Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
esquel
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
ashp210
UGFREAK-banner-PM
1-SWEDISH-PEPTIDE-CO
YMSApril21065
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
tjk
advertise1
advertise1
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

Dat's - CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)


In general the majority of studies involving human beings seem to not look at life as a continuum of change and instead focus on some sort of duality such as young vs old comparisons. In studies concerning hormonal flux in women the demarcation seems to be between the category of premenopause or postmenopause.

For instance in a study I just finished reading, Effects of soy protein and isoflavones on circulating hormone concentrations in pre- and post-menopausal women: a systematic review and meta-analysis, L. Hooper, Human Reproduction Update, Vol.1, No.1 pp. 1–18, 2009, they identified and examined Forty-seven (47) studies that looked at the hormonal effects of soy and isoflavones on circulating levels of hormones in women. Only one (1) of those studies focused on perimenopausal women. The other studies focused on either pre- or post- menopausal women.

Incidently they didn't find statistically significant changes in any of the groups except in premenopausal women they found "significantly reduced Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing hormone (LH) [by 20% using standardized mean difference]". This led to an increase in menstrual cycle length by 1.05 days. Now this leads to something interesting to me (which you might already know):

"...the increase in menstrual cycle length suggests an anti-estrogenic effect, with longer cycles linked to reduced breast cancer risk (Setchell et al., 1984; Kelsey et al., 1993; Cassidy et al., 1994; Duncan et al., 1999a; Messina et al., 2006a), and a growing body of evidence that increased lifetime soy exposure lowers breast cancer risk (Wu et al., 2008)."

I include the citations below * because I (or others) might want to follow up in this area because "isoflavones have a weaker binding affinity for estrogen receptors than endogenous estrogens, circulating levels of isoflavones following consumption of soy will exceed endogenous estrogen levels by several orders of magnitude". This might lead to a "blocking the receptor" effect which could lower cancer risk.

So back to your question.

Growth hormone (GH) but not GHRH has direct stimulating effects on progesterone.
GHRH may stimulate LH which may have an indirect effect on progesterone
Both GH and Prolactin (PRL) are synergistic with IGF-I for increased progesterone secretion at certain times.

These conclusions are from animal studies. I apologize for not having a clinical study on hand (at the moment) but these general statements should (from memory) hold true for humans.

As far as smoothing out hormonal flux I don't think that will occur w/ GHRH/GHRP-6. The only study I have in my database is one that measured which pituitary hormones fluxed when a hot flash (menopausal) occurred.

Pituitary hormones during the menopausal hot flash. DR Meldrum, JD Defazio, Y Erlik, JK Lu, AF Wolfsen, HE Carlson, JM Hershman, and HL Judd, Obstet Gynecol, December 1, 1984; 64(6): 752-6

Eighteen postmenopausal women with severe hot flashes had continuous recordings of finger temperature and skin resistance as objective indexes of flushing episodes, and serial measurements of anterior pituitary hormones as indirect indexes of hypothalamic neurotransmitter activity.

Significant increases of growth hormone, adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), and luteinizing hormone (LH) occurred with maximal concentrations at 30, five, and 15 minutes, respectively, after the onset of the skin temperature rises.

No significant fluctuations of prolactin (PRL), thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), or follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were observed. The mean serum cortisol concentration increased 15 minutes after the hot flash, presumably consequent to the preceding elevation of ACTH.

Pituitary ACTH release may be secondary to hypothalamic cooling, whereas increased growth hormone and LH output and the thermoregulatory adjustments comprising the flushing episodes are all consistent with cyclic episodes of increased hypothalamic norepinephrine activity.​

I find the following study provides a good background it examines the converse of your query which is the extent to which exogenously administered estrogen (oral vs transdermal) w/ progesterone effects GH & IGF-1

Effect of menopause and different combined estradiol-progestin regimens on basal and growth hormone-releasing hormone–stimulated serum growth hormone, insulin-like growth factor-1, insulin-like growth factor binding protein (IGFBP)-1, and IGFBP-3 levels, Antonio Cano, M.D., Ph.D., Fertility And Sterility Vol. 71, No. 2, February 1999

Introduction:

The decrease in the functionality of the growth hormone (GH)–insulin-like growth factor- 1 (IGF-1) axis has been implicated in the undesirable effects of aging in women, such as the increase in adiposity, loss of lean body mass, and development of osteoporosis (1). Various investigators (2– 4) have documented an age-related decrease in GH and IGF-1 levels, but the available data do not take into account menopausal status. The influence of menopause on the somatotropic axis, therefore, has not been sufficiently explored, as confirmed by the omission of this topic at a recent consensus conference (5).

Some studies have shown a relationship between somatotropic activity and levels of ovarian steroids (2, 6). It is believed that circulating levels of GH and IGF-1 correlate with the decrease in plasma E2 levels that occurs during menopause (7). In support of this theory, the administration of estrogens to menopausal women increases the amplitude of GH pulses, augmenting serum GH concentrations (8).

However, there are some discrepancies in the literature with regard to concentrations of IGF-1. In two separate studies, the same investigators reported a strong trend toward first lower (9) and then normal (10) levels of IGF-1 during the perimenopausal period in association with high levels of endogenous E2; estrogen replacement after menopause, however, is followed by decreased serum levels of IGF-1 (11– 13).
The reason for the apparent difference between endogenous and exogenous estrogens remains unknown. Reports of disparate effects associated with the transdermal and oral routes of estrogen administration also are found in the literature (11, 13, 14).

To complicate the issue further, changes in the bioactivity of IGF-1, in addition to its concentrations, may affect the secretion of GH. Knowledge of the IGF binding proteins (IGFBPs) is crucial to a full understanding of IGF-1 action. Few data are available on the relative effects of oral and transdermal estrogens or on the effects of the combination of estrogen plus progestin on serum concentrations of the IGFBPs.

Analysis of the available literature reveals that it often is fragmentary; investigators have examined only a part of the axis or have tested estrogens without progestins when the hormones commonly are combined in clinical practice.
The objectives of this study were twofold: to obtain a global view of the somatotropic axis after menopause and to study the effect of different hormone replacement therapy (HRT) protocols that included oral or transdermal E2 plus progestin. We compared a group of untreated postmenopausal women with a control group of premenopausal women. Then we administered one oral and two transdermal dosages of E2 in combination with medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA). We assessed the somatotropic axis through measurement of basal and growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH)– stimulated GH, IGF-1, IGFBP-1, and IGFBP-3 levels. We also measured levels of related peptides, such as insulin and C peptide.

Results (In abstract format):

Basal GH levels were negatively correlated with age in premenopausal women but not in postmenopausal women.

The area under the GHRH-induced GH curve decreased in older postmenopausal women after the oral estrogen protocol.

Levels of IGF-I diminished after the oral E2 protocol in postmenopausal women.

Conclusion(s): The administration of oral, but not transdermal, E2 plus medroxyprogesterone acetate at the usual clinical doses used in postmenopausal women decreased IGF- I levels and the response of GH to GHRH in older women. No substantial changes were detected in IGFBP-1, IGFBP-3, insulin, or C peptide levels.​


* Soy citations:

Setchell KD, Borriello SP, Hulme P, Kirk DN, Axelson M. Nonsteroidal estrogens of dietary origin—possible roles in hormone-dependent disease. Am J Clin Nutr (1984) 40:569–578

Kelsey JL, Gammon MD, John EM. Reproductive factors and breast cancer. Epidemiol Rev (1993) 15:36–47.

Cassidy A, Bingham SA, Setchell KD. Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women. Am J Clin Nutr (1994) 60:333–340

Duncan AM, Merz BE, Xu X, Nagel TC, Phipps WR, Kurzer MS. Soy isoflavones exert modest hormonal effects in premenopausal women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (1999) a 84:192–197

Messina M, McCaskill-Stevens W, Lampe JW. Addressing the soy and breast cancer relationship: review, commentary, and workshop proceedings. J Natl Cancer Inst (2006) a 98:1275–1284

Wu AH, Yu MC, Tseng C-C, Pike MC. Epidemiology of soy exposure and breast cancer risk. Br J Cancer (2008) 98:9–14
 
Last edited:
DatBtrue,
What is your opinion on using 6-8g of L-Glycine in place of Arginine to boost GH output? I have low blood pressure and had problems (passing out!) when dosing 8g of Arginine 3X/day. From what I can gather, it is additive when GH is increasing.
 
Last edited:
Im sure this may have been anwsered on here before but maybe i missed it. Im a bit confused on something with ghrp6. If 100mcg is the saturation dose then why use more than that in one setting? I know not all the ghrp6 is %100 pure but lets say you get some bad quality ghrp thats %80. You could just do 120mcg ghrp6 to get your saturation dose. So why is it worth using 200-300mcg at a time? I would think if you wanted to use 400-600mcg per day of GHRP6 it would be most benefitial to use it at its saturation dose 4-6x per day?
 
Im sure this may have been anwsered on here before but maybe i missed it. Im a bit confused on something with ghrp6. If 100mcg is the saturation dose then why use more than that in one setting? I know not all the ghrp6 is %100 pure but lets say you get some bad quality ghrp thats %80. You could just do 120mcg ghrp6 to get your saturation dose. So why is it worth using 200-300mcg at a time? I would think if you wanted to use 400-600mcg per day of GHRP6 it would be most benefitial to use it at its saturation dose 4-6x per day?

For a study (instead of the sound of Dat's voice ...he has a very pleasant voice by-the-way. :) ) see Post #612 - GHRPs & Dosing: 100mcg, 200mcg or more?

Now those dosing numbers don't have to be absolutes (as you point out... there is likely to be variability) but it gives you some idea about dosing and diminishing returns.
 
Quad-smack said:
DatBtrue,
What is your opinion on using 6-8g of L-Glycine in place of Arginine to boost GH output?

A very old study found:

"The dose of 4 or 8 g glycine induced a significant increase in serum GH (P < 0.05 or P< 0.001, respectively); however, a more pronounced and significant increase in serum GH levels was observed after infusion at a dose of 12 g glycine (P < 0.001). It was clearly observed that the dose-dependent GH release to intravenous glycine occurred in normal subjects. On the contrary, serum Prl level was not changed significantly, and blood sugar level was transiently, but significantly (P < 0.05), increased after the infusion of 12 g glycine." - Glycine stimulates growth hormone release in man, Kikuo Kasai, Acta Endocrinologica, 1980 Vol 93, Issue 3, 283-286

In an very, very old study (but still younger then moi ...I still remember Vietnam news updates interrupting my Saturday morning cartoons :) ), they found:

"A solution of 10% glycine (250 mg/kg of body weight) was injected in within 5-10 minutes in 22 healthy, sexually immature children who were previously tested for insulin-induced hypoglycemia. Blood specimens were collected before, 10, 30, 60 and 120 minutes after injection for glucose, HGH and total alpha-amino nitrogen determination. The mean peak post-glycine level of serum HGH was 11.47 +/- 1.558 ng/ml (+/- SEM) and did not differ significantly from the corresponding post-insulin mean value (15.63 +/- 0.247 ng/ml). The highest post-stimulatory mean value (8.88 +/- 1.694 ng/ml) was observed 30 minutes after the end of the injection of glycine. Glycine is a reliable GH stimulating agent, which may be tentatively used for detection of hyposomatotropism in children." - Growth hormone release by glycine injected intravenously in 22 healthy sexually immature children, M Popa and I Florea, Biomedicine, April 30, 1975; 23(4): 131-3

That is 25mgs in a 100kg man.

However the authors of the first study mentioned above, K Kasai had previously found that it did not work in diabetics.

"...in nonobese diabetics, no significant increase of serum hGH level, even after the intraduodenal administration of glycine, was observed in the present study." They did find a GH rise in non-diabetics. - Stimulatory effect of glycine on human growth hormone secretion, K Kasai, M Kobayashi, and SI Shimoda, Metabolism, February 1, 1978; 27(2): 201-8

Quad-smack said:
From what I can gather, it is additive when GH is increasing. So, would it be best to take it 5 minutes post GRF(1-29)/GHRP-6?

I believe it may work through the same neuronal pathway as Gaba.

The problem is that these are a few old studies. Nobody cares about glycine because it is IMHO not something that will be consistently reliable day in and day out, week in and week out and year in and year out.

Really so what that something spikes GH ...what is the effect of repeated dosing? You have a significant amount of glycine already in your body and you are not "growth hormone happy".

Anyway, play around with it if you want. It likely won't add to a GHRH/GHRP-6 protocol as its action doesn't appear to be somatostatin inhibition.

There are reasons that it hasn't been studied in the last 30 years ...it is apt to be an inferior GH releaser.

There are reasons why you are hearing about it now. Supplement companies... and places like Anabolicminds where the collective masses act as shills ...where the supplement companies pay the board owner to sell their make-believe products ...where anything that can not be legally capitalized on is not welcome.

GHRH & GHRPs can not be sold for public consumption let alone injection by these companies so instead they borrow cool sounding names like secretagogues and sell inexpensive amino acids w/ some sweet flavoring and caffeine so people can feel something for $49.99.

Okay I'm done with my rant. :)
 
Okay Welt... I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you on your question on the pharmacokinetics of long-acting insulin. I don't have an answer for you.

But I do question the wisdom of having chronically elevated insulin levels.

The more I research...the more I discover rhythms and rhythms that relate to other types of rhythms. What we are talking about could simply be thought of as communication between & among cell groupings and activation, deactivation and modulation of intracellular mechanisms.

......

I don't want to ramble on...but I do want to emphasize that yes insulin (even physiological levels) are important to promote growth with growth hormone, but that chronic always on levels of insulin are not what is desirable.

DatBTrue, you might know of one respected researcher on a UK forum recommending long-acting insulin use, morning dosing of 10-20IUs. Given the half-life one would expect it give elevated basal insulin levels for up 20hrs.

Specifically, you talked about mitogenic effects of insulin, and the following is a snippet referenced which would indicate that Lantus, a long-acting insulin analogue would indeed be very productive - 8-9 times regular insulin.

How would you feel of administering this on the morning of workout days 3-4x/week vs. Humulin-R post-WO?

"It is still controversially discussed whether insulin triggers mitogenic effects through its own receptor, by interacting with IGF-1R or by activating insulin/IGF-1 hybrid receptors (Eckel, 2005).

In the light of these discussions, the structural changes of the insulin molecule to create rapid- or long-acting insulin analogues become increasingly important. It is known that modifications in the B10 and B26-B30 region are able to change the affinity towards the IGF-1R (Slieker et al., 1997). This has been demonstrated for AspB10 insulin which is known for its strong tumourigenic action (Drejer, 1992). Studies investigating receptor binding properties of insulin analogues have shown that AspB10 insulin and insulin glargine have a 6 to 8-fold and insulin lispro a 1.5-fold higher affinity to the IGF-1R compared with regular insulin (Kurtzhals et al., 2000), while insulin aspart (Bornfeldt et al., 1991) and insulin glulisine (Ciaraldi et al., 2005; Rakatzi et al., 2003a) have a low affinity to the IGF-1R similar to regular insulin. For insulin detemir a 5-fold lower affinity to the IGF-1R has been found (Kurtzhals et al., 2000)."
 
For a study (instead of the sound of Dat's voice ...he has a very pleasant voice by-the-way. :) ) see Post #612 - GHRPs & Dosing: 100mcg, 200mcg or more?

Now those dosing numbers don't have to be absolutes (as you point out... there is likely to be variability) but it gives you some idea about dosing and diminishing returns.

ohh so it goes by weight. I didnt take that into consideration. So i guess 100mcg isnt the sat dose for everyone. Im 250lbs so I should probably be using around 200mcg for my sat dose? Or maybe I read everything wrong b/c im not the greatest at comprehending what I read :(
 
ohh so it goes by weight. I didnt take that into consideration. So i guess 100mcg isnt the sat dose for everyone. Im 250lbs so I should probably be using around 200mcg for my sat dose? Or maybe I read everything wrong b/c im not the greatest at comprehending what I read :(

Saturation dose is referred to either as 1mcg/kg OR 100mcg.

Now let me introduce you to the metric system you silly-assed American. :)

100kg = 220 pounds

So 250 pounds = 113kgs ...so saturation dose for you is 113mcg

Did you know that you weigh 1/8th of a U.S. Ton?

By-the way in order to use 200mcg by dosing according to the formula 1mcg/kg, you would need to weigh 440 pounds!

So what have we established here?

That you are truly a silly-assed American. :D Not that there is anything wrong with it...
 
DatBTrue, you might know of one respected researcher on a UK forum recommending long-acting insulin use, morning dosing of 10-20IUs. Given the half-life one would expect it give elevated basal insulin levels for up 20hrs.

Specifically, you talked about mitogenic effects of insulin, and the following is a snippet referenced which would indicate that Lantus, a long-acting insulin analogue would indeed be very productive - 8-9 times regular insulin.

How would you feel of administering this on the morning of workout days 3-4x/week vs. Humulin-R post-WO?

Stop seeking out magic bullets and gurus. Damn!

I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll post on protein metabolism and then you can decide what you want to do ...based on what would be effective ...based on good solid information concerning how anabolism comes about.
 
Protein Metabolism - The complementary role of various hormones in inducing Anabolism

Too many people have very little idea how the following factors work together in increasing protein synthesis and preventing protein breakdown. If they truly understood these things would they give up seeking THE magic bullet? I doubt it... Would they stop seeking out self-proclaimed gurus who in my opinion fail miserably in understanding these things themselves.

  • Insulin
  • Growth Hormone
  • Amino Acid Pool
  • Exercise
  • Blood Flow
  • IGF-1
  • IGF-1/IGFBP-3
  • Androgens
  • Thyroid Hormones

What follows are basically my notes structured in such a way as to be highly readable, massively informative and well referenced for further research should someone be so inclined.

I didn't really intend to post this for public consumption so forgive the format. I ask that you not cut and paste this post onto other forums. Basically it is here for anyone who reads this thread and no one else.

The following post was derived both generally and specifically from the following studies. Additional studies are provided as references for selective material herein.

An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein, Gianni Biolo, Am. J. Physiol. 273 (Endocrinol. Metab. 36): El22-E129, 1997.

Acute Growth Hormone Effects on Amino Acid and Lipid Metabolism, K. C. Copeland, Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Vol. 78, No. 5 1994

Effects of Insulin-Like Growth Factor-1/Binding Protein-3 Complex on Muscle Atrophy in Rats, Martin M. Zdanowicz, 2003 by the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine

Hormonal regulation of human protein metabolism, Pierpaolo De Feo, Eur J Endocrinol 1996:135:7-18

Physiologic Hyperinsulinemia Stimulates Protein Synthesis and Enhances Transport of Selected Amino Acids in Human Skeletal Muscle, Gianni Biolo, J. Clin. Invest. vol. 95, 811 - 819

Skeletal muscle protein anabolic response to resistance exercise and essential amino acids is delayed with aging, Micah J. Drummond, J Appl Physiol 104: 1452-1461, 2008

Compartmental model of leucine kinetics in humans, Claudio Cobelli, Am. J. Physiol. 261 (Endocrinol. Metab. 24): E539-E550, 1991

Dose-response curves of effects of insulin on leucine kinetics in humans, Paolo Tessari, Am. J. Physiol. 251 (Endocrinol. Metab. 14): E334-E342, 1986.

Growth hormone decreases muscle glutamine production and stimulates protein synthesis in hypercatabolic patients, Gianni Biolo, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 279:323-332, 2000

Increased rates of muscle protein turnover and amino acid transport after resistance exercise in humans, Gianni Biolo, Am. J. Physiol. 268 (Endocrinol. Metab. 31): E514-E520, 1995.

Insulin action on protein metabolism in acromegalic patients, Alberto Battezzati, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 284:823-829, 2003

Leucine and phenylalanine kinetics during mixed meal ingestion a multiple tracer approach, Gianni Biolo, Am. J. Physiol. 262 (Endocrinol. Metab. 25): E455-E463,1992.

Protein synthesis and breakdown in skin and muscle a leg model of amino acid kinetics, Gianni Biolo, Am. J. Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E467-E474, 1994.

Transmembrane transport and intracellular kinetics of amino acids in human skeletal muscle, Gianni Biolo, Am. J. Physiol. 268 (Endocrinol. Metab. 31): E75-E84, 1995.

Insulin

There is indirect evidence that post-prandial [after a meal] hyperinsulinemia induces protein anabolism, other than through the suppression of whole-body proteolysis [i.e. protein breakdown/ catabolism], also by facilitating the incorporation of dietary amino acids into new proteins. In fact, when post-prandial hyperinsulinemia and hyperaminoacidemia [high insulin & high amino acids] are reproduced in normal subjects by a combined intravenous infusion of insulin and amino acids, the estimates of whole-body protein synthesis increase more than after amino acids alone (20).

[Insulin + Amino Acids = greater increase in entire body protein synthesis]

The stimulatory effect of hyperinsulinemia on whole-body protein synthesis cannot be demonstrated when insulin alone is infused (20-25). In this case, by reducing the rate of protein breakdown, hyperinsulinemia decreased the intracellular concentrations of most amino acids (26), limiting their utilization for protein synthesis (27).

[In other words the store of amino acids (often called the intracellular amino acid pool) is replenished in two ways. One by eating/ingestion of protein & the other by the breakdown of protein in muscle (i.e. protein degradation). This latter, protein degradation reduces protein to its constituent parts (amino acids) which will be transported outside the cell & either be further removed or remain in the amino acid pool (which resides between muscle cells) and is available for reuse in muscle for the next round of transport into muscle & new protein synthesis. Insulin reduces protein breakdown so the amino acid pools are not replenished.]

Branched-chain amino acids are particularly sensitive to hyperinsulinemia (28) and it has been shown the insulin-induced suppression of plasma isoleucine concentration (29), i.e. of a single essential amino acid, is sufficient to decrease wholebody protein synthesis.

[So in essence protein synthesis requires all the essential amino acids. If one is missing no protein synthesis will occur.]

The results of recent studies demonstrate that the effects of insulin on whole-body protein kinetics represent the mean results of differential effects of the hormone on the rates of protein breakdown and synthesis of individual proteins. For instance, despite the rate of whole-body proteolysis being decreased by insulin (20-25), the rate of muscle protein proteolysis is not affected by local hyperinsulinemia (30). Such a differential effect can be explained by the fact that insulin decreases the proteolytic activity of lysosomes but does not control the ubiquitin system (31) that is responsible for the bulk of muscle proteolysis (31).

[So insulin decreases protein breakdown/degradation throughout the entire body but does not inhibit protein breakdown specifically in muscle.]

References:

20 - Castellino P, Luzi L, Simonson DC. Haymond M. DeFronzo RA. Effect of insulin and plasma amino acid concentrations of leucine metabolism in man: role of substrate availability on estimates of whole body protein synthesis. J Clin Invest 1987: 80:1784-9 3

21 - Fukagawa NK. Minaker KL. Rowe JW. Goodman MN. Matthews DE. Bier DM, et al. Insulin-mediated reduction of whole body protein breakdown: dose-response effects on leucine metabo¬ lism in postabsorptive men. J Clin Invest 1985:76:2306-11

22 - Tessari P, Trevisan R, Inchiostro S, Biolo G, Nosadini R, De Kreutzenberg SV, et al. Dose-response curves of effects of insulin on leucine kinetics in humans. Am J Physiol 1986;251:E334-42

23 - Tessari P. Nosadini R. Trevisan R. De Kreutzenberg SV. Inchiostro S. Duner E. et al. Defective suppression by insulin of leucine-carbon appearance and oxidation in type 1, insulin dependent diabets mellitus: evidence for insulin resistance involving glucose amino acid metabolism. J Clin Invest 1986:77:1797-804

24 - Luzi L, Castellino P. Simonson DC, Petrides AS, DeFronzo RA. Leucine metabolism in IDDM: role of insulin and substrate availability. Diabetes 1990:39:38-48

25 - De Feo P. Volpi E, Lucidi P, Cruciani G. Reboldi G. Siepi D, et al. Physiological increments in plasma insulin concentrations have selective and different effects on synthesis of hepatic proteins in normal humans. Diabetes 1993:42:995-1002

26 - Alvestrand A, DeFronzo RA, Smith D, Wahren J. Influence of hyperinsulinaemia on intracellular amino acid levels and amino acid exchange across splanchnic and leg tissues in uraemia. Clin Sci 1988;74:155-63

27 - De Feo P. Haymond MW. Effect of insulin on protein metabolism in humans: methodological and interpretative questions. Diab Nutr Metab 1991:4:241-9

28 - Fukagawa NK. Minaker KL. Young VR. Rowe JW. Insulin dosedependent reductions in plasma amino acids in man. Am J Physiol 1986;250:E13-7

29 - Lecavalier L, De Feo P. Haymond MW. Isolated hypoisoleucinemia impairs whole body but not hepatic protein synthesis in humans. Am J Physiol 1991;261:E578-86

30. Biolo G, Declan Fleming RY. Wolfe RR. Physiologic hyper¬ insulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances trans¬ port of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle. J Clin Invest 1995:95:811-9​


Insulin increases the amount of protein deposited in muscle by directly increasing the rate of protein synthesis (40-60% as measured by lysine & phenylalanine dissapearance from intracellular pools). Insulin does not increase (or regulate) transmember amino acid transport. Therefore transportation of amino acids is not a primary mediator of insulin anabolic actions in muscle.

[So Insulin's primary modes of action are reduction of whole-body protein breakdown as discussed already & in muscle an increase in the rate of protein synthesis. Now it draws on the intracellular pool of amino acids to effect this increased synthesis. It is possible to run out of amino acids from that pool. Insulin can suck the reservoir dry so to speak.

In addition insulin in general (there is an exception) does not increase the rate of transportation of amino acids across the cell membrane into the cell. That remains normal. But the benefit of insulin in muscle is that it increases protein synthesis. However other things are needed besides insulin to effect anabolism.]

Insulin draws on an existing intracellular pool of amino acids. When amino acid concentrations are maintained at levels higher than normal during systemic insulin administration insulin increased muscle protein synthesis (40).

[So anabolism occurs when both insulin increased protein synthesis occurs and amino acid levels are maintained higher then normal. The primary way to effect this is to increase amino acid/protein ingestion.]

40. - Bennett, W. M., A. A. Connacher, C. M. Scringeour, R. T. Jung, and M. J. Rennie. 1990. Euglycemic hyperinsulinemia augments amino acid uptake by human leg tissues during hyperaminoacidemia. Am. J. PhysioL 259:E185-E194​


Insulin does not significantly modify protein breakdown in muscle. It has been shown that, during adequate amino acid supply, the most important degradative system in muscle is an ATP-independent system that requires the presence of a specialized protein, termed ubiquitin. This system is not sensitive to insulin. Concerning protein breakdown Insulin apparently plays a role only in the regulation of the lysosome activity. These intracellular organelles are not involved in the myofibrillar protein degradation in normal conditions, but only in the presence of low insulin levels or decreased amino acid availability).

[So again insulin will increase protein synthesis in muscle but will not inhibit protein breakdown. So in general anabolism will occur if more protein synthesis then protein breakdown occurs.]

Following protein degradation, the amino acids from the degradation event are either transported outward (or in the case of leucine oxidized) or are redirected back into protein synthesis. Phenylalanine & leucine have been shown to be redirected back into protein synthesis while lysine may not.

Insulin induces hyperpolarization in the skeletal muscle cells by directly activating the sodium ion (Na+) and potassium ion (K+) -ATPase pump. Those amino acids which are strongly "attracted" to the electrochemical characteristics of the cell membrane are more readily taken up into muscle from the intracellular pool of amino acids. Alanine & lysine are two amino acids that have this attraction and are more readily drawn into muscle by insulin.

[When protein in muscle is broken down and its constituents removed back to the amino acid pool, those amino acids may be removed from muscle pools entirely, may be reused for new synthesis or for some amino acids oxidized or used for energy. It would not benefit anabolism to lose the important amino acid leucine to oxidation.

Insulin which in general doesn't increase transport of amino acids from pool into cells, does so for a few amino acids which use NA+ & K+ channels, namely alanine & lysine.]


The branched-chain amino acids (leucine, valine, and isoleucine) and the aromatic (phenylalanine and tyrosine) are preferably transported through system L . This sodium-independent system is unable to generate high transmembrane gradients for its substrates. It has been shown that the kinetic characteristics of system L are not influenced by insulin.

[So insulin which has no effect on this mode of transport does not increase the uptake of some very important amino acids.]

Blood flow has been found to increase local amino acid delivery to muscle and secondarily increase amino acid transport. This effect may be responsible for increase in leucine uptake.

[This is an extremely important way in which amino acids are drawn to muscle and into cells. Time and again the important amino acid leucine has been shown to make its way into cells via increase in blood flow.]

Alanine synthesis (which is a function of pyruvate) also increases in the presence of insulin because insulin increases glucose uptake & intracellular pyruvate in muscle.

[Certain amino acids can be synthesized from the breakdown of other amino acids. Alanine is one of them. Alanine is often used for energy and so protein synthesis rate or anabolism may depend on the availability of alanine not yet oxidized. The fact that insulin increases alanine synthesis is a desirable effect.]

The anabolic effect of insulin on muscle may have become self-limited because of an intracellular depletion of precursor amino acids for protein synthesis, unless amino acid transport is independently stimulated by other factors, i.e., amino acid administration.

[Again an external source of amino acids is needed to make insulin anabolic in muscle.]

31. Kettlehut IC. Wing SS. Goldberg AL. Endocrine regulation of protein breakdown in skeletal muscle. Diab Metab Rev 1988;4:751-72​

---
Growth Hormone

See: Post #777 - What does GH contribute to anabolism besides creating IGF-1?

Growth hormone promotes protein anabolism with mechanisms different from insulin. It does not affect the rates of whole-body proteolysis but decreases those of amino acid oxidation (51, 52). The sparing effect on amino acid oxidation results in a greater rate of their incorporation into proteins (51-53), with a net protein anabolic effect.

51. Horber FF. Haymond MW. Human growth hormone prevents the protein catabolic side effects of prednisone in humans. J Clin Invest 1990:86:265-72

52. Copeland KC. Nair KS. Acute growth hormone effects on amino acid and lipid metabolism. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994: 78:1040-7

53. Yarasheski KE. Campbell JA. Smith K, Rennie MJ, Holloszy JO, Bier DM. Effect of growth hormone and resistance exercise on muscle growth in young men. Am J Physiol 1992;262:E261-7​

[So Growth Hormone decreases amino acid oxidation (or break down for energy). This should have the effect of preserving key amino acids in that very important amino acid pool. This means that muscle protein synthesis or even increased muscle protein synthesis induced by insulin will be more prolonged because there will be a larger pool of raw material (aminos) to draw from.]

---
Growth hormone decreases muscle glutamine production

In agreement with previous observations in animals (20, 23), this study shows that rhGH infusion in traumatized patients accelerates the rates of transmembrane transport of the essential amino acids leucine and phenylalanine. This effect was independent of changes of leg blood flow and arterial amino acid concentrations. This rhGH-mediated increased ability of transmembrane systems to transport essential amino acids confirms previous observations in vitro (20, 23) and represents a novel observation in vivo.

[So while insulin increases transport of a few aminos (alanine & lysine), GH increases amino acid transport for leucine and phenylalanine. This would mean that GH would increase transport of the other aromatic amino acid tyrosine and the other branch-chain amino acids valine and isolecine]

Besides stimulating protein synthesis, growth hormone suppressed the rate of catabolism of the branched-chain amino acids leucine, isoleucine, and valine. This effect has been reported by several other authors using isotopic tracers of leucine at the whole body level (8, 12).

[So growth hormone unlike insulin suppresses the breakdown and loss of branch-chain amino acids & probably all amino acids. Thus GH provides more raw material for insulin-induced higher rate of protein synthesis.]

Glutamine and alanine constitute the major carriers of nitrogen among body tissues (2).In skeletal muscle, these amino acids are constantly being synthesized and released into the bloodstream (2). In severe trauma, alanine release from muscle is greatly accelerated, whereas glutamine release was found to be increased or unchanged (5). Our results indicate that rhGH administration selectively decreases the rates of synthesis and release of glutamine, whereas alanine synthesis did not change during the hormone administration.

[Growth hormone has a negative effect on glutamine synthesis.]
In our patients, whole body skeletal muscle released 19 g of glutamine per day into the bloodstream before rhGH administration. After rhGH administration, glutamine release from skeletal muscle decreased by 50%, whereas at the whole body level, glutamine clearance tended to decrease by 15%.

[So glutamine which is very important to the immune system & is urgently needed in times or severe trauma is not really made available. This in part may be the reason why death occurs in critically ill patients given GH.]

The obvious solution for this potential side effect of growth hormone treatment in critically ill patients is to simultaneously administer exogenous glutamine to offset the decreased availability of the endogenous amino acid.

[This also is a lesson for those seeking muscle anabolism while using GH. Less glutamine is synthesized and thus available in the presence of GH. Thus supplementation with glutamine should increase the potential for anabolism.]


---

Amino Acid Pool

From a dynamic point of view, such muscle hypertrophy results from changes in the rates of protein synthesis and/or breakdown. In addition, an acceleration of the rates of amino acid transport into muscle cells may contribute to muscle anabolism by increasing amino acid availability for protein synthesis. Studies suggest that muscle protein accretion occurs in the recovery phase after exercise rather than during the actual exercise period. The leucine tracer incorporation technique has shown that the rate of muscle protein synthesis in humans is increased after exercise (7) and remains elevated for > 24 h (7).

In these studies, muscle protein breakdown was not ddirectly measured. However, the increase in protein synthesis was so large that if it were not accompanied by a concomitant increment in protein breakdown, exercise training would result in a greater increase in muscle size than actually occurs.

7. Chesley, A., J. D. MacDougall, M. A. Tarnopolsky, S. A. Atkinson, and K. Smith. Changes in human muscle protein synthesis after resistance exercise. J. AppZ. Physiol. 73: 1383- 1388,1992.​

Exercise

We found that, after exercise, the rates of muscle protein turnover and amino acid transport were increased. Protein synthesis and breakdown increased simultaneously but to a different extent. Synthesis increased by - lOO%, whereas breakdown increased by only - 50%. Consequently, protein balance (synthesis minus breakdown) improved after exercise (becoming not significantly different from zero) but did not shift to a positive value. These results suggest that physical exercise can restrain net muscle protein catabolism but does not directly promote net protein deposition in the postabsorptive state. Thus exercise probably needs to interact with other factors, such as feeding, to promote muscle anabolism.

[Although this paragraph is not completely clear, having read the studies I can say that the take home message is that exercise reduces catabolism. Exercise increase both breakdown & synthesis of protein but that exercise alone will not tilt things toward anabolism. Amino acid availability is required.]

The notion that increased amino acid availability can directly regulate protein synthesis is further supported by the fact that the rate of synthesis was enhanced during amino acid infusion or in catabolic patients, in whom a large primary increase of breakdown occurs. In the present study therefore the acceleration of protein breakdown and amino acid transport may have contributed to the increase in protein synthesis. Because of the increase in amino acid transport, the changes in protein degradation have been more than offset by the increased rate of synthesis.

We found that, after exercise, the absolute rate of protein breakdown was accelerated. This catabolic response almost counteracted the increase in protein synthesis.

[So exercise + amino acids = anabolism]


Our study suggests that this mechanism may also be important for amino acid and protein metabolism. Thus physical exercise may not have a direct regulatory effect on the membrane transport systems, but its effect may be due to the increased amino acid delivery to muscle tissue secondary to the increased blood flow.

Anabolism vs Catabolism

The intracellular availability of amino acids may not be the sole acute regulator of muscle protein synthesis, inasmuch as hormones and other factors may have direct effects. Nonetheless it seems clear that the rates of breakdown and inward amino acid transport are important factors. The importance of variations in inward transport can be appreciated when the difference between the anabolic response to exercise is compared with the catabolic response to critical illness. In both circumstances, the rate of breakdown is increased, but in the case of critical illness, inward transport is relatively impaired, rather than stimulated. As a consequence, muscle synthesis is not stimulated to the same extent as breakdown, with net catabolism resulting. Thus the increase in inward transport after exercise appears to be an important response that enables synthesis to increase to a greater extent than breakdown.

Side Note (skin more important then muscle)

Thus the stability of muscle mass throughout the day is maintained by alternating phases of catabolism during fasting and anabolism after feeding. This process is necessary to supply liver and gut with amino acids for protein synthesis in the fasting state. Our data suggest that the same mechanism is not involved in the skin, because, after - 20 h of fasting, we did not observe any net loss of essential amino acids from this tissue. From these results, it appears that maintenance of skin mass is a high metabolic priority, and this may occur, at least in part, at the expense of muscle tissue.

---

Blood flow

Over the last decade, evidence has accumulated supporting the hypothesis that blood flow is a major regulator of glucose uptake in skeletal muscle (1).

1. Baron, A. D., H. Steinberg, G. Brechtel, and A. Johnson. Skeletal muscle blood flow independently modulates insulinmediated glucose uptake. Am. J. Physiol. 266 (Endocrinol. Metab. 29): E248-E253,1994.​

The results of our study suggest that variations in blood flow may also affect muscle protein metabolism by increasing transport of free amino acids into cells, which in turn stimulates protein synthesis. This notion is supported by the high correlation between blood flow and FSR.

In summary, the results of our study demonstrate that net protein synthesis during amino acid administration can be doubled by previous performance of heavy resistance exercise. Moreover, the data suggest a link between the stimulation of protein synthesis after exercise and an acceleration in amino acid transport. The greater rate of transport after exercise may be due to the increase in blood flow.

An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein , Gianni Biolo, Am. J. Physiol. 273 (Endocrinol. Metab. 36): El22-E129, 1997.​

[So Exercise + increased bloodflow + amino acids = increased amino acid transport. Of course this leads to the understanding that aminos need to be in the blood prior to the increased blood flow of exercise.]


----

IGF-1

The data available in humans indicate that IGF-I has a mechanism of action similar to insulin on protein metabolism (62-65) because IGF-I administration also reduces the rates of whole-body protein breakdown and synthesis. When compared on a molar basis, the action of IGF-I is ~ 14 times less potent than that of insulin (65),

IGF-I might affect protein metabolism only in selected tissues through a paracrine action on whether IGF-I, due to its longer half-life could influence whole-body protein metabolism when plasma GH concentrations decline; and the role played by IGF-I binding proteins in the modulation of the endocrine action of IGF-I on protein metabolism needs to be established.


62. Turkalj I. Keller U. Ninnis R, Vosmeer S, Stauffacher W. Effect of increasing doses of recombinant human insulin-like growth factor I on glucose, lipid and leucine metabolism in man. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1992;75:1186-91

63. Mauras . Horber FF, Haymond MW. Low dose recombinant human insulin-like growth factor-1 fails to affect protein anabolism but inhibits islet cell secretion in humans. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1992;75:1192-7

64. Elhay D. McAloon-Dyke M. Fukagawa NK, Sclater AL, Wong GA. Shannon RP. et al. Effects of recombinant human IGF-1 on glucose and leucine kinetics in men. Am J Physiol 1993:265: E831-8

65. Giordano M, Castellino P. Carrol CA, DeFronzo RA. Comparison of the effects of human recombinant insulin-like growth factor 1 and insulin on plasma amino acid concentrations and leucine kinetics in humans. Diabetologia 1995:38: 732-8​
---

IGF-1/IGF-1 Binding Protein 3 complex


The major beneficial effect of IGF-1/BP3 in this study appeared to be reduced muscle proteolysis. IGF-1/BP3 significantly reduced net protein degradation rates in muscles from HLS rats. Preservation of muscle weight and protein content paralleled this reduced muscle proteolysis. In a previous study with highly catabolic muscle from dystrophic hamsters, we reported a 27% decrease in muscle protein degradation rates with rhIGF-1 (29); here with IGF-1/BP3, we report a near 40% decrease. A key component of muscle proteolytic pathways, namely calpain-mediated myofibrillar degradation, was also reduced in rhIGF-1-treated dystrophic mice (30)

Effects of Insulin-Like Growth Factor-1/Binding Protein-3 Complex on Muscle Atrophy in Rats Martin M. Zdanowicz, Experimental Biology and Medicine 228:891-897 (2003)​

[So there is an action that GH alone nor insulin effects, namely the reduction in protein degradation/breakdown in muscle. Of course GH increases the amount of IGF-1/IGF-1 Binding Protein 3 complex.]

---

In humans, IGF-I administration promoted protein anabolism both by stimulating protein synthesis and by inhibiting protein degradation both in muscle and at the whole body level (10, 11).

10. Elahi D, McAloon-Dyke M, Fukagawa NK, Sclater AL, Wong GA, Shannon RP, Minaker KL, Miles JM, Rubenstein AH, Vandepol CJ, Guler H-P, Good WR, Seaman JJ, and Wolfe RR. Effects of recombinant human IGF-I on glucose and leucine kinetics in men. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 265: E831–E838, 1993.

11. Fryburg DA. Insulin-like growth factor I exerts growth hormone- and insulin-like actions on human muscle protein metabolism. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 267: E331–E336, 1994.​

[So IGF-1 administration both stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits protein degradation in muscle & the entire body. However the reduction in protein degradation in muscle is unique to this hormone as this is not a benefit of GH's sole actions, of insulin's actions or of androgen action.]

---
Androgens

Pharmacological doses of androgens increase lean body mass in normal men (77) and muscle sized in trained athletes (78). The mechanisms responsible for the anabolic effects of testosterone have been explained by Griggs et al. (79). In a group of healthy volunteers, a 12-week administration of a pharmacological dose of testosterone enanthate increased mixed muscle protein synthesis (muscle biopsy during the infusion of labeled leucine) by 27% did not significantly affect leucine estimates of the whole-body protein breakdown...

...androgens promote protein anabolism by sparing amino acids from oxidation and increasing their incorporation into proteins, especially muscle proteins.

Thus, part of the effects attributed to androgens, namely the suppression of leucine oxidation (51, 52) and the stimulation of whole-body (51-53) and muscle (57- 59) protein synthesis, might be mediated by GH.

[So androgens supress amino acid oxidation and increase protein synthesis ...either alone or as a synergistic or complementary action of GH.]

---

Thyroid hormones (catabolic NOT anabolic)

In contrast, both rates of whole-body protein breakdown and synthesis are increased by the administration of T3 and T4 to normal subjects (110). Under these circumstances net protein catabolism occurs because the stimulation of protein synthesis is overcome by a greater stimulation of amino acid oxidation (110).

110. Tauveron I, Charrier S, Champredon C, Bonnet Y, Berry C, Bayle G, et al. Response of leucine metabolism to hyperinsulinemia under amino acid replacement in experimental hyperthyroidism. Am J Physiol 1995;269:E499-507​

[Thyroid hormones are catabolic because they stimulate breakdown to a greater extent then synthesis.]

The data on the role played by normal thyroid hormone concentration in the physiological regulation of everyday protein metabolism in normal humans are very limited. In growing rats it has been suggested that thyroid hormones contribute to the increase in protein synthesis induced by meal absorption (113). This does not appear to be the case in humans, according to the evidence that meal-induced changes in protein kinetics occur in the absence of significant changes in the plasma concentrations of T3 and T4 (114).

113. Jepson MM, Bates PC, Millward DJ. The role of insulin and thyroid hormones in the regulation of msucle growth and protein turnover in response to dietary protein. Br J Nutr 1988;59:397-415

114. Pacy PJ, Price GM, Halliday D, Quevedo MR, Millward DJ. Nitrogen homeostasis in man: the diurnal responses of protein synthesis and degradation and amino acid oxidation to diets with increasing protein intakes. Clin Sci 1994:86:103-18​

[Thyroid hormones do not appear to contribute to protein synthesis following meals in humans. In rats yes... In other words these hormones in normal humans do not add to the protein synthesis that meals induce.]

Basal concentrations of thyroid hormones have differential effects on individual protein kinetics and they play a role in the physiological regulation of protein metabolism of selectively modulating the synthetic or the catabolic rates of target proteins.

[Base levels of thyroid hormones play a general role in modulating both catabolism and synthesis of proteins. Other then restroing abnormalities there doesn't appear to be predictable benefit to manipulating thyroid hormone levels if anabolism is the goal.]

---

Catabolism

Cortisol, Glucagon, Thyroid hormones

Thus, whole-body and muscle protein catabolism induced by triple hormonal infusions appear to be mediated by a similar mechanism. The hormones, through the stimulation of protein breakdown, increase the intracellular availability of amino acids; the net catabolic effect results from the fact that hormonal action promotes the oxidative disposal of these amino acids more than their utilization for the synthesis of new proteins.

[These hormones, especially if they are present together promote protein breakdown and rather then making the amino acid pool available for resynthesis, they increase loss by stimulating oxidation.]
 
Last edited:
Stop seeking out magic bullets and gurus. Damn!

I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll post on protein metabolism and then you can decide what you want to do ...based on what would be effective ...based on good solid information concerning how anabolism comes about.

No one is looking for "magic bullets" - I think we're all just interested in finding what is "optimal" vs "what works". If you didn't have that same passion for it, why would you even bother researching and developing the GHRH + GHRP protocol with proper dosages, timing and so on?

In this case it's a matter of a long-acting vs. intermediate insulin, and how it affects everything else.

There are apparent flaws in some of the logic applied to various protocols posted by the 'researcher' which makes me a bit sceptical, and I trust and value your opinon which is why I wanted to run it by you.

Thanks for the post and information.
 
DAT to add to this, it seems that research may have found that essential amino acids are very imporant to replenish after training. Consuming just the essential amino acids (EAA) may be enough to promote significant muscle protein synthesis. One study showed that net balance of protein was similar for mixed amino acids (combination of essential and non-essential aminos) and EAA; and thus, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise. From a practical standpoint, this would mean that whole protein foods (e.g. beef) would be inferior (if you did a pound for pound comparison) to consuming the essential amino acids.

The Essential Amino Acids
Histidine
Isoleucine
Leucine
Lysine
Methionine (and/or cysteine)
Phenylalanine (and/or tyrosine)
Threonine
Tryptophan
Valine

Tipton KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D, Jr., Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am J Physiol. Apr 1999;276(4 Pt 1):E628-634.

Other things that are very important to help with protein synthesis are:

1. The Restoration of Electrolytes and Water – you need to maintain a hydrated state to optimize protein synthesis.

2. The Rapid Replenishment of Skeletal Muscle Glycogen Stores – you need to replace muscle fuel. “early intake of an oral protein supplement after resistance training is important for the development of hypertrophy in skeletal muscle of elderly men in response to resistance training.”

Esmarck B, Andersen JL, Olsen S, Richter EA, Mizuno M, Kjaer M. Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans. J Physiol. Aug 15 2001;535(Pt 1):301-311.

As DAT stated, optimal protein synthesis will not be able to occur post-exercise if there is not a sufficient supply of energy (as in calories) or insufficient free amino acid pools.

EXCELLENT informations DAT! I think it is very important that this information is understood completely. This process is the BASE for all we do.
 
Last edited:
Blade_HST said:
...There are apparent flaws in some of the logic applied to various protocols posted by the 'researcher' which makes me a bit sceptical....

Yep...there sure are.

...thus my irritation upon reading your post. Lets leave it that please...

As for you... I know YOU through your posts and I think highly of you.

As for the insulin ...the term "mitogenic" was used in many of the studies as a bad thing. Look at your quote "strong tumourigenic action"... doesn't that scare you? It scares me.
 
Great post BT!

BigTex; said:
DAT to add to this, it seems that research may have found that essential amino acids are very important to replenish after training. Consuming just the essential amino acids (EAA) may be enough to promote significant muscle protein synthesis. One study showed that net balance of protein was similar for mixed amino acids (combination of essential and non-essential aminos) and EAA; and thus, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise.

Well that study * has a severe limitation.

Insulin has been demonstrated to increase muscle protein anabolism (1, 6, 16). However, in the present study there was no significant difference in insulin levels among any of the three treatments. Although we did not measure other hormones, Chandler et al. (11) did not find an increase in postexercise testosterone or growth hormone levels when subjects were given either a protein supplement or a placebo.​

Basically their study is confined to what happens in a natural state (i.e. w/o exogenously administered insulin, GH or testosterone).

Now what appears to have happened is that they tapped out the maximum rate of protein synthesis induced by both exercise & amino acids. In other words the natural state ...not the maximum rate of synthesis induced by exogenously administered hormones.

The alternative explanation is that there is a maximum rate of net synthesis attainable during hyperaminoacidemia after exercise. Thus, despite the higher arterial amino acid values with EAA (Table 2), the translational machinery in the cell is not capable of increasing protein synthesis past a maximal level. The essential amino acids available in MAA were sufficient to stimulate the protein synthetic mechanisms to the maximum level, and not all of the available amino acids were utilized for muscle protein synthesis.

This is supported by the fact that the ratio of the model-derived value of protein synthesis to the arterial concentration is higher with MAA than with EAA (0.81 ± 0.24 vs. 0.50 ± 0.08, respectively). Furthermore, the muscle intracellular pool of amino acids was expanded with EAA but not with MAA (Table 2), suggesting that whereas the amino acids were being transported into the cell, they were not being utilized for protein synthesis.​

* - Tipton KD,, Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids, Am J Physiol. Apr 1999;276(4 Pt 1):E628-634.

BigTex; said:
Other things that are very important to help with protein synthesis are:

1. The Restoration of Electrolytes and Water – you need to maintain a hydrated state to optimize protein synthesis.

Pre-workout glycerol is one way to do that. Couple that with pre-workout protein & the increase blood flow from the workout...

BigTex; said:
2. The Rapid Replenishment of Skeletal Muscle Glycogen Stores – you need to replace muscle fuel. “early intake of an oral protein supplement after resistance training is important for the development of hypertrophy in skeletal muscle of elderly men in response to resistance training.”

This is a good point and one way to address it is to begin replenishment while exercising. Post-exercise may be too late.

The body wants to maintain a certain amount of circulating glucose in plasma. For the average man this is 4 grams. This is more important then maintaining the two storehouses, liver & muscle.

The body draws on those two stores to keep blood levels constant. The following chart demonstrates the amounts that are taken from each storehouse during exercise. As you can see the first hour of exercise draws most of the glucose from muscle.

I love this illustration by-the-way.

glucose.jpg

A couple of further notes **:
  • Insulin increases the permeability of muscle to glucose.
  • The presence of insulin prevents liver release of glucose so obviously this needs to be ingested or stores from muscle will rapidly be drawn down.
** - Four grams of glucose David H. Wasserman, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 296:11-21, 2009
 
Last edited:
For a study (instead of the sound of Dat's voice ...he has a very pleasant voice by-the-way. :) ) see Post #612 - GHRPs & Dosing: 100mcg, 200mcg or more?

Now those dosing numbers don't have to be absolutes (as you point out... there is likely to be variability) but it gives you some idea about dosing and diminishing returns.

Dat
Whats the best storage temperatures for these peptides?and how long do they remain effective?
 
Thank for the opinions DAT! Those research studies were very interesting. I found some others that supports what you have included.

Kraemer, et.al. [1] found that ingestion of CHO and PRO two hours before, immediately following, and during three consecutive days of resistance-training increased blood glucose, insulin, growth hormone, and IGF-1 to a greater degree than a placebo. Others studies have reported that the provision of PRO or amino acids prior to and/or following exercise stimulates PRO synthesis [2,3,4-10].


1. Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, Bush JA, Putukian M, Sebastianelli WJ: Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation. J Appl Physiol 1998, 85(4):1544-1555.

2. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR: Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001, 281(2):E197-206.

3. Rasmussen BB, Tipton KD, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR: An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 2000, 88(2):386-392.

4. Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Aarsland AA, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR: Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2007, 292(1):E71-76.

5. Biolo G, Fleming RY, Maggi SP, Nguyen TT, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR: Inverse regulation of protein turnover and amino acid transport in skeletal muscle of hypercatabolic patients. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2002, 87(7):3378-3384.

6. Biolo G, Williams BD, Fleming RY, Wolfe RR: Insulin action on muscle protein kinetics and amino acid transport during recovery after resistance exercise. Diabetes 1999, 48(5):949-957.

7. Biolo G, Tipton KD, Klein S, Wolfe RR: An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein. Am J Physiol 1997, 273(1 Pt 1):E122-129.

8. Biolo G, Declan Fleming RY, Wolfe RR: Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle. J Clin Invest 1995, 95(2):811-819.

9. Biolo G, Maggi SP, Williams BD, Tipton KD, Wolfe RR: Increased rates of muscle protein turnover and amino acid transport after resistance exercise in humans. Am J Physiol 1995, 268(3 Pt 1):E514-520.

10. Biolo G, Wolfe RR: Insulin action on protein metabolism. Baillieres Clin Endocrinol Metab 1993, 7(4):989-1005.

However,, there is still considerable evidence to support recommendations that athletes should ingest CHO and PRO following exercise in order to optimize glycogen resynthesis, promote an anabolic hormonal environment, and increase PRO synthesis [1-5]. Further, CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin responses without significantly altering markers of anabolism, catabolism or immunity during the first two hours of recovery [1-5]. Granted all of these studies were done without the aid synthetic HGH, peptides or AAS.

1. Campbell B, Kreider RB, Ziegenfuss T, La Bounty P, Roberts M, Burke D, Landis J, Lopez H, Antonio J: International Society of Sports Nutrition Position Stand: Protein and Exercise. J Int Soc Sports Nutr 2007, 4(1):8.

2. Koopman R, Saris WH, Wagenmakers AJ, van Loon LJ: Nutritional interventions to promote post-exercise muscle protein synthesis. Sports Med 2007, 37(10):895-906.

3. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR: Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001, 281(2):E197-206. P

4. Tipton KD, Wolfe RR: Exercise, protein metabolism, and muscle growth. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2001, 11(1):109-132.

5. Conley MS, Stone MH: Carbohydrate ingestion/supplementation or resistance exercise and training. Sports Med 1996, 21(1):7-17.

Something else interesting I found is that diet may also influence CHO oxidation during exercise [1-4]. High CHO diets increase the rate of CHO oxidation, increase the rate of muscle glycogenolysis, and leg glucose uptake [3,5]. In contrast, low CHO diets reduce CHO oxidation and muscle glycogenolysis during exercise [1,3,6]. However, these diets surely could be mediated by the inclusion of synthetic HGH and Insulin.

1. Bergstrom, J., et.al. Diet, muscle glycogen and physical performance. Acta Physiol. Scand. 71:140-150; 1967.

2. Chrstensen E.H. et.al. Arbeitsfahigkeit and eranhrung. Scan. Arch. Physiol. 81:160-171; 1939.

3. Galbo, H., et.al. The effect of diffrent diets and of insulin on the hormonal responses to prolonged exercise. Acta. Physiol. Scand. 107:19-32; 1979.

4. Martin, B. et.al. Influence of diet on leg glucose uptake during heavy exercise. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 31:62-67; 1978.

5. Gollnick, P.D., et.al. Diet, exercise, and glycogen in human muscle fibers. J. Appl. Physiol. 33:421-425; 1972.

6. Jansson, E. et.al. Effect of diet on the utilization of blood-borne and intramuscular substrates during exercise in man. Acta Physiol. Scand. 115:19-30. 1982.
 
Saturation dose is referred to either as 1mcg/kg OR 100mcg.

Now let me introduce you to the metric system you silly-assed American. :)

100kg = 220 pounds

So 250 pounds = 113kgs ...so saturation dose for you is 113mcg

Did you know that you weigh 1/8th of a U.S. Ton?

By-the way in order to use 200mcg by dosing according to the formula 1mcg/kg, you would need to weigh 440 pounds!

So what have we established here?

That you are truly a silly-assed American. :D Not that there is anything wrong with it...

LOL your not american? I wondered why you were up odd hours of the night posting.
 
dat,
concerning glycogen replenishment, you said "one way to address it is to begin replenishment while exercising. Post-exercise may be too late."

The idea makes sense, but would be at odds with my present GHRP-6 protocol, ie, I take GHRP-6 immediately pwo, then wait 30 minutes to drink my shake.
The protein shake would not blunt the GHRP-6 effects?
 
LOL your not american? I wondered why you were up odd hours of the night posting.

he is an american, he's just up odd hours of the night posting. He's like the batman of the AAS/hormone world. Or the dracula.
 
dat,
concerning glycogen replenishment, you said "one way to address it is to begin replenishment while exercising. Post-exercise may be too late."

The idea makes sense, but would be at odds with my present GHRP-6 protocol, ie, I take GHRP-6 immediately pwo, then wait 30 minutes to drink my shake.
The protein shake would not blunt the GHRP-6 effects?

Lets see....

...if you take in protein and carbs but no fats in a pre-workout meal by the time you hit the gym a lot of protein will have been digested...

...now during the workout how much quick carbohydrates do you need? Probably not nearly as much as people who buy those tasty carb-load drinks ingest.

Even just 10 grams of glucose in a big jug of water will be helpful in reducing depletion from muscle.

By the time you drive home and take your GHRPs you will have few fatty acids floating around (because you haven't ingested them for several hours). Fats are the primary blunting force...

As for glucose in the bloodstream...well some of it was taken up and stored, used for fuel during the workout... unless you went crazy w/ carbs during the workout it shouldn't be a problem to take the GHRPs immediately post-workout.

BigTex brings up a good point and that is that timing of intake & maintaining certain levels is what is important. Yet the supplement companies want to sell people on quantity.

So 20-30 minutes later (at least wait for the "hunger effect" from GHRP-6 to occur & become stronger) take in you nutrition.

If you started your nutrition before the workout and carried it into the workout you may not need shakes w/ whey & high GI carbs. Whole foods such as oats & eggs/fish (faster digesting food proteins) might be sufficient.
 

Staff online

  • rAJJIN
    Moderator / FOUNDING Member

Forum statistics

Total page views
559,948,801
Threads
136,150
Messages
2,781,085
Members
160,453
Latest member
whodis?
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
your-raws
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
YMSApril210131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
ashp131
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top