Years of cycling…and not competing for that last 10 of them, I feel it’s time to turn the volume down and settle down. I still enjoy being the big guy, training like an animal, being ox strong…but there is no real REASON to continue on this roller coaster of risk. Yes, I know the risk of aas/gh are VERY exaggerated by the media and LE…and I know they should not be controlled substances (gh currently is not but is treated as such), but I understand they are (in part) due to the very FEW that see health problems with repeated ABUSE and for long periods of time. I think they should be kept out of kids’ hands and to an extent government regulated so we don’t get fake stuff but what we do to our bodies should be our choice. Without getting too deep into the political debates…having over half of the prisoners in America in for non-violent drug offenses is silly (not to mention the highest percentage of citizens locked up), costs these people a shot at a future, and tax payers an enormous amount of money. Not to mention what is spent fighting the war on drugs…which shouldn’t be fought in the first place. Relax the laws on drugs and spend money chasing killers and rapists and people that don’t belong in public.
But back to my point – the title of this is “getting more out of less”…and I say that as many of us are probably where I am. Shifting into TRT/HRT and want to get the most out of it…and stay as safe as we can health wise (and legally). So, how do we do that? How does it all come together?
Well…I have some theories, and NO they are not GROUND BREAKING or shocking news in any way. Just things I would like to discuss and hope to learn more…I have read several books but I know there is a WEALTH of knowledge here on PM. I have spent a few months lowering down to the minimums and seeing how things are tolerated and what I am left with physically and mentally. As we know, we feel INCREDIBLE on (for example) 600mg to 1g test, 4-8iu of gh, a few hundred mg of some other aas, and a handful of other ancillaries. But, what is NECESSARY to still have a good physique, feel good, have some libido, etc once we have done the above off and on for years, and THAT has become our definition of NORMAL? What do we do when lean 235 lbs in the mirror looks AVERAGE to us? We cannot run all these products forever and expect to be free of health issues…some can…many cannot. So that is where I am and think possibly many others are also. Before I get beat to a pulp, YES I realize this is a “hardcore bodybuilding” board and not life extension…but at some point even hardcore bodybuilders will be thinking the same as I am currently. I have spoken to a few old pros about this…and to feel NORMAL they still have to run pretty high doses…I don’t want to end up there. Heart issues and blood clot stories are becoming more and more frequent and that is not anything I want to have to sit here and post about. I have always been somewhat moderate …but even that can’t go on forever. So before I am forced to for health reasons…I decided to move to a healthier plan now.
Gear: So, what do we NEED? Of course a physician should be consulted and full blood work done, in no way do I intend my ramblings to replace physical findings from an exam/blood work. But - I don’t think many of us will be happy with 100mg of test a week. I feel like 250-300mg would be safe for the majority of us and some reasonable physicians will allow this. Be sure to also keep an eye on RBC/hemoglobin/hematocrit levels. But even this small dose can aromatize and then you have a new problem to deal with…estrogen. So, most physicians want to go with clomid or arimidex. I feel arimidex is too strong personally…and if I am to use it, it would be at about ¼ mg EOD. Or exemestane at 12.5mg for a little better cholesterol profile. But – then if estro is too low it messes up libido and gh profile…so at that point we would also need a couple iu of gh every morning. I have posted a few times asking around about masteron being used continuously or even switching between 100-200mg/wk masteron and 25-50mg/day proviron several times a year…say 3 months on one, swap to the other. I don’t know how safe this would be long term, but seems to be better than an AI all things considered. (I don’t have hair and neither gives me acne so the question then becomes if they will cause prostate issues long term since both are DHT based). Using masteron instead of an AI would still act as a weak anti-aromatase and minimize the negative effects of estro. Now – these are again, low doses aimed at the anti-estrogenic effects and also the SHBG effects to free up some test so even 250mg per week FEELS like 400mg…I would consider occasional low dose EQ, primo or anavar but if I can look/feel great on just basics (test/gh) then I don’t see a real need for the properties of these either.
Training: Of course…as anabolic levels drop, your workouts and diets must also adapt. I have noticed that it takes me noticeably longer to recover now that I am on about a third of the aas/gh I was previously…but still far superior to getting off altogether which after YEARS of this…isn’t really an option. I went from 3 days on, 1 off training and a 3 day split, to a different 3 day split (and soon 4 day) and 2 on, 1 off. Seems to be ok so far. I train with about 75-80% of the weights I previously did but with more sets/reps and more quality. I hardly use machines as ALL as I feel this is a better way to train your body to have useable/functional strength. I am ok shedding the bodybuilder look (some) for more fit and functional physique. Heaviest I have been is 250 lbs “offseason” and with 5% body fat last year I was about 214 lbs. At this point I would be happy with 215-220 lbs and maybe 8-9% fat. I feel that is attainable with what I am discussing here. Maybe I am a fool but I don’t think muscle that I have had for about 8 years will shed easily especially since it was not gained with excessively high dose cycles.
Diet wise I am leaning more towards a combination of Mountain Dog and Paleo. I certainly cannot get away with a cheat DAY anymore and have cut to 2 moderate cheat MEALS and mostly continuing my previous diet otherwise with a little less calories…meaning Mon-Fri low carb (no sugars and about 120 carbs a day), high protein and moderate fats with weekends similar only add in additional carbs (still mainly clean sources other than what may be in a cheat meal). I do a lot of whole eggs (free range preferred), grass fed steak, wild salmon, fruit, oats, brown rice, broccoli, natural peanut butter, mixed nuts, etc. So far so good…2 months in and down from lean 230 lbs to slightly softer 225 lbs but seem to be holding strength and size wise generally. I don’t think I am eating enough to maintain my muscle…but my hunger is not NEAR what it used to be. I think if anything, I would bump up the gh from 2iu in the morn and peptides at night…to 3iu in the morn and peptides twice a day. That should keep body fat down and increase the amount of muscle I can hold and should still keep me under the water retention and side effects from higher gh dose.
Supplements: I use a plethora of supplements. Of course the staples, a multivitamin, 4-6g fish oil a day, a quality blended protein, and a few times a year liver/organ cleanse. Also normally on thyroid support (if not on t4), mucuna pruriens EOD, and melatonin when needed for sleep. Which by the way – it seems like I sleep MORE now than before…not sure why. BCAA blends are sipped on most of the day. Preworkouts (ones without DMAA) are used before most workouts as my drive is a bit decreased lately. And joint support products. Nettle root could also be used in place of proviron somewhat…as I use Mucuna Pruriens in place of cabergoline. No, not nearly as strong…but on the lower doses we are talking about, should not need much. Again, getting more out of less. Currently considering a couple of additions: ALA and chromium as glucose disposal agents in an attempt to keep cholesterol profiles in check.
It’s almost depressing to set a goal for the first time, of NOT changing. Normally it’s more like spend half the year adding mass and the other half maintaining it while getting body fat as low as I can reasonably. But looking back I have added only about 2 lbs of LBM per year for about 10 years doing all this…not worth it. So, before I always had something inspiring and something to chase after. But for the first time…the goal is stay the same, be functionally strong, healthy, and look fit. But, like I said – tired of chasing side effects around and wondering why I feel a certain way. Indigestion and anger from tren? Low sex drive from deca? Pain in my joints from winny? Worried about high rbc from eq? Headaches and nose bleeds from anadrol? Back pain/pumps from dbol? Severe cramps from clen? It’s just not worth it to me anymore to go through that…yes, it USED to be. I wanted to be a big strong beast all winter and lean machine all summer…whatever it took. Things have changed…and I imagine this is on the minds of many of us that have been doing this for 10+ years…I have nearly obsessively pursued the physique I have always wanted…and now I want to pursue other things of interest (read more, build a muscle car, etc) and put “bodybuilding” on the backburner and be in a maintenance or holding pattern indefinitely. The amount of $$$ and time I have spent on this through the last 10-12 years is unreal and I don’t even want to add it up. Not to say it wasn’t worth it…I learned a LOT about myself, physiology, nutrition, biology and much more.
This isn’t to say, I will never have the desire to come back…but even then my intent will be getting the MOST out of the least and sticking with products with the highest benefit to side effect ratios (var, eq, primo for example). But – I hope there are others out there where I am now…and seeking similar information.
But back to my point – the title of this is “getting more out of less”…and I say that as many of us are probably where I am. Shifting into TRT/HRT and want to get the most out of it…and stay as safe as we can health wise (and legally). So, how do we do that? How does it all come together?
Well…I have some theories, and NO they are not GROUND BREAKING or shocking news in any way. Just things I would like to discuss and hope to learn more…I have read several books but I know there is a WEALTH of knowledge here on PM. I have spent a few months lowering down to the minimums and seeing how things are tolerated and what I am left with physically and mentally. As we know, we feel INCREDIBLE on (for example) 600mg to 1g test, 4-8iu of gh, a few hundred mg of some other aas, and a handful of other ancillaries. But, what is NECESSARY to still have a good physique, feel good, have some libido, etc once we have done the above off and on for years, and THAT has become our definition of NORMAL? What do we do when lean 235 lbs in the mirror looks AVERAGE to us? We cannot run all these products forever and expect to be free of health issues…some can…many cannot. So that is where I am and think possibly many others are also. Before I get beat to a pulp, YES I realize this is a “hardcore bodybuilding” board and not life extension…but at some point even hardcore bodybuilders will be thinking the same as I am currently. I have spoken to a few old pros about this…and to feel NORMAL they still have to run pretty high doses…I don’t want to end up there. Heart issues and blood clot stories are becoming more and more frequent and that is not anything I want to have to sit here and post about. I have always been somewhat moderate …but even that can’t go on forever. So before I am forced to for health reasons…I decided to move to a healthier plan now.
Gear: So, what do we NEED? Of course a physician should be consulted and full blood work done, in no way do I intend my ramblings to replace physical findings from an exam/blood work. But - I don’t think many of us will be happy with 100mg of test a week. I feel like 250-300mg would be safe for the majority of us and some reasonable physicians will allow this. Be sure to also keep an eye on RBC/hemoglobin/hematocrit levels. But even this small dose can aromatize and then you have a new problem to deal with…estrogen. So, most physicians want to go with clomid or arimidex. I feel arimidex is too strong personally…and if I am to use it, it would be at about ¼ mg EOD. Or exemestane at 12.5mg for a little better cholesterol profile. But – then if estro is too low it messes up libido and gh profile…so at that point we would also need a couple iu of gh every morning. I have posted a few times asking around about masteron being used continuously or even switching between 100-200mg/wk masteron and 25-50mg/day proviron several times a year…say 3 months on one, swap to the other. I don’t know how safe this would be long term, but seems to be better than an AI all things considered. (I don’t have hair and neither gives me acne so the question then becomes if they will cause prostate issues long term since both are DHT based). Using masteron instead of an AI would still act as a weak anti-aromatase and minimize the negative effects of estro. Now – these are again, low doses aimed at the anti-estrogenic effects and also the SHBG effects to free up some test so even 250mg per week FEELS like 400mg…I would consider occasional low dose EQ, primo or anavar but if I can look/feel great on just basics (test/gh) then I don’t see a real need for the properties of these either.
Training: Of course…as anabolic levels drop, your workouts and diets must also adapt. I have noticed that it takes me noticeably longer to recover now that I am on about a third of the aas/gh I was previously…but still far superior to getting off altogether which after YEARS of this…isn’t really an option. I went from 3 days on, 1 off training and a 3 day split, to a different 3 day split (and soon 4 day) and 2 on, 1 off. Seems to be ok so far. I train with about 75-80% of the weights I previously did but with more sets/reps and more quality. I hardly use machines as ALL as I feel this is a better way to train your body to have useable/functional strength. I am ok shedding the bodybuilder look (some) for more fit and functional physique. Heaviest I have been is 250 lbs “offseason” and with 5% body fat last year I was about 214 lbs. At this point I would be happy with 215-220 lbs and maybe 8-9% fat. I feel that is attainable with what I am discussing here. Maybe I am a fool but I don’t think muscle that I have had for about 8 years will shed easily especially since it was not gained with excessively high dose cycles.
Diet wise I am leaning more towards a combination of Mountain Dog and Paleo. I certainly cannot get away with a cheat DAY anymore and have cut to 2 moderate cheat MEALS and mostly continuing my previous diet otherwise with a little less calories…meaning Mon-Fri low carb (no sugars and about 120 carbs a day), high protein and moderate fats with weekends similar only add in additional carbs (still mainly clean sources other than what may be in a cheat meal). I do a lot of whole eggs (free range preferred), grass fed steak, wild salmon, fruit, oats, brown rice, broccoli, natural peanut butter, mixed nuts, etc. So far so good…2 months in and down from lean 230 lbs to slightly softer 225 lbs but seem to be holding strength and size wise generally. I don’t think I am eating enough to maintain my muscle…but my hunger is not NEAR what it used to be. I think if anything, I would bump up the gh from 2iu in the morn and peptides at night…to 3iu in the morn and peptides twice a day. That should keep body fat down and increase the amount of muscle I can hold and should still keep me under the water retention and side effects from higher gh dose.
Supplements: I use a plethora of supplements. Of course the staples, a multivitamin, 4-6g fish oil a day, a quality blended protein, and a few times a year liver/organ cleanse. Also normally on thyroid support (if not on t4), mucuna pruriens EOD, and melatonin when needed for sleep. Which by the way – it seems like I sleep MORE now than before…not sure why. BCAA blends are sipped on most of the day. Preworkouts (ones without DMAA) are used before most workouts as my drive is a bit decreased lately. And joint support products. Nettle root could also be used in place of proviron somewhat…as I use Mucuna Pruriens in place of cabergoline. No, not nearly as strong…but on the lower doses we are talking about, should not need much. Again, getting more out of less. Currently considering a couple of additions: ALA and chromium as glucose disposal agents in an attempt to keep cholesterol profiles in check.
It’s almost depressing to set a goal for the first time, of NOT changing. Normally it’s more like spend half the year adding mass and the other half maintaining it while getting body fat as low as I can reasonably. But looking back I have added only about 2 lbs of LBM per year for about 10 years doing all this…not worth it. So, before I always had something inspiring and something to chase after. But for the first time…the goal is stay the same, be functionally strong, healthy, and look fit. But, like I said – tired of chasing side effects around and wondering why I feel a certain way. Indigestion and anger from tren? Low sex drive from deca? Pain in my joints from winny? Worried about high rbc from eq? Headaches and nose bleeds from anadrol? Back pain/pumps from dbol? Severe cramps from clen? It’s just not worth it to me anymore to go through that…yes, it USED to be. I wanted to be a big strong beast all winter and lean machine all summer…whatever it took. Things have changed…and I imagine this is on the minds of many of us that have been doing this for 10+ years…I have nearly obsessively pursued the physique I have always wanted…and now I want to pursue other things of interest (read more, build a muscle car, etc) and put “bodybuilding” on the backburner and be in a maintenance or holding pattern indefinitely. The amount of $$$ and time I have spent on this through the last 10-12 years is unreal and I don’t even want to add it up. Not to say it wasn’t worth it…I learned a LOT about myself, physiology, nutrition, biology and much more.
This isn’t to say, I will never have the desire to come back…but even then my intent will be getting the MOST out of the least and sticking with products with the highest benefit to side effect ratios (var, eq, primo for example). But – I hope there are others out there where I am now…and seeking similar information.