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sympathomimetic triggers and loading

IronLion2

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This is something i've heard a few diet coaches talk about. The release of catecholamines stimulate the body to break down fat through the effects of Adrenaline and Norepinephrine, normally these conditions are met during times of stress or starvation ie fight or flight but in modern times catecholamines are most commonly triggered by physical fitness and drugs, usually stimulants. I bring up the science lecture because when catecholamines are activated they will shift the body metabolism, when fight or flight is triggered glucose metabolism will be limited and during times of fuck or feed you'll see less fat metabolism. Knowing this helps us understand how and why we load more optimally with certain foods at certain times, this is simply to show that times when you are stimulated, like from stimulants/stress/androgens you'll find more value in a smaller style skip style load, while in a more tranquil and/or prolonged setting you'll find less spill over from glycogen loads. You'll often hear competitors or weight class athletes making sure they have their androgens and stimulants out of their system before they begin their load/rebound. This doesnt even bring in to consideration the supercompensation cycle and if proper endocrine or metabolic function are optimized, ie the way you train and the composition of your body will also regulate the ability to load. The moral of the story is play with how you load up and deplete down, everyone should be practicing this year round no matter what your sport is. What are some things you have found has increased your ability to load or your ability to understand how you most optimally load.

For me it's night and day, as long as i'm not pushing the carbs heavy throughout the week and i'm not depleting them that aggressively I load best with heavy carbs during my rest days. I'll usually finish my last training session later in the evening, add a late night small skip hill load, then the next morning load for most the day. Do that once or twice a week and I see almost no fat gain while keeping energy levels maximized.
 

ripriot

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I have a lot to learn but did not know this. Thank you!
 

thethinker48

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Training volume plays a big role here for me personally

If my training has a big metabolic blood flow component; and prolonged sessions; I can add more peri workout carbs, and increase my total for the day.

If it's low volume DC/FT style training, then I can remain "full"ish on 200-250 grams of carbs on training days with higher fats; prob because the glycogen demand is much lower, it's just pure CNS fatigue that accumulates lol

I've never used insulin; so I can't speak on the impact that would have on guys's ability to load 700-1000 grams on their high days (which I'm sure is huge).
 

IronLion2

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Training volume plays a big role here for me personally

If my training has a big metabolic blood flow component; and prolonged sessions; I can add more peri workout carbs, and increase my total for the day.

If it's low volume DC/FT style training, then I can remain "full"ish on 200-250 grams of carbs on training days with higher fats; prob because the glycogen demand is much lower, it's just pure CNS fatigue that accumulates lol

I've never used insulin; so I can't speak on the impact that would have on guys's ability to load 700-1000 grams on their high days (which I'm sure is huge).

I can tell you no amount of insulin does it when you're on tren and all jacked up post workout. Peri window is only so big, no matter what you bring in, potentially the adrenal hormones as I mentioned. The biggest and the smallest guys don't load the same but the range in Peri nutrition totals don't vary much, 40-100g for a total window of like 200g. On off days I can load way more than that without insulin. On the other hand when I'm super depleted but also jacked up I can down a cheese burger and it give me a sick pump, sodium's a large part but fat and glucose metabolism are like a sliding scale is what I'm getting at.
 

thethinker48

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I can tell you no amount of insulin does it when you're on tren and all jacked up post workout. Peri window is only so big, no matter what you bring in, potentially the adrenal hormones as I mentioned. The biggest and the smallest guys don't load the same but the range in Peri nutrition totals don't vary much, 40-100g for a total window of like 200g. On off days I can load way more than that without insulin.

So is it the tren jacking up your sympathetic nervous system that prevents glycogen uptake in the muscle? Or is it the nutrient partitioning/metabolic effects of tren (bro science: burning up carbs)?

Matt Porter used to talk about trenbolone giving him a fuller look; and there's some guys who experience that as well. So I wonder if there's an individual component here (how much your adrenals/symp NS is affected by hard androgens). So for some guys it would make less of a difference, and for others it'll require a completely different strategy.

Just another door in the maze of inter-individuality of bodybuilding
 

IronLion2

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So is it the tren jacking up your sympathetic nervous system that prevents glycogen uptake in the muscle? Or is it the nutrient partitioning/metabolic effects of tren (bro science: burning up carbs)?

Matt Porter used to talk about trenbolone giving him a fuller look; and there's some guys who experience that as well. So I wonder if there's an individual component here (how much your adrenals/symp NS is affected by hard androgens). So for some guys it would make less of a difference, and for others it'll require a completely different strategy.

Just another door in the maze of inter-individuality of bodybuilding

How many posts do we have of guys claiming tren made them stringy?

It's that androgens ramp up nervous system response. Pair it with pre workout stimulants, loud music, and heavy iron and you get a hell of a metabolic shift. It's not about tren or the lifter but the internal environment they're in at the moment.
 

thethinker48

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It's that androgens ramp up nervous system response. Pair it with pre workout stimulants, loud music, and heavy iron and you get a hell of a metabolic shift. It's not about tren or the lifter but the internal environment they're in at the moment.

So let's say you don't use pre-workout, and are able to switch "on" for your sets while maintaining calmness in between sets, and tranquility post workout. That would offset that effect and you can then load up carbohydrates better?

I know the feeling you're referring to; caffeine+ androgens+ heavy sets coupled with pacing like a dog in between = A very amped up state of mind post workout, and trouble sleeping at night. Here's my problem with this approach (irregardless of whether or not it's used in prep); it's a flare that can only be burned for a short period of time. It messes up your nervous system pretty fast, and impedes recovery long term.

While I don't think a vast majority of guys in normal gyms even train hard enough for this to be a problem; the guys who are serious lifters (most on here) can really dig themselves into a hole using this strategy. Ron Partlow and Dusty Hanshaw recently spoke about this on their podcast as well. Ron used to throw up on every leg day, and it started turning into pre-workout puking sessions from being dialed on so much. He would tax himself so much pre workout and between sets that he'd be wasted when it came time to actually do the set.

It's better to have this fire be regulated than run amok. And I think guys can do that even with tren use.

But I guess that's not the point of your post; it's a proper explanation for the factors behind why guys have trouble filling out on tren.
 

IronLion2

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So let's say you don't use pre-workout, and are able to switch "on" for your sets while maintaining calmness in between sets, and tranquility post workout. That would offset that effect and you can then load up carbohydrates better?

Yes and no. Ben Pak was the first one i've ever heard of talking about this practice, some do it instinctively. I do believe keeping your heart under control with less sharp spikes up and down would lead to much better glucose uptake during the workout, this would be enforced by guys who do cardio having more functional metabolism, but post workout is a different story, some guys can shut it off post workout and start the recovery process right there, for better and for worse. That was the actual point of this thread, im sure some guys can immediately turn off then carb up pretty well, their training/gear/diet will play a role.
 

IronLion2

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Caffeine is funny bc when used at rest its going to aid in glucose uptake and in times of stress its going to help with fat mobilization. Acts either way but it can be a dual edge sword.
 

thethinker48

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Yes and no. Ben Pak was the first one i've ever heard of talking about this practice, some do it instinctively. I do believe keeping your heart under control with less sharp spikes up and down would lead to much better glucose uptake during the workout, this would be enforced by guys who do cardio having more functional metabolism, but post workout is a different story, some guys can shut it off post workout and start the recovery process right there, for better and for worse. That was the actual point of this thread, im sure some guys can immediately turn off then carb up pretty well, their training/gear/diet will play a role.

I think it's a learned habit + Personality factor

Any net gain from the adrenaline dump would be negated by the cortisol, and glycogen storage issue like you mentioned post workout.

Chuck Vogelpohl is a guy that comes to mind who mastered this according to Dave Tate and John Meadows from their experiences at West Side BB
 

thethinker48

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This is a phenomenal clip on the levels of intensity that exist in this world. Dave Tate is no slouch, but when a guy like that talks about Chuck in such high regard, it tells you something.
 

TheOtherOne55

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Good discussion on here and I actually asked Dr. Scott about this on his board about 6 months or so.
I PL'd in the past and I've always had the innate ability to flip the switch....fight or flight...deep breathe and then move weight. And because of this I always tested well in football. But I also understandd the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system (like B Pak has talked about) and know that post gym time.....i need to flip that switch fully off.

I basically was asking Dr Scott if getting to peak anxiety and stress levels, although beneficial in a heavy set circumstance, is good at all. And his answer was kind of, "not really." I actually know of more lifters that train this way too—trying to take any high stimulus out of training....meaning that on competition day, shit MOVES and they see the big jumps. Chad Wesley Smith trained like this. His lifts would be 60lbs PR's at meets compared to his in gym personal bests.
It's just an interesting topic to me.

I train in a JP PPL type setup and on big big sets i do need a little "flip the switch," for the most part i try to handle it with a controlled focus. This allows me to "feel it," and honestly saves me some injuries too. I'm also a big believer in stuff like KSM-66 and other adaptogens post training to really get you into the parasympathetic mode as quick as possible.
I think the MORE interesting discussion is how this effects glycogen loading, which you guys are talking about....I PERSONALLY have never really noticed a difference in this so i'd love to hear more.
 

IronLion2

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Good discussion on here and I actually asked Dr. Scott about this on his board about 6 months or so.
I PL'd in the past and I've always had the innate ability to flip the switch....fight or flight...deep breathe and then move weight. And because of this I always tested well in football. But I also understandd the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system (like B Pak has talked about) and know that post gym time.....i need to flip that switch fully off.

I basically was asking Dr Scott if getting to peak anxiety and stress levels, although beneficial in a heavy set circumstance, is good at all. And his answer was kind of, "not really." I actually know of more lifters that train this way too—trying to take any high stimulus out of training....meaning that on competition day, shit MOVES and they see the big jumps. Chad Wesley Smith trained like this. His lifts would be 60lbs PR's at meets compared to his in gym personal bests.
It's just an interesting topic to me.

I train in a JP PPL type setup and on big big sets i do need a little "flip the switch," for the most part i try to handle it with a controlled focus. This allows me to "feel it," and honestly saves me some injuries too. I'm also a big believer in stuff like KSM-66 and other adaptogens post training to really get you into the parasympathetic mode as quick as possible.
I think the MORE interesting discussion is how this effects glycogen loading, which you guys are talking about....I PERSONALLY have never really noticed a difference in this so i'd love to hear more.

I just think it's funny most of the guys will reject the idea that alot of AAS and supplements will negatively impact metabolic function :unsure:
 

Elvia1023

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Good discussion on here and I actually asked Dr. Scott about this on his board about 6 months or so.
I PL'd in the past and I've always had the innate ability to flip the switch....fight or flight...deep breathe and then move weight. And because of this I always tested well in football. But I also understandd the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system (like B Pak has talked about) and know that post gym time.....i need to flip that switch fully off.

I basically was asking Dr Scott if getting to peak anxiety and stress levels, although beneficial in a heavy set circumstance, is good at all. And his answer was kind of, "not really." I actually know of more lifters that train this way too—trying to take any high stimulus out of training....meaning that on competition day, shit MOVES and they see the big jumps. Chad Wesley Smith trained like this. His lifts would be 60lbs PR's at meets compared to his in gym personal bests.
It's just an interesting topic to me.

I train in a JP PPL type setup and on big big sets i do need a little "flip the switch," for the most part i try to handle it with a controlled focus. This allows me to "feel it," and honestly saves me some injuries too. I'm also a big believer in stuff like KSM-66 and other adaptogens post training to really get you into the parasympathetic mode as quick as possible.
I think the MORE interesting discussion is how this effects glycogen loading, which you guys are talking about....I PERSONALLY have never really noticed a difference in this so i'd love to hear more.

I am the same. I can be really relaxed during warm ups and in between sets but for my working sets I really do change completely. Now there are times I may be much more intense throughout my entire training session and if I am there is usually a very strong preworkout involved :eek::D Everyone is different and some will be pacing around the gym the whole time whilst others can flip the switch and go from 10mph to 100mph in a few seconds. I would say 99% of gym goers are nowhere near max intensity though. For the ones that are able to train at maximum intensity it's only natural to be the complete opposite post workout. When you take your mind/body to that limit it has a sedative effect in many ways. It's part of the reason low volume for working sets is the only effective way when training that hard because it takes so much out of your body. Even just minutes after training I am always completely relaxed. I have just got back from the gym and you wouldn't think that person strolling through the park had just pretty much been mental in the gym 30 mins before. Now regarding the other stuff I think there is merit and we obviously want to optimize all areas but for me it starts to go to the overcomplicating things box and in the grand scheme isn't a deal breaker in attaining your goals especially for 99% of people.
 

IronLion2

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Now regarding the other stuff I think there is merit and we obviously want to optimize all areas but for me it starts to go to the overcomplicating things box and in the grand scheme isn't a deal breaker in attaining your goals especially for 99% of people.

Or... are we chronically devaluing complexity by oversimplifying things that are far from simple. Mediocre attention to detail leads to mediocre results.
 

Elvia1023

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Or... are we chronically devaluing complexity by oversimplifying things that are far from simple. Mediocre attention to detail leads to mediocre results.

I am not really devaluing the complexity and of course we want to be in parasympathetic mode as soon as possible post workout so we can recover, load and digest optimally. The way we handle stress levels is also vitally important to the way we look and feel. So I am not really devaluing the importance of things I just think for the majority of people if they cover the basics they will be gtg. Meaning watch what they are taking, don't abuse stimulants, train hard, relax/rest after training and try to remain stress free. It's still important and a fascinating subject but I find many get lost in these sort of things when they aren't even doing the basics consistently. Meaning if they aren't getting the results they desire it's likely not due to sympathomimetic triggers (drugs) effecting loading nutrients and more their overall training, diet and consistency. It's still a fascinating subject and a good thread topic and an area I need to research more.
 

IronLion2

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I am not really devaluing the complexity and of course we want to be in parasympathetic mode as soon as possible post workout so we can recover, load and digest optimally. The way we handle stress levels is also vitally important to the way we look and feel. So I am not really devaluing the importance of things I just think for the majority of people if they cover the basics they will be gtg. Meaning watch what they are taking, don't abuse stimulants, train hard, relax/rest after training and try to remain stress free. It's still important and a fascinating subject but I find many get lost in these sort of things when they aren't even doing the basics consistently. Meaning if they aren't getting the results they desire it's likely not due to sympathomimetic triggers (drugs) effecting loading nutrients and more their overall training, diet and consistency. It's still a fascinating subject and a good thread topic and an area I need to research more.

I'm not sure there's a bigger schill term than the basics of bodybuilding, like those aren't a garbage lie created 50 years ago by some no nothing.


Ohearn literally just wrote about this, he's correct, from a physiological standpoint trying to load during the workout window and starve on your off days is crap.
 

Elvia1023

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I'm not sure there's a bigger schill term than the basics of bodybuilding, like those aren't a garbage lie created 50 years ago by some no nothing.


Ohearn literally just wrote about this, he's correct, from a physiological standpoint trying to load during the workout window and starve on your off days is crap.

I may be misunderstanding you but I don't know why anyone would want to starve themselves on their off days. You obviously need nutrients/macros for recovery/growth. I do believe we can load extra nutrients around the workout window but to go from one extreme to another just doesn't make any sense. Again I am not disagreeing with you at all and we all want to be getting the best results possible and for most (non genetic elites) that requires great detail in their approach.

Maybe we have different definitions of the bodybuilding basics. My last post was mainly in response to you writing "Mediocre attention to detail leads to mediocre results." Whilst that is very true and we obviously want to follow an effective plan. Plus hey I am as detailed as they come and there are detailed reasons why I do most of the things I do. But I also believe many people get too lost in the details. When in reality bodybuilding can be very simple and if most followed the "basics of bodybuilding" they would get a lot further than trying to make everything as complicated as possible. When I write the basics of bodybuilding it's definitely not a shill term. I shouldn't even need to write all the things as we all know them but I would say 99% of us don't follow them day in day out. There is also nothing easy about the basics of bodybuilding because it's hard work to be consistent in all areas day in day out.
 

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