HCG necessary for PCT in my case ...?

SIR-LOIN · Mar 14, 2010

I'm a newbie to this site, but want to ask a question, kind of a unique case, so I haven't found any examples here yet.
I'm on HRT, 200 mg / 2 weeks. Sometimes I boost it up to 400 wk for up to 8 weeks, then back down to prescribed dosage. Last summer I competed and added some tren for about 6 weeks. In Sept continued at 200 / 2 wks until mid January, went to about 400 / wk, added deca 200 / wk until 3 weeks ago. About 4 months ago I added 500 iu hcg a week with good results, got the boys more active, they're doing okay now, but I ran out of hcg 3 weeks ago and haven't located a source yet.
I had a bad accident in the gym 2.5 weeks ago, ruptured quadricep tendons in both legs, torn completely off the patella, resulting in double surgery, 2 full length casts, can't drive a vehicle or train, other than exercise bands in my chair.
So, I've been wanting to come off everything for about 12 weeks, as I usually do at least once a year. This would be the perfect time since
I can't do anything but waste away for a couple of months anyway.

So, if I do that, do you guys think HCG is necessary at this point given the nads are in decent shape now? I will either use clomid or tamox in PCT, followed by natty test boosters until I start up again. Always had good results with that, just never was "on" so long that HCG was necessary.
Thx

BigReps · Mar 14, 2010

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killbill · Mar 15, 2010

HCG will suppress natural test so make sure you discontinue that when you discontinue the test. Run the hcg another maybe 10 days after your last shot until the ester clears and then ur g2g.

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twinhart · Apr 15, 2010

killbill said:
HCG will suppress natural test so make sure you discontinue that when you discontinue the test. Run the hcg another maybe 10 days after your last shot until the ester clears and then ur g2g.

I agree I think your gtg .

J_Diggs · Sep 30, 2010

I always run my HCG at 250iu, twice a week while running test and never for PCT. Generally start the 3rd week into the cycle and then stop the same week as the last injection of test. I never have any issues with the boys and the timing of when I stop is spot on. A week later i start the Nolvadex/Clomid protocol for PCT and all is good. You should be perfectly fine without HCG during PCT.

dieselbuilder · Sep 30, 2010

SIR-LOIN said:
I'm a newbie to this site, but want to ask a question, kind of a unique case, so I haven't found any examples here yet.
I'm on HRT, 200 mg / 2 weeks. Sometimes I boost it up to 400 wk for up to 8 weeks, then back down to prescribed dosage. Last summer I competed and added some tren for about 6 weeks. In Sept continued at 200 / 2 wks until mid January, went to about 400 / wk, added deca 200 / wk until 3 weeks ago. About 4 months ago I added 500 iu hcg a week with good results, got the boys more active, they're doing okay now, but I ran out of hcg 3 weeks ago and haven't located a source yet.
I had a bad accident in the gym 2.5 weeks ago, ruptured quadricep tendons in both legs, torn completely off the patella, resulting in double surgery, 2 full length casts, can't drive a vehicle or train, other than exercise bands in my chair.
So, I've been wanting to come off everything for about 12 weeks, as I usually do at least once a year. This would be the perfect time since
I can't do anything but waste away for a couple of months anyway.

So, if I do that, do you guys think HCG is necessary at this point given the nads are in decent shape now? I will either use clomid or tamox in PCT, followed by natty test boosters until I start up again. Always had good results with that, just never was "on" so long that HCG was necessary.
Thx

Id search around and find swale's protocol. I cant find it, but its a good read...might help you out

J_Diggs · Oct 1, 2010

dieselbuilder said:
Id search around and find swale's protocol. I cant find it, but its a good read...might help you out

Dr. Swale's protocol is very similar to what I do.

I believe this is what you were searching for:

From Doctor Swale

Quote:
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

King-kong · Oct 2, 2010

Are you planning on remaining on HRT or trying to cease usage. To come off totally for 12 weeks a year is really cycling - not HRT. If you truly need HRT due to low levels as I do - you are gonna crash hard. IMO if you are remaining on HRT for life due to low levels why bother with the proper pct protocol. The supplemental HRT injections even at the 200/2wk as stated will inhibit natural production.

If you are on HRT permanently, Id just go back to the dosage level for 8 weeks or so and have your blood checked. HCG should help with shrinking issues, hopefully someone can verify what dosage to take while on HRT, not for PCT.

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BIG EVIL42 · Oct 18, 2010

good find

J_Diggs said:
Dr. Swale's protocol is very similar to what I do.

I believe this is what you were searching for:

From Doctor Swale

Quote:
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.