Metformin article. Seems it is terrible for muscle.

[Thebigone]

I notice only positive effects from it and I take it year round, and will continue to do so. The anti-aging piece effects from it are very well documented, and I personally do not believe it hampers muscle gains, even when at HRT doses (which I am).

JM

Do you take it with specific meals? How many times per day? Do u still use it when your using insulin? Thanks

 

[LEX]

This article is way out of my league as I don't understand most of it but it seems like not only does metformin lower igf levels but also suppresses muscle hyper trophy and protein syntheses. A buddy of mine said pairing berberine with metformin can negate this issues. He's a science guru so I'll just copy what he said.

The increase in AMPK will inherently suppress muscle hypertrophy in muscle cells (via decreased igf-1 signaling) . You can attenuate this by inducing PGC-1a (happens with intense workouts) but this also suppresses AMPK in these tissues (AMPK will still be active in the liver and fat cells, so those tissue effects would be preserved). Pairing Berberine/Metformin with intense exercise that contracts your muscle cells would be prudent and may reverse the muscle suppressing effects of Berberine/metformin.


And here is the article

Reproduction | Mobile

Hey didn't mean to be a dick to you, good article find and it got a good discussion going here.

 

[asteelz]

"""amoxifen is a nonsteroidal agent that binds to estrogen receptors (ER), inducing a conformational change in the receptor. This results in a blockage or change in the expression of estrogen dependent genes. The prolonged binding of tamoxifen to the nuclear chromatin of these results in reduced DNA polymerase activity, impaired thymidine utilization, blockade of estradiol uptake, and decreased estrogen response. It is likely that tamoxifen interacts with other coactivators or corepressors in the tissue and binds with different estrogen receptors, ER-alpha or ER-beta, producing both estrogenic and antiestrogenic effects."""""'

dynamics of nolvadex. out binds estrogen and reduces its potential for action. greater effects seen over time.

 

[Stewie]

"""amoxifen is a nonsteroidal agent that binds to estrogen receptors (ER), inducing a conformational change in the receptor. This results in a blockage or change in the expression of estrogen dependent genes. The prolonged binding of tamoxifen to the nuclear chromatin of these results in reduced DNA polymerase activity, impaired thymidine utilization, blockade of estradiol uptake, and decreased estrogen response. It is likely that tamoxifen interacts with other coactivators or corepressors in the tissue and binds with different estrogen receptors, ER-alpha or ER-beta, producing both estrogenic and antiestrogenic effects."""""'

dynamics of nolvadex. out binds estrogen and reduces its potential for action. greater effects seen over time.

Although noted as being a "selective" pro-drug. Tamoxifen exerts it's effects primarily through it's metabolites, rather than the parent drug itself. Several of these metabolites act as aromatase inhibitors. Such as tamoxifens' metabolite, norendoxifen.

 

[chainheart]

Do you take it with specific meals? How many times per day? Do u still use it when your using insulin? Thanks

JM can give you his exact information at his convienence.

meanwhile - metformin needs to build up in your system.

everyone’s different and it takes some experimenting to find what pattern (morning, mid-day, midnight) works best for you. once it builds up in your system it prevents the liver from dumping more glucose into the blood. the metformin works by bypassing CRTC2 and directly telling the liver cells to hold the sugar. it also makes your body more sensitive to the insulin that your pancreas naturally releases.

what is CRTC2:
**broken link removed**

it can start working within a week or two and i usually take it in the morning and before my last meal. as i stated on the first page GI upsets can deter some. eating a banana or oatmeal early in the day, again near dinner solved that, just one or the other did it for me. it takes a couple of hours to fully absorb and lasts around five hours. there is an extended release metformin but i have stuck with the tried and true regular formula (that is not intended as a review.)

i personally would not take metformin on days when using insulin before a workout.

Post not intended to diagnose or treat health issues

 

[GreenTLB6]

Since it needs to build up in your system and I have never went hypo while using met (using met and slin I have but that's another story) I don't think timing it perfectly is essential. Since it has a half life and we eat all day long I always have just made sure to take whatever dose im at each day. I do tend to take it with meals for convienance though.

 

[Marvel3203]

I take 1000 mg with cheat meals while on prep. If you are afraid to use dont but modest dosing wont affect muscle gain by that much and really if you are bulking I'd worry more about controlling carbs and cardio over using metaformin, I believe its best used when cutting.

 

[Thebigone]

I had no idea it needs to build up in your system. I usually take it once or twice a week at the most with a cheat meal so I guess that's not doing much.

 

[Stewie]

Considering the main topic has gone slightly astray, tho with good intentions.

Those that may be taking an SSRI with Nolvadex (Tamoxifen). There's complete inhibition of tamoxifen when used in conjunction with an SSRI.

**broken link removed**

Significance

Although no clinical outcomes data were provided for this study, the implications are obvious. Concomitant administration of SSRIs, especially paroxetine, effectively inhibits conversion of tamoxifen to the active metabolite. The patient may as well be taking a placebo.

Paroxetine is otherwise known as, Paxil.

 

[Marvel3203]

I had no idea it needs to build up in your system. I usually take it once or twice a week at the most with a cheat meal so I guess that's not doing much.

I still think there is some use to it. I believe Justin Harris (prep coach) advises used of metaformin with cheat meals. Even has a protocol on how to use it to see if you are insulin sensitive or not and thats with one dosage if I remember/understood it correctly. Hopefully someone else can chime in this is my first prep using it.

 

[warlock]

I still think there is some use to it. I believe Justin Harris (prep coach) advises used of metaformin with cheat meals. Even has a protocol on how to use it to see if you are insulin sensitive or not and thats with one dosage if I remember/understood it correctly. Hopefully someone else can chime in this is my first prep using it.

Can you share more info on that protocol?

 

[Marvel3203]

Can you share more info on that protocol?

I cant find my full notes on it but its actually a Jason Theobald protocol that Justin agrees with. Going off memory you run 1000 mg daily for 7 days and if you go hypo at any point before 7 days are up it’s a good indicator you aren’t Insulin insensitive, if you dont go hypo after those 7 days your sensitivity should be improved before prep.

 

[asteelz]

If you go hypo at any point taking metformin something is seriously wrong..

 

[para]

If you go hypo at any point taking metformin something is seriously wrong..

If I wanted to I could go a half a day without eating and never go hypo. That's on only 500mg SR in the morning.

 

[Thebigone]

If you go hypo at any point taking metformin something is seriously wrong..

If you take it with no carbs wouldn't it be normal to go hypo? Just like if you took a bunch of gda's without carbs.

 

[Marvel3203]

Jason also suggest using other GDA's before fasted cardio to get you into fat burning mode faster.

 

[Swifto]

Although noted as being a "selective" pro-drug. Tamoxifen exerts it's effects primarily through it's metabolites, rather than the parent drug itself. Several of these metabolites act as aromatase inhibitors. Such as tamoxifens' metabolite, norendoxifen.

Correct and very interesting.

Also CYP450, CYP2B6, 2C9, 2C19, 2D6, and 3A enzymes.

Other metabolites showing anti-aromatase activity: 4,4'-dihydroxy-tamoxifen > endoxifen > N-desmethyl-tamoxifen, N-desmethyl-4'-hydroxy-tamoxifen, tamoxifen-N-oxide, 4'-hydroxy-tamoxifen, N-desmethyl-droloxifene > 4-hydroxy-tamoxifen.

An analogue of norendoxifen - 4'-hydroxynorendoxifen - showed even greater affinity for aromatase, as shown in this study.

 

[GreenTLB6]

If you take it with no carbs wouldn't it be normal to go hypo? Just like if you took a bunch of gda's without carbs.

No because it sensitizes cells effects to insulin. It doesn't dispose of BG the same way insulin does.

GDA's seriously should not make you go hypo nor should metformin. The only sensible way I see that happening if you run super low blood sugar all the time.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

No because it sensitizes cells effects to insulin. It doesn't dispose of BG the same way insulin does.

GDA's seriously should not make you go hypo nor should metformin. The only sensible way I see that happening if you run super low blood sugar all the time.

Exactly. Metformin IS NOT insulin people.

I do full 20hr fasts taking 1000-1500mgs of Metformin + some ALA/Berberine during the day. No hypo feeling at all.

I test my BG in the morning...usually sitting in the 80's.

 

[LEX]

If you take it with no carbs wouldn't it be normal to go hypo? Just like if you took a bunch of gda's without carbs.

NO there is no mechanism for you to go hypo