Question about a testosterone ester (undecanoate)

SacToSD · Jul 4, 2009

So I've been on HRT/TRT for the last 6 months or so, and now I get the chance to try testosterone undecanoate (injection)... I haven't heard much about it, and have been doing research online about it, but I can't seem to find many people's reports about results, dosing frequency, or comparisons to other test esters. Does anyone have any input about this ester? Is it as good as enanthate or cypionate? Thanks bros

dece870717 · Jul 4, 2009

SacToSD said:
So I've been on HRT/TRT for the last 6 months or so, and now I get the chance to try testosterone undecanoate (injection)... I haven't heard much about it, and have been doing research online about it, but I can't seem to find many people's reports about results, dosing frequency, or comparisons to other test esters. Does anyone have any input about this ester? Is it as good as enanthate or cypionate? Thanks bros

Taken from http://www.nebido.com

"The medically active component in Nebido® is testosterone undecanoate, which is an ester of natural testosterone. The testosterone undecanoate behaves in the same way as natural testosterone in the body. Following the injection, testosterone undecanoate is gradually released into circulation in the body. it is then metabolised in the liver and in other organs and tissues.

One dose of Nebido® contains 1000 mg of testosterone undecanoate in a 4 ml oily solution. This dosage leads to very stable blood concentrations of testosterone over a long period.

After the first dose of Nebido®, normal levels of serum testosterone are reached within a week. Peaks in testosterone that exceed the normal range are avoided. Except for the second dose which is received six weeks after the first, new doses of Nebido® are received 12 weeks apart. Between the first and second doses, the serum testosterone concentration in the blood remains in the normal range."

It'll probably take over all other injection methods of TRT once approved in the US. Currently being used in Europe. 4-5 injections a year, can't beat that.

617ricky · Jul 4, 2009

dece870717 said:
it is shot 4ml's once every 10-12 weeks! So once you get going on it you only need to inject it about 4-5 times a year.

No way would that create even hormone levels tho IMO, dosing that infrequently.. The undecanoate ester is longer acting than most (it's the ester used in Deca), but it's not long enough acting to dose every 3 months! The longest that undecanoate would be active for is like 3 wks, some would even say 2.. You figure enanthate is active for 7-10 days, and it has 7 carbon atoms in the ester chain.. Undecanoate has 11 carbons in the ester chain, so it's a little more than 1.5x as long..

The way some of these Dr's are administering TRT is just wrong, giving monthly injections, cuz the hormone levels would not close to even..

jm425 · Jul 4, 2009

617ricky said:
No way would that create even hormone levels tho IMO, dosing that infrequently.. The undecanoate ester is longer acting than most (it's the ester used in Deca), but it's not long enough acting to dose every 3 months! The longest that undecanoate would be active for is like 3 wks, some would even say 2.. You figure enanthate is active for 7-10 days, and it has 7 carbon atoms in the ester chain.. Undecanoate has 11 carbons in the ester chain, so it's a little more than 1.5x as long..

The way some of these Dr's are administering TRT is just wrong, giving monthly injections, cuz the hormone levels would not close to even..

I agree. It's just plain silly and stupid to be telling your patients on hrt to pin themselves every 10-12 weeks.

dece870717 · Jul 4, 2009

617ricky said:
No way would that create even hormone levels tho IMO, dosing that infrequently.. The undecanoate ester is longer acting than most (it's the ester used in Deca), but it's not long enough acting to dose every 3 months! The longest that undecanoate would be active for is like 3 wks, some would even say 2.. You figure enanthate is active for 7-10 days, and it has 7 carbon atoms in the ester chain.. Undecanoate has 11 carbons in the ester chain, so it's a little more than 1.5x as long..

The way some of these Dr's are administering TRT is just wrong, giving monthly injections, cuz the hormone levels would not even close to even..

Take it up with the pharmaceutical company using it for TRT and having success.

Quoting Vet from another popular steroid board who uses Nebido...

"With nebido once the loading phase as been implemented you inject once every 10-12 wks instead of weekly or every 14 days and you will have far better stable blood values than test e or sus will ever give, ive posted studies were nebido is ran along side test e and this shows the finding in favour of nebido, there are many studies comparing between other hrt therapies and nebido wins every time.

For me ive tried nearly every hrt therapy going and nothing touches nebdio, but guess you have to try them and see for yourself, suppose your in the hands of your endro..but if sus stops your problems and your fine with the amount of injections then stick with it but IMHO the best therapy for hrt is the new nebido without doubt... "

"My test levels are in the high side of normal, this range is best for me because anything under this I feel like crap and have many symptoms, ive tried nearly every method going, Test E was good for me i was on 250mgs every 10 days but my endro changed it because my blood levels were having highs and lows and he didnt want to go with closer injections.

I never suffered any dips within the first month but I was put on a loading phase for 4 weeks to reach peak and then i have one every 12 weeks, mine are more stable than ever and I feel great, infact 21 again. Personally I would rather go with every 10 wks but that could be just my mind playing games on me because my endro says no need to..

Nebido was having great write ups and the studies were amazing, infact ive got one study which was done over a 8year period, so you cant get any more back up than that, I also knew a few guys who were trying it out and they all liked it, so I gave it a go and I have never looked back, for me the stuff is amazing and my endro tells me in the medical profession its ranked one of the best and the results are breaking all records for HRT."

2.5yr study - http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/11/5429

8yrs study - **broken link removed**

9yrs study - **broken link removed**

So no its not bull shit my friend, it works and works extremely well. Not everything works the same as it does on paper when compared to real life.

SacToSD · Jul 4, 2009

okay okay, so if you were using undecanoate instead of enanthate, would it hurt to inject 2x per week? Reason being is that I can't inject 5 mls into a single muscle, and don't want to overload any one muscle. I just wouldn't want to take any chances. The only thing that would worry me is having to wait for it to kick in. And to dece870717, if I were considering using bbing doses in the range of 500-750 mgs per week, then how would one do that injecting so infrequently? That's a lot of mls all at once in whichever muscle is unlucky enough to get the big surprise

dece870717 · Jul 4, 2009

Also Deca has the Decanoate ester not undecanoate.

dece870717 · Jul 4, 2009

SacToSD said:
okay okay, so if you were using undecanoate instead of enanthate, would it hurt to inject 2x per week? I just wouldn't want to take any chances. The only thing that would worry me is having to wait for it to kick in. And to dece870717, if I were considering using bbing doses in the range of 500-750 mgs per week, then how would one do that injecting so infrequently? That's a lot of mls all at once in whichever muscle is unlucky enough to get the big surprise

Test undecanoate I would say only has a use in TRT. So if you were going to do cycles during TRT use I'd use another Test along with the Test Undecanoate like Prop or Enan and then when finished with the cycle continue using Undecanoate. And 4ml's in the glute I don't think is all that bad.

SacToSD · Jul 4, 2009

dece870717 said:
Test undecanoate I would say only has a use in TRT. So if you were going to do cycles during TRT use I'd use another Test along with the Test Undecanoate like Prop or Enan and then when finished with the cycle continue using Undecanoate. And 4ml's in the glute I don't think is all that bad.

4 mls no, 5 mls is what I'd be doing. I wouldn't want to push my luck. Damned hrt only has 200mg/ml instead of my preferred 300mg/ml.

617ricky · Jul 4, 2009

dece870717 said:
Also Deca has the Decanoate ester not undecanoate.

You're right, my mistake.. But they're both very similar, with the undecanoate having 1 additional carbon on the ester chain, and both still having the same duration, which is 2-3 wks.. The difference between the 2 is similar to the difference between enanthate and cypionate, which is 1 carbon, and near identical duration..

And just cuz pharmaceutical companies are using that approach to TRT, does not mean it's the best or most effective way to do it.. Just like how some Dr's out there will give 1 injection of enanthate a month.. In that case right there, or in the case of administering undecanoate every 12 wks - the hormone levels are without a doubt not close to even thru the entire duration.. It's like they're front-loading you with a high dose, and waiting for it to slowly plummet to baseline, to the point where you have nothing left, and then give you another shot..

iprimate · Jul 4, 2009

617ricky said:
No way would that create even hormone levels tho IMO, dosing that infrequently.. The undecanoate ester is longer acting than most (it's the ester used in Deca), but it's not long enough acting to dose every 3 months! The longest that undecanoate would be active for is like 3 wks, some would even say 2.. You figure enanthate is active for 7-10 days, and it has 7 carbon atoms in the ester chain.. Undecanoate has 11 carbons in the ester chain, so it's a little more than 1.5x as long..

The way some of these Dr's are administering TRT is just wrong, giving monthly injections, cuz the hormone levels would not close to even..

In the process of trying to confirm Patrick Arnold's statement that aqueous, unesterified tesosterone disolves in the blood over a period of 48 hours I found this paper [1].

The Testosterone Undeconaoate (TU) group of monkeys were administered injections on weeks 0, 10, and 20. As you can see from the graph below their serum testosterone (T) levels drop to baseline by the 30th week. So although their serum T wasn't constant between week 20 and week 30 it fell steadily from about 200 nmol/L in the 20th week to around 50 nmol/L in the 30th week.

dece870717 · Jul 4, 2009

617ricky said:
You're right, my mistake.. But they're both very similar, with the undecanoate having 1 additional carbon on the ester chain, and both still having the same duration, which is 2-3 wks.. The difference between the 2 is similar to the difference between enanthate and cypionate, which is 1 carbon, and near identical duration..

And just cuz pharmaceutical companies are using that approach to TRT, does not mean it's the best or most effective way to do it.. Just like how some Dr's out there will give 1 injection of enanthate a month.. In that case right there, or in the case of administering undecanoate every 12 wks - the hormone levels are without a doubt not close to even thru the entire duration.. It's like they're front-loading you with a high dose, and waiting for it to slowly plummet to baseline, to the point where you have nothing left, and then give you another shot..

In the 2.5 yr study link the Test levels were very stable. "The present results show that injecting 1000 mg TU im every 12 wk is sufficient to maintain normal T levels in hypogonadal men without causing major oscillations in serum T levels." "The first multiple-dose pharmacokinetic studies using 1000 mg per injection of this new TU formulation proposed an injection interval of 6 wk. Here we demonstrate that injecting 1000 mg TU every 12 wk is sufficient to maintain normal T and estrogen levels in hypogonadal men, without causing local or systemic adverse side effects using this new formulation" Did you read the study and look at the results? Its very apparent from the studys that 12 weeks later your Test levels are still good... If you go to AR and talk to the Vet marcus he could answer anymore questions with it because according to his own use of it he loves and it does not have any problems at all.

617ricky · Jul 4, 2009

dece870717 said:
Did you read the study and look at the results?

I haven't, I'm just basing my opinion on the fact that the undecanote ester is only active for 2-3 wks.. So I'm just not sure how they say Test levels are evenly sustained thru 12 wks.. Maybe they're able to delay the absorption further than the 2-3 wks somehow? It just doesn't seem to fully make sense to me.. I'd like to hear what some others think on the subject, cuz it's interesting..

iprimate · Jul 4, 2009

SacToSD said:
okay okay, so if you were using undecanoate instead of enanthate, would it hurt to inject 2x per week? Reason being is that I can't inject 5 mls into a single muscle, and don't want to overload any one muscle. I just wouldn't want to take any chances. The only thing that would worry me is having to wait for it to kick in. And to dece870717, if I were considering using bbing doses in the range of 500-750 mgs per week, then how would one do that injecting so infrequently? That's a lot of mls all at once in whichever muscle is unlucky enough to get the big surprise

I don't think TU is especially well-suited to bodybuilding that's why it is hardly referenced. I have reproduced the pharmacokinetic data for TU from the study I referenced in my other post. As you can see from the table the Cmax (maximal concentration) value for TU was about half of that for Testosterone Enanthate (TE) and it took about 10 times as long (Tmax) to reach that Cmax value compared to TE.

iprimate · Jul 4, 2009

617ricky said:
I haven't, I'm just basing my opinion on the fact that the undecanote ester is only active for 2-3 wks.. So I'm just not sure how they say Test levels are evenly sustained thru 12 wks.. Maybe they're able to delay the absorption further than the 2-3 wks somehow? It just doesn't seem to fully make sense to me.. I'd like to hear what some others think on the subject, cuz it's interesting..

I think the answer to your concern is contained in the last sentence of the footer of Table 1:

"It has to be noted that serum half-life and the other parameters are most likely not determined by metabolization but by the release rate from the intramuscular depot."

They are suggesting that TU creates a particularly long-lasting IM depot.

dece870717 · Jul 4, 2009

617ricky said:
I haven't, I'm just basing my opinion on the fact that the undecanote ester is only active for 2-3 wks.. So I'm just not sure how they say Test levels are evenly sustained thru 12 wks.. Maybe they're able to delay the absorption further than the 2-3 wks somehow? It just doesn't seem to fully make sense to me.. I'd like to hear what some others think on the subject, cuz it's interesting..

It indeed is interesting, this is one of the graphs taken from the 2.5yr study

**broken link removed**

But like I said before sometimes whats on paper(chemically) doesn't always correlate to real life like how Halo is 19x as anabolic as Test but yet Halo is pathetic for putting on muscle.

Newman · Jul 4, 2009

dece870717 said:
Also Deca has the Decanoate ester not undecanoate.

I was wondering if anyone else noticed that...

Anyway, there's something about test undecanoate that I don't really understand. Maybe someone can explain it 4 me.

IIRC, test andecanoate is not only the active ingredient in TRT med Nebido, but is also the ingredient in Andriol, right? I think that there are a few other ingredients in an Andriol caplet, but I'm not sure exactly what they are, or what purpose they serve.

What I'm wondering is whether orally administered test undec (Andriol) is as effective in TRT as IM test undec (Nebido)?

I'm thinking that the answer to that question may partly have to do with how much of the ester survives stomach acids & actually gets absorbed, but I'm not sure if there are other factors to consider as well. I know orals need to survive the liver, but Andriol isn't 17aa because bypasses the liver by a different absorbtion route.

IIRC, aside from test undec, there is some sort of lipid ingredient in the caplets to help the ester get absorbed.

I'm not scared of needles, but I'd rather use test E than a shorter lived test product. I have nothing to prove & would rather avoid creating scar tissue unnecessarilly. Following that motive of avoiding scar tissue buildup, I can't help wondering if Andriol might be an effective TRT?

After all, it's the same ester, just a different route of administration. It may be a waste of the ester as IM is likely far more efficient than oral administration, but if the price were right, I think Andriol might be a good option. I could be wrong...

I'll have to do some research on it, but if anyone has any insight into the issue, please share.

Thanks!

dece870717 · Jul 4, 2009

Newman said:
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that...

Anyway, there's something about test undecanoate that I don't really understand. Maybe someone can explain it 4 me.

IIRC, test andecanoate is not only the active ingredient in TRT med Nebido, but is also the ingredient in Andriol, right? I think that there are a few other ingredients in an Andriol caplet, but I'm not sure exactly what they are, or what purpose they serve.

What I'm wondering is whether orally administered test undec (Andriol) is as effective in TRT as IM test undec (Nebido)?

I'm thinking that the answer to that question may partly have to do with how much of the ester survives stomach acids & actually gets absorbed, but I'm not sure if there are other factors to consider as well. I know orals need to survive the liver, but Andriol isn't 17aa because bypasses the liver by a different absorbtion route.

IIRC, aside from test undec, there is some sort of lipid ingredient in the caplets to help the ester get absorbed.

I'm not scared of needles, but I'd rather use test E than a shorter lived test product. I have nothing to prove & would rather avoid creating scar tissue unnecessarilly. Following that motive of avoiding scar tissue buildup, I can't help wondering if Andriol might be an effective TRT?

After all, it's the same ester, just a different route of administration.

I'll have to do some research on it, but if anyone has any insight into the issue, please share.

Thanks!

Injectable Test undecanoate is definitely different from the oral version known as Andriol. Andriol caps have to be taken everyday and are not too popularly used. I think it does have to do with the breakdown in the liver and such that does not make it last anywhere near as long the injectable version. One 4ml shot every 12 weeks or take capsules everyday? I'd take IM and more effective way over Andriol anyday.

jm425 · Jul 4, 2009

dece870717 said:
Injectable Test undecanoate is definitely different from the oral version known as Andriol. Andriol caps have to be taken everyday and are not too popularly used. I think it does have to do with the breakdown in the liver and such that does not make it last anywhere near as long the injectable version. One 4ml shot every 12 weeks or take capsules everyday? I'd take IM and more effective way over Andriol anyday.

Andriol should be taken every 2 hours to really even see it's benefits. The frequency of dosing and the amount of gel caps you would have to take is astronomical, therefore bbers do not like using andriol. Not to mention that it's one of the pricier orals out there.