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Crashed E2 remedy

cmryan

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Hi guys. I'm looking for some possible explanation and remedy for crashed E2 that I've had for the better part of 2019. I had 4 blood panels through the year and all showed that I had estrogen levels below 10 ng/dl and 3 were below 5 (all sensitive tests). I did not use any AI all year and my test levels ranged between 750 and 1300 for the 4 tests. So I'm completely lost. I know it's not healthy to have E2 that low so I'm trying to rectify that. Now, I did use some AI back in 2018. I probably didn't need it and it wasn't a significant amount but I figured I should mention it nonetheless.

All that said, short of taking actual estradiol tabs/injections, what may be a possible remedy? Would pinning subq more frequently help or make no difference?
 

Rogue

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Its a good question that I have faced previously.
What is your dosage protocol?
Are you certain of the Testosterone you are using?.
Frequent dosages for can lower Test spikes thus E aromatization.
 

cmryan

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Its a good question that I have faced previously.
What is your dosage protocol?
Are you certain of the Testosterone you are using?.
Frequent dosages for can lower Test spikes thus E aromatization.
Currently, it’s 75mg test E 3x/week. Puts me at or around 800pg/dl on my panels (recently confirmed as well).

Yeah, I’m confident in the actual test. Multiple blood panels confirm that I have circulating test. Just very low E2.

I see. I don’t wanna lower it even further so scratch that idea lol. Although, I had a question about spiking test leading to higher E2. By what mechanism does occur? I’ve read of that in the context of people using TNE but also the very long acting esters as well. Is there a “Goldilocks” frequency that minimizes spikes and E2 aromatization?
 

cmryan

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Maybe like 10mg dbol a day?
Or trestolone.
I've definitely considered both. I've read that some bb'ers way back when used 10mg dbol as trt. I suppose 10mg trest falls into the same general vicinity.

I just with there was a way to monitor the methyl estrogen. I know it's alot stronger than regular E2 and that may be what I need, or could at least benefit from. Do either of you guys know a test that provide that info?
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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curious about the same exact thing. I recently considered running 10mg dbol with my TRT. I'd rather use trest though because I can just pin with same syringe instead of having to take a cap of the dbol orally. And I suppose trest is safer for your liver?

I always have low-ish estrogen. I haven't taken AIs in years...but I haven't increased my HRT dosage either. I just add more GH or primo these days lol

Trest sounds nice though
 

Rogue

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Currently, it’s 75mg test E 3x/week. Puts me at or around 800pg/dl on my panels (recently confirmed as well).

Yeah, I’m confident in the actual test. Multiple blood panels confirm that I have circulating test. Just very low E2.

I see. I don’t wanna lower it even further so scratch that idea lol. Although, I had a question about spiking test leading to higher E2. By what mechanism does occur? I’ve read of that in the context of people using TNE but also the very long acting esters as well. Is there a “Goldilocks” frequency that minimizes spikes and E2 aromatization?
Lowering the dosage was NOT a suggestion.I was going to recommend you consolidate your protocol to 1 or 2x times per week. The spike over spread out dosing should in theory cultivate you 5-alpha to automatize. With E having a longer half life than T, in theory you should feel better E response.
This is NOT always the case but in the desire to optimizing Testosterone, I have seen a favorable T:E ratio achieved when administering dosages EOD, and certain ones E3D within the same predetermined weekly dosage vs. daily injections.Sometimes 1x every 8 days for a period and other time with fluctuating (mg) all within a specific dosage to achieve a desired E levels.
Much like dyno tuning your sports vehicle to get a correct fuel:air ratio for maximum hp/tq (performance), There are certain variables you can manipulate to achieve you hormonal objectives. Throwing in more gas is not a solution for your vehicles performance and longevity.
Not to compare you to a motorized vehicle, but just like 2 Corvettes with the same configurations (Year/displacement/model) will have 2 distinctively different Dyno tunes , you as an individual will have your own protocol.
Adding a compound Methan,Trest,Mest,AI...and increasing your dosage will get you there... for a period. But if you are in it for the long haul and ultimate performance is your objective mentally and physically- In my experience nothing will keep you there like a fine tuned Testosterone monotherapy program. Dial it in, let it take over and you can achieve performance you never thought possible on physiological doses, Successful testosterone optimization, is proper E management.
None of this is medical advise.
 

cmryan

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Lowering the dosage was NOT a suggestion.I was going to recommend you consolidate your protocol to 1 or 2x times per week. The spike over spread out dosing should in theory cultivate you 5-alpha to automatize. With E having a longer half life than T, in theory you should feel better E response.
This is NOT always the case but in the desire to optimizing Testosterone, I have seen a favorable T:E ratio achieved when administering dosages EOD, and certain ones E3D within the same predetermined weekly dosage vs. daily injections.Sometimes 1x every 8 days for a period and other time with fluctuating (mg) all within a specific dosage to achieve a desired E levels.
Sorry. Poorly worded reply. I meant lowering E2 is something I want to avoid so I'll scratch the idea of more frequent dosing. Sorry about that confusion.
Much like dyno tuning your sports vehicle to get a correct fuel:air ratio for maximum hp/tq (performance), There are certain variables you can manipulate to achieve you hormonal objectives. Throwing in more gas is not a solution for your vehicles performance and longevity.
Not to compare you to a motorized vehicle, but just like 2 Corvettes with the same configurations (Year/displacement/model) will have 2 distinctively different Dyno tunes , you as an individual will have your own protocol.
No disrespect taken lol.
Adding a compound Methan,Trest,Mest,AI...and increasing your dosage will get you there... for a period. But if you are in it for the long haul and ultimate performance is your objective mentally and physically- In my experience nothing will keep you there like a fine tuned Testosterone monotherapy program. Dial it in, let it take over and you can achieve performance you never thought possible on physiological doses, Successful testosterone optimization, is proper E management.
None of this is medical advise.
Proper dose of test is definitely my preferred goal. If I could be certain that adding 5mg/day of trest would get me to and keep me at a healthy level of methyl estrogen then I'd do it. But I'd need to see some blood tests to be certain because I anticipate being in this for the long haul.

For now, I'll move to 2x/week dosing and see how I react. Thank you man.
 

cmryan

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curious about the same exact thing. I recently considered running 10mg dbol with my TRT. I'd rather use trest though because I can just pin with same syringe instead of having to take a cap of the dbol orally. And I suppose trest is safer for your liver?

I always have low-ish estrogen. I haven't taken AIs in years...but I haven't increased my HRT dosage either. I just add more GH or primo these days lol

Trest sounds nice though
I've read that 10mg dbol was intended to be a potential TRT protocol years ago. But even 10mg/day for long periods is likely rough on our livers. And I believe all methylated aas have ill effects on our CV systems as well. So, I'd want to try something else as long as it could be monitored. Trest has some of the same limitations but no ill effects on the liver that I'm aware of.

Yeah, more primo/GH sounds nice lol.

Right now, I'm just gonna decrease my test frequency and see how I respond in a month. If no improvement, then I'll reassess. Funny thing is, I had FAR higher E2 levels when I was a natty. So, even that's kinda bewildering lol.
 

cmryan

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Hey fellas. Just wanted to post an update. No luck with less frequent dosing. I had a blood panel done before the world shut down and it came back with the following:
Total test: 1485 ng/dL
Free test: > 50.0 pg/mL
Estradiol: 6.6 pg/mL

At the time of the blood draw, I was (and still am) taking 150mg test enanthate 2x/week. One positive is that my HDL hasn't gotten worse (still exactly the same since last blood panel) and LDL has dropped a bit. I'm not sure if it's relevant but I'll add that progesterone was near high end of normal (0.4 ng/mL) and prolactin near bottom end of normal (4.8 ng/mL). Again, I'm not sure if that's relevant or not.

Well, not sure where to go from here. I had briefly considered adding HCG, but I'll abstain from that for the time being. Maybe adding 5mg/day of Trest is a solution, but I'd really like to solve this with only the proper amount/dosing of test. I've read of some guys administering test subq and experiencing higher E2. I'm not sure how I feel about injecting oil subq. I reacted kinda poorly once. Just forms a lump that seems to sit there forever. That said, I guess I'll just continue reading and hopefully figure this out.

Take care fellas.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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hey man, sorry to hear that your estrogen hasn't raised....

After we talked, I bumped my test dosage up and I added 12.5mg dbol/day to my diet (lol) + 20mg raloxifene/day. I feel a lot better but I haven't got bloodwork yet to confirm my estrogen is up. I know it must be though because I'm getting a lot better pumps and before I added the ralox my nipples were a little sensitive (the first two effects from raised estrogen I get).

I know adding dbol is a band-aid but man that shit feels good. I love it just for the mental effects (its like primo, it makes me happier/better mood) - I don't drink alcohol and I take milk thistle every day. I'll get my bloodwork once this covid-19 shit blows over and determine if its actually that bad for me to run dbol for 3-4 months/year.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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@cmryan one thought I had, which nobody touched on....what is your mineral intake? High intake of boron/zinc can lower estrogen dramatically. German athletes used to dose zinc as their sole AI running testosterone. They were known for hard/dry physiques during the time they utilized this approach. Zinc is a strong AI in some (it seems like it depends on a person's genetics).

For me, if I dose zinc too high (even like 2 tabs of 2-per-day life extension multi) I notice my estrogen dropping.

Something to consider....
 

cmryan

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hey man, sorry to hear that your estrogen hasn't raised....

After we talked, I bumped my test dosage up and I added 12.5mg dbol/day to my diet (lol) + 20mg raloxifene/day. I feel a lot better but I haven't got bloodwork yet to confirm my estrogen is up. I know it must be though because I'm getting a lot better pumps and before I added the ralox my nipples were a little sensitive (the first two effects from raised estrogen I get).

I know adding dbol is a band-aid but man that shit feels good. I love it just for the mental effects (its like primo, it makes me happier/better mood) - I don't drink alcohol and I take milk thistle every day. I'll get my bloodwork once this covid-19 shit blows over and determine if its actually that bad for me to run dbol for 3-4 months/year.
I know that dbol was used as an HRT alternative in the 1960's and 1970's I think (5-10mg/day). So, you might be ok using 12.5mg/day for 1/4-1/3 of the year, but obviously blood work is extra necessary as you mentioned.

I've never used dbol but I'm this close to saying to heck with it and trying it or trest @ 5-10mg/day. I just wish there was some way to measure methyl estrogen.

I wonder about the sides from long term low dose serms too. That's another curveball that gets thrown in.
 

cmryan

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@cmryan one thought I had, which nobody touched on....what is your mineral intake? High intake of boron/zinc can lower estrogen dramatically. German athletes used to dose zinc as their sole AI running testosterone. They were known for hard/dry physiques during the time they utilized this approach. Zinc is a strong AI in some (it seems like it depends on a person's genetics).

For me, if I dose zinc too high (even like 2 tabs of 2-per-day life extension multi) I notice my estrogen dropping.

Something to consider....
Hmm, ok. I've never measured my zinc via blood panels, but ZMA is one of my mainstay supps and has been for years. I'll try dropping the dose and see if it has any effect. I started using boron about 9 months ago, but I had the E2 problems before the boron use. Thank you man.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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I know that dbol was used as an HRT alternative in the 1960's and 1970's I think (5-10mg/day). So, you might be ok using 12.5mg/day for 1/4-1/3 of the year, but obviously blood work is extra necessary as you mentioned.

I've never used dbol but I'm this close to saying to heck with it and trying it or trest @ 5-10mg/day. I just wish there was some way to measure methyl estrogen.

I wonder about the sides from long term low dose serms too. That's another curveball that gets thrown in.
yeah man, you're smart to think about the long-term effects. I've been on real low dose TRT for a couple years with only some primo thrown in here and there. 2020 is the first year I'm actually blasting over TRT (200mg test:200mg deca:400mg primo:low dose daily dbol). Its about 900mg total per week including the dbol. I am 37 this year so I have 2-3 more years to solidify gains from my 30s...then I'm going to cruise through my 40s and maintain as best I can the rest of my life. I've never wanted to be the biggest person I could possibly be, I train for strength:weight ratio sport so bigger isn't necessarily better. I'm big enough already but I definitely want to solidify/increase the density of my muscle...that means hard training + more AAS...better to do it in my 30s while I still can! I don't plan to use orals or SERMs in my 40s. So, its probably not healthy but I figure I can straighten shit out in my 40s with low dose cruise and still have a good shot at a long life.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Hmm, ok. I've never measured my zinc via blood panels, but ZMA is one of my mainstay supps and has been for years. I'll try dropping the dose and see if it has any effect. I started using boron about 9 months ago, but I had the E2 problems before the boron use. Thank you man.
its just a shot in the dark....maybe you're one of the guys that hyper-responds to zinc as an AI? If you can get your levels tested and then go off the zinc/boron supps....then get re-tested a couple months later. Might tell you something useful.

You don't want to be low on zinc (or any other mineral) as an athlete though.

PS if I was going to use one or the other, I'd use dbol. Its tried and true. I'd search for biotech tablets. That line of tabs (and oils) are the very best I've ever used. Trest has too much shadiness around it. Why does no major AAS finished line provide it? Its only from sketchy RC companies....that should tell you something about it....
 

A50#

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Hi guys. I'm looking for some possible explanation and remedy for crashed E2 that I've had for the better part of 2019. I had 4 blood panels through the year and all showed that I had estrogen levels below 10 ng/dl and 3 were below 5 (all sensitive tests). I did not use any AI all year and my test levels ranged between 750 and 1300 for the 4 tests. So I'm completely lost. I know it's not healthy to have E2 that low so I'm trying to rectify that. Now, I did use some AI back in 2018. I probably didn't need it and it wasn't a significant amount but I figured I should mention it nonetheless.

All that said, short of taking actual estradiol tabs/injections, what may be a possible remedy? Would pinning subq more frequently help or make no difference?
Are you experiencing side effects from having your E2 so low?
 
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