RANT: Over-engineered equipment, the latest trend

[showstopper83]

In the Northern CA, '24 hour Fitness' has monopolized the gym scene (No Metroflex, Gold's or The Gym that SoCal has)


All of the the equipment in 24hr fitness is horrible. Any of the smaller gyms in Northern Cali just copy the same layout to a smaller scale, so same equipment.
In the 2000's these "Fitness Gyms" ditched all the older equipment actually designed to build muscle and adopted equipment originally designed for Physical Therapy. Thus the machines are specifically designed to target the muscle whilst keeping strain as low as possible with the goal of gaining functional Strength and nothing beyond that.Obv great for rehabbing and horrible for muscle gains.

There isn't a single establishment in the Bay Area that has even has gym in the title name. It's no coincidence that no leg day aka mens physique division is becoming prominent.
I believe it before the pandemic that 24hr Fitness declared bankruptcy, and my honest hope is that the whole chain goes under and allows some of the real gyms to return.

I go to Metroflex in the So Cal area, and while i love the atmosphere and people there... The actual gym equipment is garbage. Half the stuff is broken or awkward fitting and it's missing a lot of shit. Only 3 pieces of cardio equipment, 2 treadmills, 1 stairmaster. In a huge warehouse.

The 24 hour fitness Super Sports down here have waaaaay more and better equipment than the Metro i go to- but they are not open during the pandemic, so i go to metro

 

[showstopper83]

Understood. Please explain to me how the Hoist Rockit line (I included links) are functional and go a long ways toward developing core strength, athletic ability, and coordination? Thanks.

I don't know or care what that is. You brought up functional training, bonsu balls, etc, and I made a factual statement that those things improve balance/core strength, which is a big part of improving athleticism. Core strength/balance are directly correlate to agility and explosion.

Like i said, not EVERYONE trains to look good in a man-kini, and there are some who would argue that bodybuilders aren't true "athletes".

Make fun of athletes on bonsu balls all you want, those guys doing it at collegiate/high amateur or pro levels in their sport will probably dunk on you or knock you out going over the middle in a football game.

You're welcome.

 

[UsmcOldSchoolMuscle]

I go to Metroflex in the So Cal area, and while i love the atmosphere and people there... The actual gym equipment is garbage. Half the stuff is broken or awkward fitting and it's missing a lot of shit. Only 3 pieces of cardio equipment, 2 treadmills, 1 stairmaster. In a huge warehouse.

The 24 hour fitness Super Sports down here have waaaaay more and better equipment than the Metro i go to- but they are not open during the pandemic, so i go to metro

I am glad you are able to lift bro... that's for sure.

 

[xpoc]

I don't know or care what that is. You brought up functional training, bonsu balls, etc, and I made a factual statement that those things improve balance/core strength, which is a big part of improving athleticism. Core strength/balance are directly correlate to agility and explosion.

Like i said, not EVERYONE trains to look good in a man-kini, and there are some who would argue that bodybuilders aren't true "athletes".

Make fun of athletes on bonsu balls all you want, those guys doing it at collegiate/high amateur or pro levels in their sport will probably dunk on you or knock you out going over the middle in a football game.

You're welcome.

I was being specific as to how the engineers of the weight training machines are being influenced by "functional" training. So they are building machines that move for the sake of moving...like the links I included that I assume you did not look at before you posted. And considering this message board is dedicated to bodybuilding I am not concerned about an 18 year old kid dunking on me. Nor is he worried about me doubling his load in the hack squat. We are both chasing different rabbits. Capeesh.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

The more pulley points you add the more friction takes away from the negative, which equals less stimulus even if the machine does provide a good squeeze and pump.

That being said, i do really like the hoist chest fly as it does get the angle shift just right so their is less irritation on the shoulders. Also if you sit backwards on the lat pulldown (you bend your legs and tuck them under seat) you get something the simulates the stretch of a behind the neck pulldown without all the stress on your rotator cuffs at the bottom.

 

[Joshua82]

These machines just replicate green the body weight machines that I see outside of all the Veterans Association Hospitals.

I made due during lockdown with machines like these strapping resistance bands on them.

 

[USMuscle9403]

The more pulley points you add the more friction takes away from the negative, which equals less stimulus even if the machine does provide a good squeeze and pump.

That being said, i do really like the hoist chest fly as it does get the angle shift just right so their is less irritation on the shoulders. Also if you sit backwards on the lat pulldown (you bend your legs and tuck them under seat) you get something the simulates the stretch of a behind the neck pulldown without all the stress on your rotator cuffs at the bottom.

Ah yes, forgot about the chest fly. Hoist chest fly is actually pretty good.

 

[lookslikesausage]

The more pulley points you add the more friction takes away from the negative, which equals less stimulus even if the machine does provide a good squeeze and pump.

That being said, i do really like the hoist chest fly as it does get the angle shift just right so their is less irritation on the shoulders. Also if you sit backwards on the lat pulldown (you bend your legs and tuck them under seat) you get something the simulates the stretch of a behind the neck pulldown without all the stress on your rotator cuffs at the bottom.

This is what was so awesome about the Flex Leverage Lat Pulldown. The pivot point and resistance is behind the user. I wish a company would make a cable lat pulldown where the user sits with their back to the stack and still gets buckled in with the pad on top of their knees (what you just described; instead of sitting backwards the machine would be designed that way which is basically the opposite of every cable lat pulldown ever made). Been waiting forever for it. Hasn't caught on yet. Shouldn't be that hard.

Panatta Sport makes a plate loaded Lat Pulldown similar to the Flex Leverage where the load is behind the user. I have found Lat Pulls so much more effective this way and get a way better stretch too.

When we have to sit backwards on the traditional Lat Pulldown cable machines it's impossible to use heavy weight because their is nothing to anchor your knees down and keep you from being pulled up by the heavy weight and it sucks!

 

[UsmcOldSchoolMuscle]

Ah yes, forgot about the chest fly. Hoist chest fly is actually pretty good.

I always preferred the bent arm fly machines. Especially the old school ones with the round arm pads. Man I could really focus on an feel the inner pec with those. I fail to get that same feeling from any of the straight arm fly machines nor can I replicate it with dumbbells neither.

 

[Orville Shreddenbacher]

I don't know or care what that is. You brought up functional training, bonsu balls, etc, and I made a factual statement that those things improve balance/core strength, which is a big part of improving athleticism. Core strength/balance are directly correlate to agility and explosion.

Like i said, not EVERYONE trains to look good in a man-kini, and there are some who would argue that bodybuilders aren't true "athletes".

Make fun of athletes on bonsu balls all you want, those guys doing it at collegiate/high amateur or pro levels in their sport will probably dunk on you or knock you out going over the middle in a football game.

You're welcome.

"Factual " ? Standing on a bosu ball with a dumbbell in your hand doing a single leg deadlift or any other Instagram exercise will only make you great at ....... Single leg deads on a bosu ball . explosive power doesn't come from doing attention grabbing trendy nonsense . it comes from doing explosive movements . " functional " is the most overused word in training these days for the pyrpose of making people feel they are onto something new and different that the rest of the world isn't doing .

 

[b-boy]

I myself i love variety, I love hitting failure on different types of machines. I have used some of the hoist machines (there are NONE in my area) and I loved them. I like variety, im no longer 19 yrs old trying to squat 6 plates for reps or bench 4 plates for reps, that ship has long sailed, now I love squeezing and feeling the target muscle work and burn to exhaustion.

 

[lookslikesausage]

I always preferred the bent arm fly machines. Especially the old school ones with the round arm pads. Man I could really focus on an feel the inner pec with those. I fail to get that same feeling from any of the straight arm fly machines nor can I replicate it with dumbbells neither.

interesting. i always found those to be rough on my rotator cuffs. pretty much all of the old Nautilus pec-deck machines were designed this way except the one that had long cylindrical pads and you could do rear delts pushing your elbows into them.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

This is what was so awesome about the Flex Leverage Lat Pulldown. The pivot point and resistance is behind the user. I wish a company would make a cable lat pulldown where the user sits with their back to the stack and still gets buckled in with the pad on top of their knees (what you just described; instead of sitting backwards the machine would be designed that way which is basically the opposite of every cable lat pulldown ever made). Been waiting forever for it. Hasn't caught on yet. Shouldn't be that hard.

Panatta Sport makes a plate loaded Lat Pulldown similar to the Flex Leverage where the load is behind the user. I have found Lat Pulls so much more effective this way and get a way better stretch too.

When we have to sit backwards on the traditional Lat Pulldown cable machines it's impossible to use heavy weight because their is nothing to anchor your knees down and keep you from being pulled up by the heavy weight and it sucks!

The hammer strength high row and copies can be done one armed and sideways to get this same stretch at the top (use a supinated grip it grab the frame). I just skip the seat and drop into a sideways squat. Since it is one arm though you don't get that same contraction up the middle of your back though.

It is funny how many of these machines just work better backwards. Their shoulder press is another example, lol.

 

[lookslikesausage]

The hammer strength high row and copies can be done one armed and sideways to get this same stretch at the top (use a supinated grip it grab the frame). I just skip the seat and drop into a sideways squat. Since it is one arm though you don't get that same contraction up the middle of your back though.

It is funny how many of these machines just work better backwards. Their shoulder press is another example, lol.

Definitely with you on their shoulder press. i used to see a lot of people using it this way in the Gold's Gym i used to frequent growing up back in the day. i saw a guy once use a lying leg curl to do a spider curl.

 

[homonunculus]

I have been a gym rat since 1984 and I have seen a LOT of trends come and go. The latest trend is for the worse. All the hoopla over "functional" training has somehow convinced the equipment manufacturers that you must multi-task when exercising. There are endless youtube videos of guys balancing on Bosu balls while doing a kettlebell, pistol squat/overhead press combo. As a result we now have machines that force you do random movements in the name of being "functional." I just visited a gym where the guy giving me a tour proudly said they replaced much of the "dated" Hammer Strength line for the more functional and modern Hoist Rockit line. This is where you do a curl, crunch, couch recline on every rep. And somehow every machine forces you to move...for the sake of moving. WTH is going on here! I understand I am a dinosaur who focuses on barbells and dumbbells. But, I am also a DC disciple so I really do appreciate good machines that allow me to hit failure without needing someone to pull the bar off my chest. Hammer Strength machines are a great example of very effective machines. But, this latest movement toward over-engineered equipment is a troubling trend in gyms that are trying to appear "modern." Here are some examples of what I see at commercial gyms in my area, and HOIST is the biggest offender. I think they somehow inked a deal with some major chains for a reduced price if they purchase in bulk, because I see older (good) machines being replaced with this stuff on a regular basis:

1_detail.gif (400×400) (sport-tiedje.com)

1_detail.gif (400×400) (sport-tiedje.com)

RS-1103-600.gif (600×600) (mjd.fr)

I have used most if not all of the Hoist Rockit line at various gyms (including a local one I'm a member of). There's not "random movement" required to use the machines and I've never gotten the impression (nor could I see how one would if one's actually used the machines) that there is anything about them that's supposed to produce a "functional" training stimulus that would carry over to an athletic / everyday life endeavor.

They employ a leverage / pulley system that include body weight in the resistance, and there doesn't seem to be a frictional loss in doing this that I've noticed (no loss eccentric vs. concentric loading).

This strategy means lighter weight stacks (ease in moving machines around and setting up) and a built in relative loading component (larger folks are stronger). Also, in commercial gyms, I think there's probably a psychological component involved here b/c everyone looks the same on the surface (same body movement) going on, as most everyone can train with an unloaded stack (0 plates) and just body weight and comparing strength ("I use half the stack on that machine") doesn't jump to mind b/c the body's moving in space, too.

***Remember, Planet Fitness has made an entire franchise successful in making it OK to make fun of intimidating bodybuilders with their commercials and have Pizza Fridays and give out tootsie rolls at the front desk to create a psycho-social "norm" there that makes many people feel uncomfortable but in some ways is completely the opposite of what would lend itself to reaching fitness and body composition goals. Making people feel comfy is an important part of commercial gym success and that the Hoist line does this by making everyone kind of the same in that we're all moving body weight through space seems to have proven a smart move, as the machines have been around for a few years now.

---
On most of the Hoist machines, there's a very nice loading curve (matching strength curve) and plane of movement (e.g., converging chest press) for targeting the intended muscle(s) to be trained. The knee extension machine is a glaring outlier here, IMO - shitty, very short ROM and (IIRC) heavier near lockout (Knee extension max. voluntary torque is typically at <45˚ knee flexion or even closer to 90˚ knee flexion), so this is way off.

I like the Hoist machines and use them almost every time I'm at a gym that has them if traveling and like them for FT pump sets, especially, but there not meant to be functional - anyone saying that is probably spewing B.S. to sell a membership or hasn't actually tried them out, I'd guess, although I can see how someone who is a entirely new to fitness might make some nebulous connection between the whole body movement and "functionality" (e.g., b/c body weight movement like pushups and BW squats are considered more "functional" by many...).

-S

 

[Dugbet]

From an engineering standpoint, the less moving parts, the more inherently reliable the machine. Today's product engineers don't seem to have gotten the memo.

They know it, but it is more profitable to manufacture faulty things.

 

[showstopper83]

"Factual " ? Standing on a bosu ball with a dumbbell in your hand doing a single leg deadlift or any other Instagram exercise will only make you great at ....... Single leg deads on a bosu ball . explosive power doesn't come from doing attention grabbing trendy nonsense . it comes from doing explosive movements . " functional " is the most overused word in training these days for the pyrpose of making people feel they are onto something new and different that the rest of the world isn't doing .

Yes, FACTUAL. You clearly know zero about athletic training, things like bonsu balls and shit done on unstable surfaces work your stabilizer muscles, which improves balance, which greatly improves agility and change of direction.

No, a bonsu ball will not do much to add weight to your bench or build big muscles. That's not it's purpose.

I will repeat, there is a DIRECT correlation between stabilizer muscle strength/balance and athletes ability to change direction and explode.

You do realize Olympic gymnasts have some of the highest vertical leaps in the world, right? And that NFL/NBA skill players are not just doing heavy compound lifts with their trainers, right?

Training programs for actual ATHLETES trying to improve athleticism and training programs for bodybuilders are completely different.

If your goal is bigger muscles, then a bonsu ball will not help. To say its worthless because it does little to improve muscle size or weight room strength means you just lack a full scope of training, period, and what serves what purpose.

Being an athlete and being a bodybuilder are 2 different things.

 

[Orville Shreddenbacher]

I must know nothing . the only explanation there is for disagreeing with you possible I guess .The internet is a funny place . I was a pro athlete . I worked with some of the best coaches in the business . what does a gymnast or an nba player have to do with the knockout power you talked about earlier ? Im not a bodybuilder . I can pass for one but I can also do a set of 10 muscleups at 43 years old and 240 pounds . not too bad for a man that knows zero about athletic training.

 

[xpoc]

Yes, FACTUAL. You clearly know zero about athletic training, things like bonsu balls and shit done on unstable surfaces work your stabilizer muscles, which improves balance, which greatly improves agility and change of direction.

No, a bonsu ball will not do much to add weight to your bench or build big muscles. That's not it's purpose.

I will repeat, there is a DIRECT correlation between stabilizer muscle strength/balance and athletes ability to change direction and explode.

You do realize Olympic gymnasts have some of the highest vertical leaps in the world, right? And that NFL/NBA skill players are not just doing heavy compound lifts with their trainers, right?

Training programs for actual ATHLETES trying to improve athleticism and training programs for bodybuilders are completely different.

If your goal is bigger muscles, then a bonsu ball will not help. To say its worthless because it does little to improve muscle size or weight room strength means you just lack a full scope of training, period, and what serves what purpose.

Being an athlete and being a bodybuilder are 2 different things.

Just want to confirm you know this is a bodybuilding message board correct? I am not sure why you keep talking about dunking basketballs, vertical leaps or other "athletic" feats. This message board is supposed to be about things applicable toward bodybuilding. I am 52 years old...not too concerned about improving my ability to change direction. Simply want to look muscular and lean for as long as I can before father time comes knocking on my door.

 

[xpoc]

I have used most if not all of the Hoist Rockit line at various gyms (including a local one I'm a member of). There's not "random movement" required to use the machines and I've never gotten the impression (nor could I see how one would if one's actually used the machines) that there is anything about them that's supposed to produce a "functional" training stimulus that would carry over to an athletic / everyday life endeavor.

They employ a leverage / pulley system that include body weight in the resistance, and there doesn't seem to be a frictional loss in doing this that I've noticed (no loss eccentric vs. concentric loading).

This strategy means lighter weight stacks (ease in moving machines around and setting up) and a built in relative loading component (larger folks are stronger). Also, in commercial gyms, I think there's probably a psychological component involved here b/c everyone looks the same on the surface (same body movement) going on, as most everyone can train with an unloaded stack (0 plates) and just body weight and comparing strength ("I use half the stack on that machine") doesn't jump to mind b/c the body's moving in space, too.

***Remember, Planet Fitness has made an entire franchise successful in making it OK to make fun of intimidating bodybuilders with their commercials and have Pizza Fridays and give out tootsie rolls at the front desk to create a psycho-social "norm" there that makes many people feel uncomfortable but in some ways is completely the opposite of what would lend itself to reaching fitness and body composition goals. Making people feel comfy is an important part of commercial gym success and that the Hoist line does this by making everyone kind of the same in that we're all moving body weight through space seems to have proven a smart move, as the machines have been around for a few years now.

---
On most of the Hoist machines, there's a very nice loading curve (matching strength curve) and plane of movement (e.g., converging chest press) for targeting the intended muscle(s) to be trained. The knee extension machine is a glaring outlier here, IMO - shitty, very short ROM and (IIRC) heavier near lockout (Knee extension max. voluntary torque is typically at <45˚ knee flexion or even closer to 90˚ knee flexion), so this is way off.

I like the Hoist machines and use them almost every time I'm at a gym that has them if traveling and like them for FT pump sets, especially, but there not meant to be functional - anyone saying that is probably spewing B.S. to sell a membership or hasn't actually tried them out, I'd guess, although I can see how someone who is a entirely new to fitness might make some nebulous connection between the whole body movement and "functionality" (e.g., b/c body weight movement like pushups and BW squats are considered more "functional" by many...).

-S

I am not nearly as strong as most competitive bodybuilders and somehow I can do nearly the entire stack on most Hoist machines. Perhaps there is a different line that you are speaking of, but I cannot imagine a legit strong bodybuilder being able to use these. And yes, the "functional" comment was made by a sales guy. He also told me this machine was the most functional in the gym since it involved a rope which you use in "real life" rather than a D-Handle or barbell. I told him that I would agree with him if I worked as a crew member on a sailboat.