea for anyone as early as possible so you know what you want to try and maintain once things start to fade.

He recommended I try just the Clomiphene to see if my testicals could produce enough to get the desired results. He suggested that being on testosterone can lead to receptor desensitization. I think I was feeling that. He has seen a lot of patients both men and women for hormone replacement therapy and he is a very big advocate for the benefits of testosterone replacement (men and women), estrogen replacement (for women) and human growth hormone. I am sure if he thought it was the best option he would recommend staying with what I was doing but in my case this was worth a try as with many who find there test levels dropping. We all may need replacement eventually but simply increasing your own out put appears to be the best starting point. I see how I feel on the optimum dose once we nail that down.
Like TRT you need to get baseline numbers and then start low and work your way up. Using too much will not make you feel better. I believe you will feel the adverse side affects from taking too high a dose. He has me starting at 15mg eod with blood work after 3 weeks. Once we get the dose right we are going to do a 24 hour urine test from Rhine again.
Oh another note, he recommended the 24 hour urine test before I even saw him and did not read that I was taking 120mg of test eod. I anyone was ever curious what your lab numbers look like on that much test, I’ll post them. Unfortunately they are from the Urine test so I cannot compare them to my previous blood work but needless to say there were many parameters well over the range.
Feel free to PM me if your interested. I’ll probably start a thread on another forum that deals with trt.
 
i was on,25mg clomid 12.5 aromastin for 2 years kept my test in 600 range. no sides, just slowly stoped working.
 
one of the top HRT Dr's out there started using 12.5mg/day on his patients. and is getting recent results so far from what i hear.
 
I wouldn't use clomid for anything the sides are bad but that is me personally I would rather keep my vision than to loose it for good. Clomid has that as one of the main side effects blurred vision and permanent loss of vision.
 
I've been on clomid for 4 months and now on TRT. The interesting thing is my urologist still has me taking 25 mg of clomid ED. I guess he is trying to keep my pituitary firing so it will be easier to come off down the road.
 
I wouldn't use clomid for anything the sides are bad but that is me personally I would rather keep my vision than to loose it for good. Clomid has that as one of the main side effects blurred vision and permanent loss of vision.

This^^^^^^ id never consider clomid for HRT
 
what does everyone think of clomid alone for hrt?
I read a few things on this from other boards and it looks bad.

My experience: Sense of well being and some trails with vision
with doses above 100mg ED.

Other then that I like 50mg EO it makes me feel very good while off
gear. I got same sense of well being and a lot more feeling good from
tren but for now I am trying to stay off gear. .. Just for now.

I am thinking of running the Clomid to feel good and increase natural test
and Cialis when I need it to go more than an hr which I need cause I get
tired now.

I used to go for a few hrs on Tren but now I get tired.

The hrs come from the Lexapro keeping me from getting off.

Please, any replies are welcome.

Thank you,
Mantus

Clomid alone can work fine. When I was diagnosed with hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism (low LH, low FSH, low T), my andrologist put me on a measly half a tab--repeat, HALF A TAB--of clomid everyday and it brought my T levels from an abnormal 240 ng/dl to a healthy, high normal 800 ng/dl!

I used that for a few months, and have used Androgel and Testim ever since. My levels consistently stay at 700 to 1000 ng/dl.
 
I wouldn't use clomid for anything the sides are bad but that is me personally I would rather keep my vision than to loose it for good. Clomid has that as one of the main side effects blurred vision and permanent loss of vision.

Those kinds of side effects only show up with megadosing, which is not needed with Clomid, even for PCT purposes. Clinical doses used by endos are MUCH smaller (10mg to 25mg usually, 50mg MAX), and have a good safety record, even for long term usage.

Clomid gets a bad rep because people keep on megadosing it for no good reason.
 
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