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clomid alone for HRT

MantusJohn

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Oct 30, 2010
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what does everyone think of clomid alone for hrt?
I read a few things on this from other boards and it looks bad.

My experience: Sense of well being and some trails with vision
with doses above 100mg ED.

Other then that I like 50mg EO it makes me feel very good while off
gear. I got same sense of well being and a lot more feeling good from
tren but for now I am trying to stay off gear. .. Just for now.

I am thinking of running the Clomid to feel good and increase natural test
and Cialis when I need it to go more than an hr which I need cause I get
tired now.

I used to go for a few hrs on Tren but now I get tired.

The hrs come from the Lexapro keeping me from getting off.

Please, any replies are welcome.

Thank you,
Mantus
 

bhulkman

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Hey Bro!
Im on my last week of a 3 week only clomid for PCT.
I started out at 300 MG first day and went down as the days went on. Dont think Im suppose to post my exact cycle so I wont.
I ve been getting blurred vision at times, nothing too crazy and it goes right away, common with clomid.
For me I feel good, not tired, i feel real good at the gym, obviously not the same pumps when on cycle. Clomid only for me seems to work well with my body. Everyone is different and some people need more or different things to help elevate their natural test levels.
So over all my experience has been good.
The same for a few friends who run clomid only, seems to do the trick for them.
 
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wasp

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i'm confused on this, i've seen where guys are on clomid for hrt and run an ai, then i've seen guys pct and run no ai with clomid, only with hcg, sooooooooooooo is an ai needed with clomid or not?
 

wasp

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i'm confused on this, i've seen where guys are on clomid for hrt and run an ai, then i've seen guys pct and run no ai with clomid, only with hcg, sooooooooooooo is an ai needed with clomid or not?
anyone?
 

brutale

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what does everyone think of clomid alone for hrt?
I read a few things on this from other boards and it looks bad.

My experience: Sense of well being and some trails with vision
with doses above 100mg ED.

Other then that I like 50mg EO it makes me feel very good while off
gear. I got same sense of well being and a lot more feeling good from
tren but for now I am trying to stay off gear. .. Just for now.

I am thinking of running the Clomid to feel good and increase natural test
and Cialis when I need it to go more than an hr which I need cause I get
tired now.

I used to go for a few hrs on Tren but now I get tired.

The hrs come from the Lexapro keeping me from getting off.

Please, any replies are welcome.

Thank you,
Mantus
Clomid makes you feel good? Compared with taking test?

Many guys report mood disturbances with clomid since it has some estrogenic activity. Then there are the visual disturbances.

Clomid certainly has a role in PCT, and in helping prevent testicular atrophy in HRT. Very few endos would use it as a base for long-term HRT.

The basic long-term HRT is either 100mg of cyp per week -or- 1-2 tubes of testim per day, along with 0.5 mg of arimidex eod, and 300iu of HCG 2 or 3 times a week. Dosing is tailored to the individual. Some people throw in some DHEA too. Short cycles of clomid every 2 months can be used instead of HCG for ball protection.

My personal advice is to do normal HRT under an endo vs. experimenting with a SERM for long-term HRT.
 
Last edited:

wasp

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soooo, this is why i ask, wouldn't an ai cut down the estrogenic activity
 

brutale

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soooo, this is why i ask, wouldn't an ai cut down the estrogenic activity
An AI certainly reduces levels of estradiol, estrone and other natural estrogens. But clomid (clomiphene) acts as an estrogen agonist (increasing receptor binding) in some tissues and as an antagonist (reducing receptor activation) in others. Clomid's pharmacology is really complicated.
Clomiphene citrate elicits estrogen agonistic/anta... [Endocr J. 2010] - PubMed result

An AI doesn't address the agonist activity of a SERM, only the background level of estrogens. So, you may well get moody and suddenly start enjoying chick flix despite moderate levels of E2. :rolleyes:
 

deceiver

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Well AI kills aromatase, not estrogen itself. Also using clomid longer than 2-3 weeks is pointless, proven by many studies.

Using AI in my eyes should no way be considered as HRT option. Having estrogen extremely low is not what we actually want. Idea behind HRT is mantaining all your hormones at their optimal natural levels.
 
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brutale

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Well AI kills aromatase, not estrogen itself. Also using clomid longer than 2-3 weeks is pointless, proven by many studies.

Using AI in my eyes should no way be considered as HRT option. Having estrogen extremely low is not what we actually want. Idea behind HRT is mantaining all your hormones at their optimal natural levels.
Yep. Even when AIs are used in HRT the goal is E2 in the low 20s, not super low.
 

wasp

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Well AI kills aromatase, not estrogen itself. Also using clomid longer than 2-3 weeks is pointless, proven by many studies.

Using AI in my eyes should no way be considered as HRT option. Having estrogen extremely low is not what we actually want. Idea behind HRT is mantaining all your hormones at their optimal natural levels.
wha? a typical pct is 6 weeks clomid and nolva no?
 

deceiver

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wha? a typical pct is 6 weeks clomid and nolva no?
clomifene actually decreases pituitary sensitivity to gnrh so it is counterproductive to run it for extended period of time, like more than 2 weeks.
 

wasp

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clomifene actually decreases pituitary sensitivity to gnrh so it is counterproductive to run it for extended period of time, like more than 2 weeks.
this news to me, almost all pct i've seen run clomid much longer, anyone else wana chime in here?
 

deceiver

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There is a study from 1970's backing my claims up, brought up originally by Llewelyn i think. It's nothing new to any guy with decent steroid knowledge.
 

wasp

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like i said, every , almost every pct i've seen is longer than 2 weeks of clomid after hcg...............still waiting to hear from others..there is also guys on clomid steady for hrt, the threads are around
 

Bionic

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You may find these interesting, Wasp.

J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.

Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.

Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.
Int J Androl. 1981 Jun;4(3):372-8.

Clomiphene citrate administration to normogonadotropic subfertile men: blood hormone changes and activation of acid phosphatase in seminal fluid.

Ronnberg L, Vihko P, Sajanti E, Vihko R.

Clomiphene citrate was administered as a 50 mg oral daily dose to 44 normogonadotrophic (serum FSH 2-10 mIU/ml) subfertile men for 3 months. The treatment resulted in significant increases in FSH and LH concentrations, whereas prolactin remained unchanged. Serum testosterone and oestradiol both increased highly significantly. The increased testosterone levels suggest that the elevated LH levels had not led to "down regulation" of Leydig cell LH/hCG receptors, neither had the greatly increased estradiol led to depletion of these receptors. This is suggested to be a result of the blocking of testicular oestradiol receptors by the estrogen antagonist, clomiphene.
IMO, the reason for the side effects on Clomid are one of two things: Extreme sensitivity to the compound or over-dosing. You always see people mentioning doses of 150 mgs. or higher being thrown around on the boards.
Also, I wouldn't classify this as TRT. You are not replacing test here. You're boosting your body's own production similar to what the GHRP's do to HGH.
 
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wasp

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i've read studies where 25mg did the job and there were no sides,also, it seems, its easier on the estradiol,like stated above, as far as more than 2 weeks being bad , this is news to me, maybe at higher doses?
 
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Bionic

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i've read studies where 25mg did the job and there were no sides,also, it seems, its easier on the estradiol,like stated above, as far as more than 2 weeks being bad , this is news to me, maybe at higher doses?
The 2 week thing is from the 1978 (outdated) study that Bill Llewelyn popularized. The 2nd study I posted is believed to debunk it.
Higher doses (for men) is the wrong way to use this substance and is the reason many people turned their backs and such a great drug. I know a guy whose endo prescribed 50mg of clomid for 3 months for fertility purposes.
 
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brutale

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The 2 week thing is from the 1978 (outdated) study that Bill Llewelyn popularized. The 2nd study I posted is believed to debunk it.
Higher doses (for men) is the wrong way to use this substance and is the reason many people turned their backs and such a great drug. I know a guy whose endo prescribed 50mg of clomid for 3 months for fertility purposes.
I can see an endo prescribing it for fertility for a few months. Are you aware of an endo prescribing it, by itself, for long-term HRT? (I am not.)

My previous endo used it, or nolva, in 2 week cycles every 2 months, to reduce ball atrophy from test replacement. I did not have significant sides from it, just some water retention and listlessness.

My current endo much prefers HCG for this purpose. He says he's seen a fair number of problems when he too used to prescribe clomid as an ancillary in TRT. The issues he saw included emotional shifts, depression, visual issues, and sometimes sexual issues. For a SERM, considers nolva better, but does not recommend men take stuff with mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist properties. He's pretty down on clomid because of his clinical experience.

To be fair, my personal experience w clomid was not that bad. Didn't like feeling watery though.

I get the concept here, of course, and use gh secretagogue peptides like ghrp6. But ghrp6 is a mimetic of a natural hormone ghrelin. SERMs are small molecule estrogen agonists/antagonists. Don't need the agonist part.
 

deceiver

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I can see an endo prescribing it for fertility for a few months. Are you aware of an endo prescribing it, by itself, for long-term HRT? (I am not.)

My previous endo used it, or nolva, in 2 week cycles every 2 months, to reduce ball atrophy from test replacement. I did not have significant sides from it, just some water retention and listlessness.

My current endo much prefers HCG for this purpose. He says he's seen a fair number of problems when he too used to prescribe clomid as an ancillary in TRT. The issues he saw included emotional shifts, depression, visual issues, and sometimes sexual issues. For a SERM, considers nolva better, but does not recommend men take stuff with mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist properties. He's pretty down on clomid because of his clinical experience.

To be fair, my personal experience w clomid was not that bad. Didn't like feeling watery though.

I get the concept here, of course, and use gh secretagogue peptides like ghrp6. But ghrp6 is a mimetic of a natural hormone ghrelin. SERMs are small molecule estrogen agonists/antagonists. Don't need the agonist part.
It comes down to checking out what made you have low testosterone in the first place. In some cases AI/SERM may be useful, but if your testicles are fried and reject to produce testosterone even if LH is high I do not think you have any alternative to TRT.
 

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