Metformin year round?

[Beaver24]

I started metformin on a contest diet. I have kept it though lean bulk. My insulin sensitivity is amazing right now. I switched my cardio to before weights. On my last set I take 500 mg then go home and erta 50 pro 120 slow acting carbs. 1 cup oatmeal and 2 english muffins. Within 15 minutes I am asleep. I also take 500 upon waking. I am a big fan and have been making great gains at 400 carbs a day. 5/11" 202 shredded on stage last year currently 240 had a god amount of fat creep in right after contest as I went from 60 carbs to 250 overnight. I see no reason to ever stop

 

[morepain]

I swear I have heard Matt Porter mention it can have negative effects on the liver. I've never specifically looked it up...but also NEVER heard that anywhere else.

Here ya go Knight

Clarifying metformin's role and risks in liver dysfunction. - PubMed - NCBI


most concerns surround lactic acidosis and have been found to be non-factors in a healthy population. basically if you already have liver disease or kidney failure then no you don't want to take it, otherwise it has not been found to be harmful

 

[ironceltic12]

Are most of you guys using the normal version or the er? I have heard the normal is better but I only have the er version

 

[Mike Arnold]

I am not aware of any mechanisms by which metformin might negatively affecting muscle growth to any significant degree. I am not saying they don't exist--I am just not aware of them.

However, I do know that insulin resistance can have a profoundly negative impact on muscle growth, while also increasing the likelihood of fat gain.

Unfortunately, insulin resistance is all too common in off-season bodybuilders. Growth hormone, insulin, and the typical off-season diet all have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, especially when all 3 are risk factors are present at once. High doses of these drugs just make the problem worse.

The positive effects metformin can have on insulin sensitivity, and therefore growth, far outweigh any negative effects it may have on muscle growth. I know this by experience, as I have had numerous clients use metformin and other sensitizers/mimetics during a lean muscle gain phase with tremendous results. Not only was growth not compromised at all in comparison to those who didn't use the drug(s), but results were significantly improved--with greater gains in lean muscle mass and a reduce propensity for fat gain. In fact, the most dramatic results were witnessed in those individuals following the most extensive sensitizer/mimetic regimens.

Metformin is just one tool in the toolbox. Although I have spoken more on this site about sensitizers like metformin and berberine, it should be said that mimetics are also an invaluable tool, as they help increase insulin sensitivity through a different mechanism, ultimately allowing one to achieve a much greater degree of sensitivity compared to sensitizers alone.

I saw one member here comment that he didn't think sensitizers like Met will make much of a difference when used during super high-carb off-season diets. This is completely untrue. While Met alone will provide only moderate results, the right combination of sensitizers and mimetics are able to maintain an impressive degree of sensitivity even when the individual is following a high-carb diet and using substantial doses of GH and insulin.

There are also other steps one can take, in addition to sensitizers/mimetics, that can contribute to improved insulin sensitivity. The more real-world experience I gain with these drugs/supps, the more impressed I become. As with most things in bodybuilding, the best results will always be obtained when using a variety of compounds, rather than using very high doses of just 1-2 of them. Unfortunately, most bodybuilders won't want to invest the money necessary to utilize these kind of programs.


I will also say that these drugs can be very useful during fat loss or pre-contest diets, as anytime insulin sensitivity is improved, the easier fat loss becomes. Insulin works directly against fat loss by preventing fat from leaving the fat cell, while simultaneously diverting excess calories into the fat cell, where they are then stored as fat. The better one's insulin sensitivity, the less insulin the body will need to secrete in order to maintain a normal blood glucose level. This indirectly increases the body's chances of turning to lipolysis as a way of meeting its energy needs, while also making the fat cell more resistant to fat storage. The end result is increased fat loss and an improved ability to maintain lean muscle mass.

Decreased insulin production is the main reason why keto diets cause such rapid fat loss. In theory, a strong enough mimetic should enable one to receive all the growth and recovery benefits of a high-carb diet, while obtaining the fat loss benefits of a keto diet. Of course, this would require a mimetic with a neutral effect on the fat cell and with glucose shuttling abilities on par with insulin itself--something we haven't yet achieved, but the principle is valid none the less. Remember, mimetics "replace" insulin, as they act like insulin in the body, while sensitizers increase insulin efficiency. Ultimately, both drugs lead to a decrease in insulin production--one by way of replacement and the other through increased efficiency. Only by optimizing both of these processes can we maximize growth and fat loss at the same time. .

Sorry if I wasn't very clear in my explanation. I am tired and it is hard to concentrate right now.

 

[FranJ]

R-ALA/Chromium are sensitizers while Vanadyl acts like a mimetic, at least this is what I've always thought.

Could be good to add Vanadyl to Metformin so we have a mimetic/sensitizer combo? Too bad Vanadyl shouldn't be run for long term due to toxicity...

 

[mature muscle]

any of our sponsors carry it.

 

[charliex]

I am not aware of any mechanisms by which metformin might negatively affecting muscle growth to any significant degree. I am not saying they don't exist--I am just not aware of them.

However, I do know that insulin resistance can have a profoundly negative impact on muscle growth, while also increasing the likelihood of fat gain.

Unfortunately, insulin resistance is all too common in off-season bodybuilders. Growth hormone, insulin, and the typical off-season diet all have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, especially when all 3 are risk factors are present at once. High doses of these drugs just make the problem worse.

The positive effects metformin can have on insulin sensitivity, and therefore growth, far outweigh any negative effects it may have on muscle growth. I know this by experience, as I have had numerous clients use metformin and other sensitizers/mimetics during a lean muscle gain phase with tremendous results. Not only was growth not compromised at all in comparison to those who didn't use the drug(s), but results were significantly improved--with greater gains in lean muscle mass and a reduce propensity for fat gain. In fact, the most dramatic results were witnessed in those individuals following the most extensive sensitizer/mimetic regimens.

Metformin is just one tool in the toolbox. Although I have spoken more on this site about sensitizers like metformin and berberine, it should be said that mimetics are also an invaluable tool, as they help increase insulin sensitivity through a different mechanism, ultimately allowing one to achieve a much greater degree of sensitivity compared to sensitizers alone.

I saw one member here comment that he didn't think sensitizers like Met will make much of a difference when used during super high-carb off-season diets. This is completely untrue. While Met alone will provide only moderate results, the right combination of sensitizers and mimetics are able to maintain an impressive degree of sensitivity even when the individual is following a high-carb diet and using substantial doses of GH and insulin.

There are also other steps one can take, in addition to sensitizers/mimetics, that can contribute to improved insulin sensitivity. The more real-world experience I gain with these drugs/supps, the more impressed I become. As with most things in bodybuilding, the best results will always be obtained when using a variety of compounds, rather than using very high doses of just 1-2 of them. Unfortunately, most bodybuilders won't want to invest the money necessary to utilize these kind of programs.


I will also say that these drugs can be very useful during fat loss or pre-contest diets, as anytime insulin sensitivity is improved, the easier fat loss becomes. Insulin works directly against fat loss by preventing fat from leaving the fat cell, while simultaneously diverting excess calories into the fat cell, where they are then stored as fat. The better one's insulin sensitivity, the less insulin the body will need to secrete in order to maintain a normal blood glucose level. This indirectly increases the body's chances of turning to lipolysis as a way of meeting its energy needs, while also making the fat cell more resistant to fat storage. The end result is increased fat loss and an improved ability to maintain lean muscle mass.

Decreased insulin production is the main reason why keto diets cause such rapid fat loss. In theory, a strong enough mimetic should enable one to receive all the growth and recovery benefits of a high-carb diet, while obtaining the fat loss benefits of a keto diet. Of course, this would require a mimetic with a neutral effect on the fat cell and with glucose shuttling abilities on par with insulin itself--something we haven't yet achieved, but the principle is valid none the less. Remember, mimetics "replace" insulin, as they act like insulin in the body, while sensitizers increase insulin efficiency. Ultimately, both drugs lead to a decrease in insulin production--one by way of replacement and the other through increased efficiency. Only by optimizing both of these processes can we maximize growth and fat loss at the same time. .

Sorry if I wasn't very clear in my explanation. I am tired and it is hard to concentrate right now.

You seem to know what you are talking about Mike.
Having experienced it's effects on your clients, could you give me some example of the real effective dosages for it?

 

[LEX]

You seem to know what you are talking about Mike.
Having experienced it's effects on your clients, could you give me some example of the real effective dosages for it?

I use 1500 right now as I am dieting.

 

[Beaver24]

Dany Mike if that is what you post when tired, I am not sure I am smart enough for you when you not. Really hit the head there. Thanks for your input.

 

[Whey2Heavy]

I wouldn't be surprised if Metformin stocks sharply increase after Mike posted that Seriously though, great information as always Mike, thanks for sharing.

 

[nothuman]

What dose do you guys like to use normally and do you take with biggest carb meals?

 

[FranJ]

500mg 3x day is the dosage I find helps me lean out while not losing fullness.

 

[warlock]

I am not aware of any mechanisms by which metformin might negatively affecting muscle growth to any significant degree. I am not saying they don't exist--I am just not aware of them.

However, I do know that insulin resistance can have a profoundly negative impact on muscle growth, while also increasing the likelihood of fat gain.

Unfortunately, insulin resistance is all too common in off-season bodybuilders. Growth hormone, insulin, and the typical off-season diet all have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, especially when all 3 are risk factors are present at once. High doses of these drugs just make the problem worse.

The positive effects metformin can have on insulin sensitivity, and therefore growth, far outweigh any negative effects it may have on muscle growth. I know this by experience, as I have had numerous clients use metformin and other sensitizers/mimetics during a lean muscle gain phase with tremendous results. Not only was growth not compromised at all in comparison to those who didn't use the drug(s), but results were significantly improved--with greater gains in lean muscle mass and a reduce propensity for fat gain. In fact, the most dramatic results were witnessed in those individuals following the most extensive sensitizer/mimetic regimens.

Metformin is just one tool in the toolbox. Although I have spoken more on this site about sensitizers like metformin and berberine, it should be said that mimetics are also an invaluable tool, as they help increase insulin sensitivity through a different mechanism, ultimately allowing one to achieve a much greater degree of sensitivity compared to sensitizers alone.

I saw one member here comment that he didn't think sensitizers like Met will make much of a difference when used during super high-carb off-season diets. This is completely untrue. While Met alone will provide only moderate results, the right combination of sensitizers and mimetics are able to maintain an impressive degree of sensitivity even when the individual is following a high-carb diet and using substantial doses of GH and insulin.

There are also other steps one can take, in addition to sensitizers/mimetics, that can contribute to improved insulin sensitivity. The more real-world experience I gain with these drugs/supps, the more impressed I become. As with most things in bodybuilding, the best results will always be obtained when using a variety of compounds, rather than using very high doses of just 1-2 of them. Unfortunately, most bodybuilders won't want to invest the money necessary to utilize these kind of programs.


I will also say that these drugs can be very useful during fat loss or pre-contest diets, as anytime insulin sensitivity is improved, the easier fat loss becomes. Insulin works directly against fat loss by preventing fat from leaving the fat cell, while simultaneously diverting excess calories into the fat cell, where they are then stored as fat. The better one's insulin sensitivity, the less insulin the body will need to secrete in order to maintain a normal blood glucose level. This indirectly increases the body's chances of turning to lipolysis as a way of meeting its energy needs, while also making the fat cell more resistant to fat storage. The end result is increased fat loss and an improved ability to maintain lean muscle mass.

Decreased insulin production is the main reason why keto diets cause such rapid fat loss. In theory, a strong enough mimetic should enable one to receive all the growth and recovery benefits of a high-carb diet, while obtaining the fat loss benefits of a keto diet. Of course, this would require a mimetic with a neutral effect on the fat cell and with glucose shuttling abilities on par with insulin itself--something we haven't yet achieved, but the principle is valid none the less. Remember, mimetics "replace" insulin, as they act like insulin in the body, while sensitizers increase insulin efficiency. Ultimately, both drugs lead to a decrease in insulin production--one by way of replacement and the other through increased efficiency. Only by optimizing both of these processes can we maximize growth and fat loss at the same time. .

Sorry if I wasn't very clear in my explanation. I am tired and it is hard to concentrate right now.

Fantastic post Mike. As always your knowledge is highly appreciated by many of us.

I am not sure if you are willing to answer this question as you have paying clients, but if you use slin pre-workout, what would be the best times to use metformin?

Also, on a fat loss diet, would 1500mg a day be a good amount? Since carbs are low, do you need to make coincide the metformin dose with a carb meal or taking it with meal 1, meal 3 and meal 6 regardless of whether they contain carbs can be a good start?

Thank you Mike

 

[Cerberus777]

I am not aware of any mechanisms by which metformin might negatively affecting muscle growth to any significant degree. I am not saying they don't exist--I am just not aware of them.

However, I do know that insulin resistance can have a profoundly negative impact on muscle growth, while also increasing the likelihood of fat gain.

Unfortunately, insulin resistance is all too common in off-season bodybuilders. Growth hormone, insulin, and the typical off-season diet all have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity, especially when all 3 are risk factors are present at once. High doses of these drugs just make the problem worse.

The positive effects metformin can have on insulin sensitivity, and therefore growth, far outweigh any negative effects it may have on muscle growth. I know this by experience, as I have had numerous clients use metformin and other sensitizers/mimetics during a lean muscle gain phase with tremendous results. Not only was growth not compromised at all in comparison to those who didn't use the drug(s), but results were significantly improved--with greater gains in lean muscle mass and a reduce propensity for fat gain. In fact, the most dramatic results were witnessed in those individuals following the most extensive sensitizer/mimetic regimens.

Metformin is just one tool in the toolbox. Although I have spoken more on this site about sensitizers like metformin and berberine, it should be said that mimetics are also an invaluable tool, as they help increase insulin sensitivity through a different mechanism, ultimately allowing one to achieve a much greater degree of sensitivity compared to sensitizers alone.

I saw one member here comment that he didn't think sensitizers like Met will make much of a difference when used during super high-carb off-season diets. This is completely untrue. While Met alone will provide only moderate results, the right combination of sensitizers and mimetics are able to maintain an impressive degree of sensitivity even when the individual is following a high-carb diet and using substantial doses of GH and insulin.

There are also other steps one can take, in addition to sensitizers/mimetics, that can contribute to improved insulin sensitivity. The more real-world experience I gain with these drugs/supps, the more impressed I become. As with most things in bodybuilding, the best results will always be obtained when using a variety of compounds, rather than using very high doses of just 1-2 of them. Unfortunately, most bodybuilders won't want to invest the money necessary to utilize these kind of programs.


I will also say that these drugs can be very useful during fat loss or pre-contest diets, as anytime insulin sensitivity is improved, the easier fat loss becomes. Insulin works directly against fat loss by preventing fat from leaving the fat cell, while simultaneously diverting excess calories into the fat cell, where they are then stored as fat. The better one's insulin sensitivity, the less insulin the body will need to secrete in order to maintain a normal blood glucose level. This indirectly increases the body's chances of turning to lipolysis as a way of meeting its energy needs, while also making the fat cell more resistant to fat storage. The end result is increased fat loss and an improved ability to maintain lean muscle mass.

Decreased insulin production is the main reason why keto diets cause such rapid fat loss. In theory, a strong enough mimetic should enable one to receive all the growth and recovery benefits of a high-carb diet, while obtaining the fat loss benefits of a keto diet. Of course, this would require a mimetic with a neutral effect on the fat cell and with glucose shuttling abilities on par with insulin itself--something we haven't yet achieved, but the principle is valid none the less. Remember, mimetics "replace" insulin, as they act like insulin in the body, while sensitizers increase insulin efficiency. Ultimately, both drugs lead to a decrease in insulin production--one by way of replacement and the other through increased efficiency. Only by optimizing both of these processes can we maximize growth and fat loss at the same time. .

Sorry if I wasn't very clear in my explanation. I am tired and it is hard to concentrate right now.

Thank you for your input. Most likely the people who have used your assistance are on some form off AAS as well. Were any of these on low to moderate doses?

 

[G.I.Bro]

Fantastic post Mike. As always your knowledge is highly appreciated by many of us.

I am not sure if you are willing to answer this question as you have paying clients, but if you use slin pre-workout, what would be the best times to use metformin?

Also, on a fat loss diet, would 1500mg a day be a good amount? Since carbs are low, do you need to make coincide the metformin dose with a carb meal or taking it with meal 1, meal 3 and meal 6 regardless of whether they contain carbs can be a good start?

Thank you Mike

My thoughts came to this exact same question. I would assume you just use it without overlapping the active metformin window with the active intra shake / humalog window (assuming just one insulin use window per day). This way the insulin spike effectiveness isn't reduced. Then back on metformin after the slin clears. So like early AM metformin, active during most of daytime meals, humalog preworkout in evening after work, then a couple hours after that another dose of metformin before bed. This would just put less active metformin in your system at the same time as the insulin spike. But perhaps it not even a concern.

 

[nothuman]

I wonder what effect taking it DURING insulin being active would have. Might possibly allow the user to eat more carbs? And would that even benefit?

 

[Allday]

What dose do you guys like to use normally and do you take with biggest carb meals?

I personally do 500mg per 100 grams of carbs. If I'm doing a real heavy carb meal (ie all you can eat sushi) I'll do 1500mg.

 

[Knight9]

I personally do 500mg per 100 grams of carbs. If I'm doing a real heavy carb meal (ie all you can eat sushi) I'll do 1500mg.

With meals or prior?

 

[Allday]

With meals or prior?

Regardless of if I'm going low on the carbs or not, I'll usually keep carbs to a select couple meals a day and if I use metformin I'll have it with the meal. With the hcl, I'll take the dose about 5 minutes before the meal.

I've tried the xr version and having my total dose for a day in the morning but prefer the hcl version with heavier carb meals.

I've played around and documented my experiences with metformin for a while because I've been fascinated by it for some time. Mainly because I've always wondered if it does limit muscle gain by inhibiting igf-1 levels or if it was simply theory because of it's ability to limit insulin response from an influx of carbs.

I'm currently doing documenting my experience not using met in my pre/post workout meals (the time I was more of a natural insulin spike to not hinder igf-1) and taking 500mg with a third carb meal before bed.

From my experience with using met with all my carb meals in the past, I'm not noticing much of a difference than when using it with my pre/post meal.

Albeit far from scientific, but I'm leaning more towards believing that it doesn't lower igf-1 levels to any noticable degree.

It should be noted that I don't use GH or insulin. Know a few guys who run both and have different recommendations for effective utilization of metformin with a GH/insulin regimen that I'm interested in trying once I can justify the costs of GH (obviously won't try slin without gh present).

 

[charliex]

Since I am on a low/moderate carb bulk, I am only using 500mg on my last meal which has around 60g of complex carbs and taking 500mg with each free meal also.
I am thinking about upping the dosages to 500mg with another meal that has around 60g of carbs and keep the 500mg on last meal, so 1g a day.
I am also on ipa+cjc no dac and a prop/tren/mast cycle, so I don't think igf will be that much of a problem.
just don't know if upping the dosage is gonna benefit or not.