What is The "TRUTH" about your liver and gear

[mulldog]

Ok ive read alot on this forum about steroids and how they effect your liver. So basically i am still a little bit uneducated on this topic. And i know that there are probably a few people on this board with the same question. So i guess this is directed at the more expirienced/knowledgeable people.
Ok we all know that d-bol (methandrostenolone) is to some extent "liver toxic". (Depending on dosages). So whats the reality of the dangers of steroids to your liver especially d-bol? Ok, pretend for a second your doing a cycle of d-bol with test e for a 4 or 6 week cycle and at that rate you are doing 20mg a day of d-bol. Is a dosage of this something that you shouldnt have to worry about to much with liver toxicity but instead a dose that you should worry about would be aroung 25mg -50mg and up? So i guess i have sort of explained my question but i guess im just saying "what is the reality of the dangers with steroids and your liver?"
I mean some say its overated and theres nothing to worry about but ive also heard that it is a very big issue. So do you guys think that liver protectants would be a good idea all in all? It seems to me that most people on this forum dont really address this problem so im guessing its overated????
Thanks everyone.

 

[coolkat]

Good point Mulldog.
I guess I must admit, to some extent, I want to know exactly what I can get away with. I like D-Bol to kick start a cycle and / or help burst through a sticking point.
Plus, sorry you pure'sts, I like to drink several lite beers several times a week and have done so on 20-30 mg of D-ball with my liver values only slightly elevated. However, bloodwork done after 2 weeks of a Tren/Test-Eth, - 10 mg of D-bol and 30 mg - per day of Turanabol resulted in my ALT and AST just a point out of range but My GGT over 2x range ( Normal being 0-65 , mine was 145)

Now this was only 24 hours after stopping the orals and after a 12 hour fast.

SHOULD I BE CONCERNED ALL IN ALL ???? Also, how about the protective effects of LIV 52 and Milk Thistle ?????

 

[mulldog]

thanks for your prompt response. Im not to familiar with all of the levels etc and what they mean but as for the milk thistle in my opinion from what ive read it isnt that effective but in a low dose situation (d-bol) i guess it would be alright. Ive also read that its beast to take milk thistle after your cycle beacuse it somehow interferes with the anabolic effect. (something along those lines) I guess LIV 52 would work better whilst on the cycle.
I mean after all, all you hear in the news and in the paper is how some famous baseball player or some guy died of liver cancer from the use of steroids. Im not sure that they got liver disease from steroids or maybe that were using to high of a dosage or maybe even they werent using protectants but i tend to hear that alot. They even may have just genetically been expecting it. More info would be great. Thanks guys.

 

[coolkat]

Well, I don't here anybody dieing from liver cancer due to AAS 17 - Alka ( ORALS ) .

yet, I think what most of the majority says is , in the name of healthy living/ safe cycling, ; "don't even chance it".

In other words, liver toxicty has been over rated. Believe me, I am 48 yo and have done a lot of rec. drugs and heavy drinking in my 20's, yet got back in to exercise and healthy living, ect. And bloodwork came out impeccable.

However, I do believe your need to "clean out", fast, Cleanse, or whatever periodaclly.

Just think what David Crosby ( famous musician formly of Crosby, Stllis, Nash, and Young ) did to his body, had a liver transplant and is doing OK, I think.

Point is, ..... I find it hard to believe that most of us ever push our bodies even 50% as hard as he did.

Yet again, Mulldog, I would liketo know more, ... let's say, ... apples to apples comparisons of liver toxic agents.

oh yeah, Tylenol is much more toxic than D-Bol. So, ......................

 

[alan1973]

thanks for your prompt response. Im not to familiar with all of the levels etc and what they mean but as for the milk thistle in my opinion from what ive read it isnt that effective but in a low dose situation (d-bol) i guess it would be alright. Ive also read that its beast to take milk thistle after your cycle beacuse it somehow interferes with the anabolic effect. (something along those lines) I guess LIV 52 would work better whilst on the cycle.
I mean after all, all you hear in the news and in the paper is how some famous baseball player or some guy died of liver cancer from the use of steroids. Im not sure that they got liver disease from steroids or maybe that were using to high of a dosage or maybe even they werent using protectants but i tend to hear that alot. They even may have just genetically been expecting it. More info would be great. Thanks guys.

personally I would not take any chances. i thought using safe orals would not cause gyno, now I know better. I take Liv 52 DS (double strength) EOD and so far my liver values have been fine. i think even off AAS, it would be a good idea. especially for those that drink.

 

[km2000]

the liv 52 is good but there is a new research chem out that is the shit!
by far the best for liver detox also has some more benifits!
What is it?
Glutathione is a small protein composed of three amino acids: cysteine, glutamic acid, and glycine.

Glutathione is involved in detoxification—it binds to toxins, such as heavy metals, solvents, and pesticides, and transforms them into a form that can be excreted in urine or bile. Glutathione is also an important antioxidant. In preliminary research, dietary glutathione intake from fruit and raw vegetables has been associated with protection against some forms of cancer.1 2 Glutathione has also inhibited cancer in test tube3 and animal studies.4 In preliminary research, higher glutathione levels have also been associated with good health in older adults.5

Glutathione supplements appear to be efficiently absorbed in rats.6 7 However, the same may not be true for glutathione supplements in humans. For example, when seven healthy people were given a single application of up to 3,000 mg of glutathione, there was no increase in blood glutathione levels.8 The authors of the study concluded "it is not feasible to increase circulating glutathione to a clinically beneficial extent by the oral administrating of a single application of 3,000 mg of glutathione." Absorption of glutathione may be better in rats because unlike the gastrointestinal tract of rats, the human gastrointestinal tract contains significant amounts of an enzyme (gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase) that breaks down glutathione. Preliminary evidence has suggested that absorption of glutathione can occur in the mouth when glutathione tablets are placed between the teeth and the inner cheek.9

Some researchers believe that supplements other than oral glutathione may be more effective in raising blood levels of glutathione. For example, in one trial, blood glutathione levels rose nearly 50% in healthy people taking 500 mg of vitamin C per day for only two weeks.10 Vitamin C raises glutathione by helping the body manufacture it. In addition to vitamin C, other nutritional compounds that may, according to preliminary research, help increase glutathione levels include alpha lipoic acid,11 glutamine,12 methionine,13 S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe),14 and whey protein.15 Vitamin B6, riboflavin, and selenium are required in the manufacture of glutathione. The extent to which any of these nutrients effectively increases glutathione levels in humans remains unclear.

Studies using intravenous or intramuscular glutathione have found it to be useful for preventing clot formation during operations;16 reducing the side effects and increasing the efficacy of chemotherapy drugs (particularly cisplatin in women with ovarian cancer);17 18 treating Parkinson’s disease;19 reducing blood pressure in people with diabetes who had high blood pressure;20 and increasing sperm counts in men with low sperm counts.21 22 A glutathione nasal spray has also reduced symptoms in people with chronic rhinitis.23 Whether oral preparations are also effective is unknown at this time. A small study in eight patients with liver cancer using oral glutathione showed modest benefits in women, but not in men, when given in a daily amount of 5,000 mg.24

An unpublished preliminary study of eight colon cancer patients also found that oral glutathione appeared to have anticancer activity.25 Nonetheless, because questions exist about the extent to which oral glutathione can be absorbed, some doctors are concerned that oral preparations may be either less effective than other forms or not effective at all.

Where is it found?
Dietary glutathione is found in fresh and frozen fruits and vegetables, fish, and meat.26 Asparagus, avocado, and walnuts are particularly rich dietary sources of glutathione.

 

[bgmke7]

i have seen this question so many times and the answer is there is no answer.there is no way to say what will happen with you or someone else.you could take 30mg 0f dbol and have problems where as i can take 200mg/day and only have slightly elevated enzymes.now will guarantee that you will evently take down your kidneys if your not careful.(i have).everyone is concerned about their liver when they should be watching their cholesterol and kidney functions(my bad cholesterol was 240 and i had absolutly no good cholesterol,0......).now dont get me wrong,i in no way regret anything i have done to get where i am or was(im on the down hill slide).i knew the risks and i pushed the limits,its what i wanted.but when the problems become reality and you realize that all the hard work and dedication is about to slip through you're fingers you begin to wonder what was it for...........the gym is where i was most happy.i was free and on top of the world..............i would never change that.......

 

[bio labs]

ITS YOUR KIDNEYS YOU MUST WORRY ABOUT, NOT YOUR LIVER.

LIVER IS A TOUGH AS ORGAN!

KIDNEYS TAKE A BEATING WITH ORALS.

 

[mulldog]

Thanks guys some very good info, again im not to famaliar with kidney levels etc but im sure the doc can fill me in. Now, Bio Labs, you say its not so much your liver to worry about but your kidneys. Can you further elaborate on this? Such as. What it does exactly to them, ways to help prevent it like supplemets or vitamins etc. thanks. So i guess thus far gear and your liver are things you shouldnt worry about to musch in low dosages but its best to be safe and go ahead and get some LIV 52 etc. Cool

 

[xcelbeyond]

Good point Mulldog.
I guess I must admit, to some extent, I want to know exactly what I can get away with. I like D-Bol to kick start a cycle and / or help burst through a sticking point.
Plus, sorry you pure'sts, I like to drink several lite beers several times a week and have done so on 20-30 mg of D-ball with my liver values only slightly elevated. However, bloodwork done after 2 weeks of a Tren/Test-Eth, - 10 mg of D-bol and 30 mg - per day of Turanabol resulted in my ALT and AST just a point out of range but My GGT over 2x range ( Normal being 0-65 , mine was 145)

Now this was only 24 hours after stopping the orals and after a 12 hour fast.

SHOULD I BE CONCERNED ALL IN ALL ???? Also, how about the protective effects of LIV 52 and Milk Thistle ?????

Read post #3!!! http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11044

 

[alan1973]

Read post #3!!! http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11044

with his elevated GGT, I think he already has something to worry about.

 

[bgmke7]

Thanks guys some very good info, again im not to famaliar with kidney levels etc but im sure the doc can fill me in. Now, Bio Labs, you say its not so much your liver to worry about but your kidneys. Can you further elaborate on this? Such as. What it does exactly to them, ways to help prevent it like supplemets or vitamins etc. thanks. So i guess thus far gear and your liver are things you shouldnt worry about to musch in low dosages but its best to be safe and go ahead and get some LIV 52 etc. Cool

if you drink alot of alcohol and/or take other oral medications then you may still need to watch your liver.as for your kidneys you need to drink alot of fluids everyday.the simplest way to put things is that steroids cause the body to get dehydrated fairly easy.this will put extra stress on your kidneys which you may not notice at first.watch your urine color and sometimes you may get a dull pain in one or both sides of your lower back area.if you get any of the symptoms then increase you fluid intake and drop the orals.

 

[BrooklynBB]

ITS YOUR KIDNEYS YOU MUST WORRY ABOUT, NOT YOUR LIVER.

LIVER IS A TOUGH AS ORGAN!

KIDNEYS TAKE A BEATING WITH ORALS.

Hi Bio.

This is interesting - how exactly do orals affect the kidneys?

 

[sweatandscience]

if you drink alot of alcohol and/or take other oral medications then you may still need to watch your liver.as for your kidneys you need to drink alot of fluids everyday.the simplest way to put things is that steroids cause the body to get dehydrated fairly easy.this will put extra stress on your kidneys which you may not notice at first.watch your urine color and sometimes you may get a dull pain in one or both sides of your lower back area.if you get any of the symptoms then increase you fluid intake and drop the orals.

Good advice. I have had those symptoms and, being so focused on the liver, didn't give it much thought.

I thought I was drinking enough water, but doubling it and spreading it out throught the day has helped everything from my mood to that "dull pain".


And all of this was going on with no orals. Plus I heard that the protein shakes are rough on the kidneys, too.

 

[Max32]

As far as 'preventative' supps go:

Synthetec synthergine - never used but many swear by it

Himalaya Liv 52

Thermolife Liver Longer

Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support - for the money, this is a yr round supp for me. Takes care of liver, blood pressure, prostate, and cholesterol, and is in a powder form that can be mixed into shakes.
R-ala

Curcumin - extract of tumeric root - this has really helped me in recovery time, joint soreness, liver toxicity. Cheap and great overall supplement.

I take liver longer or Liv 52, alternating. I take the bold supps yr round.

 

[Resurface]

I think some could be hype.

The anti-steroid doctors and naysayers say that Steroids are extremely dangerous for your liver. I think that it is hyped up to give scare tactics to the public! Makes Anabolic steroids look evil!

But the American Public is gullable. Look at most of the drug ads you see on TV and in magazines. You will almost always hear or read that you need to check with your doctor for liver problems. Most oral drugs have that effect. The liver will break down the drug if its not protected. Cholesterol Medicines are known for it!

Basically, alot of orals such as Vitamin "D" and other orals is the alpha-alkalated. If I can remember right, there is a carbon molecule in the 17th position which helps protect the chemical molecules from being broke down in the liver. So, with that, the liver supposedly works harder.

Reading the boards in all my time, I have never heard or read of anyone developing liver problems from anabolics. But with the liver protection that you can get OTC, and its affordability, why not take precaution?!

It depends alot on your genes. How many of you have seen people that lead very healthy lives, eat healthy but still have high cholesterol? Then there are some that eat crap and have low levels of cholesterol.

 

[BALDNAZI]

You guys are kidding right?

How quickly you all forget what happened to me.I had to have my entire right lobe removed.Do a search on this board,my whole story is right there for you.

 

[Big Danny]

In the past I was a milk thistle fan, but now I realised that synthergine is my best choice in order to be as close as possible to 100% protection for my liver.

 

[b4n30n3]

How quickly you all forget what happened to me.I had to have my entire right lobe removed.Do a search on this board,my whole story is right there for you.

How much orals were you using?

 

[gtj220]

Hi Bio.

This is interesting - how exactly do orals affect the kidneys?

Not discount the liver issue but Tom Prince, Flex Wheeler and Mike Francios all had serious kidney issues. Not 100% sure about Mike but Tom and Flex had transplants.