All things insulin- my take, opinion and experience.

[luki7788]

JP said point blank that insulin destroyed his stomach. But was it the insulin or the food? He said he was doing the 25+25 twice daily when he was with Milos but then felt like he was dying after awhile. Milos says insulin will not cause stomach problems "if you do it right' i e. "his way."

I feel like insulin causes a weird stomach bloat sometimes that doesn't appear to be food related.

Jp also used 6g of gear or 100mg of Superdrol a day or 200mg tren day - so I would treat what he says 100% as the truth, because everything there contributed to the problem he talks about, not insulin itself

 

[Mufasa123]

Great contribution to the community. Much appreciation and respect. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving as well!

 

[alfresco]

Great post bbextreme.

Huge education for me. Like your style. Good thread. Maybe a ‘sticky’ down the road?

You do it then talk about it. Much respect.

One last thing . . . how did you find the time to write all when you should have been stuffing your face at the Thanksgiving buffet?

 

[bbxtreme]

JP said point blank that insulin destroyed his stomach. But was it the insulin or the food? He said he was doing the 25+25 twice daily when he was with Milos but then felt like he was dying after awhile. Milos says insulin will not cause stomach problems "if you do it right' i e. "his way."

I feel like insulin causes a weird stomach bloat sometimes that doesn't appear to be food related.

I can relate 100% to this. It’s not the insulin, it’s the forced food and food selection. It was brutal.

That’s a lot of Gatorade, pancakes and dates- Milos food choices.

 

[Yousef12O2]

JP said point blank that insulin destroyed his stomach. But was it the insulin or the food? He said he was doing the 25+25 twice daily when he was with Milos but then felt like he was dying after awhile. Milos says insulin will not cause stomach problems "if you do it right' i e. "his way."

I feel like insulin causes a weird stomach bloat sometimes that doesn't appear to be food related.

I think he meant insulin resistance and now he uses as much insulin needed to control his blood sugar levels with the massive amounts of food he eats.

 

[bbxtreme]

Great post bbextreme.

Huge education for me. Like your style. Good thread. Maybe a ‘sticky’ down the road?

You do it then talk about it. Much respect.

One last thing . . . how did you find the time to write all when you should have been stuffing your face at the Thanksgiving buffet?

Thank you. Means a lot from you. I would be honored to have this as a sticky and help anyone I can. No BS, just experience and the truth is my style.

My Thanksgiving starts today with family so had all day yesterday to relax and put up a Christmas tree. So I made the most of it by writing this all out.

Now I get to go enjoy family time and some good food.

 

[bbxtreme]

The only logical conclusion that would be directly related to insulin would be visceral fat from insulin resistance

Very common. I had a visceral fat increase that was not fun to correct over the last few years hence I would never do it the same.

 

[Yousef12O2]

Jp also used 6g of gear or 100mg of Superdrol a day or 200mg tren day - so I would treat what he says 100% as the truth, because everything there contributed to the problem he talks about, not insulin itself

thats insane lol

 

[bbxtreme]

How much protein/aminos to reach absolute max "hyperaminoacidemia" that Milos talks about? I recently started taking aminos and peptides with each insulin shot. I don't spread the amino intake during workouts, do a shot instead, will stay elevated for hours, my mixes don't tastw so good. So I mixed up some JP aminos, creatine, feww other aminos like arginine, a megadose of HMB etc. 30 grams of aminos and 20 grams of peptopro - a bit of overshoot? Lol. Then I have the carbs only during workout. JP has an EAA that recommends a shot an hour into the workout, "like a quick meal."
Post workout I can't stomach much so I drink milk. Because "milk stimulates igf-1 through 5 different ways" including through the milk fat - can't find the paper now. LOL.

Since I train "strength orientated" I have experimented with Lantus 1 day a week - only I do it to be at maximum swolness and strength the NEXT day.

Minutia.

Anything more than 20 grams of EAA’s is pointless in my experience and IMO. On my high days I do 15g and baseline days I do 20g intra workout.

Milos had me do 10-20 intra and another 10-20g in the 90 minute post workout window in addition to the 50g post workout whey shake.

One thing I’ll note that I learned with Milos- he has protein fixed at 2g per pound of bodyweight on ALL days. That is so much food and protein to get down when you’re using 40-50 units of Humalog and high carbs. It contributed to the stomach bloat and don’t believe it’s necessary as carbs are protein sparing.

This is why now on high days I drop protein much lower- 200g portion vs 120g portion of meat for example.

 

[bbxtreme]

thats insane lol

That’s nothing, but @luki7788 is right hence I said in my OP that my blood work and issues were likely gear related and not from insulin. I was on on multiple orals during this period on top of 3g gear, high insulin, high protein all days and pushing 400-500g of carbs in a 2.5 hour window, plus the remaining meals.

Again not disclosing cycles out of respect, but it was a “live and learn” period for sure and have mad respect for Milos- he creates guys like Samson and mass monsters.

 

[bbxtreme]

A very good post and I would suggest that it be highlighted because there is a really huge amount of great information here and not myths that have been common for decades.

Actually I could add something but I don't see the point because everything has actually been said here

Great job @bbxtreme

Thanks man- means a lot from you with your experience.

One question as I have my opinion, but @Big Dave Smith made me think of it.

For those who want to do lantus- AM or PM?

Diabetics are taught (my wife) to use lantus PM and fast acting during the day to control the BG better. But I know many guys who use it AM to try and get the earlier peaks of it.

Knowing how the liver works with glucose emptying, I would probably maximize and do half PM and half AM. Example- 10units/10units.

But in the end it’s splitting hairs IMO.

What’s your take and experience?

 

[Bobik]

So what am I doing now?

This is where I’m not giving amounts, but you do the math based on your size and caloric intake. I also train mornings just to note.

Meal one- Novolin- R

Pre- workout Humalog

Post workout- Humalog

Is the first meal of the day also a pre-workout meal?

Do you give Novolin-R subq or IM with this meal?

thank you for a great post of personal experience. Great post

 

[luki7788]

Thanks man- means a lot from you with your experience.

One question as I have my opinion, but @Big Dave Smith made me think of it.

For those who want to do lantus- AM or PM?

Diabetics are taught (my wife) to use lantus PM and fast acting during the day to control the BG better. But I know many guys who use it AM to try and get the earlier peaks of it.

Knowing how the liver works with glucose emptying, I would probably maximize and do half PM and half AM. Example- 10units/10units.

But in the end it’s splitting hairs IMO.

What’s your take and experience?

In my opinion - if you use lantus as I recommend, i.e. 1 maximum 2 days a week on high carbohydrate days, always give the entire dose of AM on a given day. Because in this case we do not use lantus for glycemic control but to maximize anabolism and IGF, etc. so we want a window during the day in which we consume enormous amounts of carbohydrates

However, if I were using Lantus to help control glycemia, I would use a small dose at night

 

[Keefs]

My take and experience on insulin

What the hell do I know and why do I know it?

• I have been bodybuilding since I was 15 years old, a member here learning since 2007 and as my username implies am extreme and passionate about the sport.
• As a teenager I got 3 training/nutrition certifications to pay my way through college through ISSA.
• Have a bachelors in human nutrition, food sciences and exercise;
• Obtained my masters in integrative and complimentary medicine. Had no desire to be a doctor, am not one but just love the industry and work in it with my business.
• My wife has been a type 1 diabetic since 8 years old so insulin has been an obsessive topic of mine.
• I have paid and worked with, and still do the best coaches in the sport- Milos, Vu, and now AJ who is my guy for 2024 until I get my pro card. Out of respect for the coaches and their work I am not giving out their “secrets” or specifics (unless it’s public) so don’t ask- and guys who do… NOT cool. Go pay them thousands for their time and commit for 6-12 months if you want that.

Why am I writing this?

I’m not big on logs or starting threads on here as my post history will show since 2007. And I’m a pretty private person. This will be my most in depth post here to date. As many of the vets will likely agree there is so much BS on here lately. So many guys think there are secrets and that what gets posted is a lie. So here’s a real honest overview from me that is my experience and knowledge based on research, experience, wisdom and simply my opinion- so nobody has to agree with it or believe it.
I made myself and wife a promise when I got back into competing at 30 and to go for a pro card- I would do this as responsible as possible and find a way that didn’t destroy my health with all of my knowledge and experience. So I hope this helps others do the same. If it turns into a thread of BS and drama… I’m out and the mods can delete it.

So now that we got that out of the way, what is my take and experience on insulin?


I stepped away from competing in my 20’s to build my business and earn my degrees (no regrets), but still was in the gym daily. I dabbled in gear and some insulin.

My first experience- the standard bro set up:

10 units of insulin pre and post workout. 10:1 ratio of carbs to insulin. Humalog as that was all there was back then. Along with dextrose. Waxy Maize and Vitargo came later. Insulin was very hard to get your hands on (for me) during that time.

I did 8 weeks of this cycle and threw on about 20 pounds, but was constantly getting the ratio wrong and going hypo which led to me grabbing RTD’s of carbs from the local nutrition store and chugging them. Which then threw off my diet and rest of the day/training. I was young and very insulin sensitive so I vowed not to touch it. I was 22 at the time.


Fast forward- I worked with Milos in 2021 and immediately- “you will never win a pro card without insulin”. I wasn’t turning down the chance to work with the “mind.” And my childhood icon. So I committed all in.

We went straight into insulin on every workout day. This is public so I did insulin and carb intake based on the body part being trained. 6 days a week. The amount of insulin/carbs was done according to weakness. Lowest being 5 units pre and 10 units post. Highest being 20 units pre and 20 units post. Humalog or Fiasp and Gatorade or Karbolyn (I preferred Karbolyn).

Given we were trying to move up a weight class most of my days were high. So meal one, 15-20 units insulin at home 75g carbs from dates, then drank the difference during my workout which was a chore. 125g of karbolyn on leg day will make you puke.

Post workout 20 units of Humalog and no matter what 200g of simple carbs within 90 minutes of training. This was charles poliquin’s method evolved through Milos. So I did a shake with whey, kids cereal for 150g carbs, and then 45 minutes later did EAA’s with more Karbolyn 50g within that 90 minute window.

To note: No GDA’s, metformin, injectable carnitine or anything to regulate glucose as that was the job of the insulin. Simple as that. Then had the remaining meals which was a total of 7 on training days.
HGH was 10 units of Meditrope Black tops.

Almost 3 grams of gear (not disclosing my full cycle as it rotated every 5 weeks)

How did it go? Pro’s?

I have never gained so much size and fullness that quickly.


What did I learn? Con’s?

I almost ruined my midsection and lost my deep ab cuts and many lines. It created an illusion, but not worth it IMO. My joints ached and just did not feel good and blood work was not clean for my standards. The ladder was likely the gear and not just the insulin, but this is post is about insulin.

Next- our 6 months was up and he had just picked up Samson, Regan, and Logan so we agreed to part ways on good terms. Mad respect for Milos and what he does.

I worked with Andrew Vu shortly after and mad respect for him as he doesn’t believe in using insulin (did not at the time) as he believes it blurs the lines. And that was perfect for me as I didn’t agree with it either especially being married to a type 1 diabetic who takes lantus and novolog daily.

Next Solo Chapter:

After Vu I decided to do things my way for a bit and knew the power of insulin. I also knew the downside to that. In layman’s terms- insulin is yes, anabolic, but more importantly it’s a shuttling agent. Meaning, whatever you have or put in your body it’s going to rapidly transport into your cells.

I say it all the time on here- people use insulin to abuse food, not the other way around. Insulin cannot and will not make you fat- it’s what you put in your mouth and eat with it. If you eat shit and use insulin, you will shuttle shit and store shit. If you’re in a caloric surplus and take insulin you’d better make sure you’re only taking in clean calories and ideally keeping fats low and to trace fats that day. If you do eat fats it should be olive oil, mac oil or avacado and still lower amounts. If not and you’re in a surplus, you will store fat. Period. It’s simple CICO and math. This is where 9/10 guys get it wrong.

So I implemented John Meadow’s protocol (it aligned with current beliefs on insulin at the time) which is where I suggest all people start and will be all anyone really needs unless pushing for a pro card.


10:1 ratio, 4 units Humalog pre workout, 40g karbolyn intra. Do this for 4-5 weeks.


Weeks 6-12, 10:1 ratio, 10 units Humalog pre workout, 75-100g Karbolyn (based on insulin sensitivity).
Come off 4-8 weeks, use GDA’s and repeat.
Very effective and minimizes any fat gain as insulin and carbs are only used to maximize the workout and keep fats low and to trace amounts.


So what am I doing now?

This is where I’m not giving amounts, but you do the math based on your size and caloric intake. I also train mornings just to note.

Meal one- Novolin- R

Pre- workout Humalog

Post workout- Humalog

I push over 600-700g carbs on these days, lower protein and ONLY trace fats.
I ONLY use insulin on high days now which is 2 days a week- back and quad leg day. The first high day comes after an off and low day.

I use GDA’s daily- AM and post workout. Injectable l-carnitine 400mg pre-workout. And on baseline days still use 40g carbs intra workout with EAA’s and creatine.

Why did I do this?

Outside of because my coach said to. Dieting off the excess fat in the stubborn areas during my last prep was a huge eye opener as to what insulin and structuring your daily menu wrong (which was still clean) with it can do damage wise to your lines and gaining fat in the hard to peel areas. My goal is fat free muscle right now and this is the most optimal way to do that IMO.

For reference now- I’m doing 6 units HGH geno’s and under 2g of gear weekly. And my blood work post show and as of a week ago again has never been so perfect.

My take on lantus:

I personally will very likely never use Lantus and see no need for it unless you are pushing as a top pro competing at 240 plus pounds. Or if you’re trying to compensate for lack of genetics with insulin, food and gear. I say that as someone who doesn’t have the genetic frame of someone like Derek, Nick or Brandon as they are my same height roughly.

Lantus will make you insulin resistant and fast, possibly making you a type 3 diabetic and insulin dependent with prolonged usage. It’s long acting whereas Humalog, fiasp and novolog mirror that in which your pancreas produces so is more forgiving.

IF I was to use it, then it would be only once all else was maxed out, was a pro and would be max two days a week on weak body part days no more than 20-40 units in addition to humalog. And run no longer than needed to accomplish the goal. Monitor blood work, glucose levels and take metformin or GDA’s with injectable carnitine pre workout.

Not worth the risk IMO, but there is a place and understand why it’s used and up to 100 units by some- it will be effective, but likely come with a long term health cost. Only the individual can make that choice.

IMO and summary- Most guys are using way too much insulin and gear and not focusing on the diet. You want the secret? That’s it- fix your diet, eat more of the right stuff on the right days with the correct compounds and train your fucking ass off. That’s it.

I’ll let you guys take this thread wherever you want it to go.

FULL DISCLAIMER: Again, this is my opinion and experience. Not looking for a debate.

My hope is that the vets and coaches on here will chime in and share their experience and take as well.

Great post! I love all the personal experiences that you shared.

 

[bbxtreme]

Is the first meal of the day also a pre-workout meal?

Do you give Novolin-R subq or IM with this meal?

thank you for a great post of personal experience. Great post

Thank you and great question. Meal one is pre workout for me as I train in the mornings.

Novolin R- I have very low bodyfat so usually put it in my delt with a 30g. Simply because it’s easier. I do sub Q for Humalog and is my preference.

Carbs for me are non GMO sprouted organic oats, blue berries and Ezekial or sourdough bread in this meal.

 

[Hatchet]

What an awesome and informative post!! Thx for that...

 

[bigzzz]

Thanks for this, great read. Few questions come to mind:

'I almost ruined my midsection and lost my deep ab cuts and many lines. It created an illusion, but not worth it IMO.'

What do you mean with this, did you get a distended belly because of the insulin use or just more fluid retention?

Johns protocol, did you use insulin every workout day for 8-12 weeks(so like 4/5/6 times per week) or less?

 

[Ranchhand]

Great thread @bbxtreme, started watching this thread, you can tell, as this thread grows there will be a plethora of valuable info shared, thanks

 

[bigzzz]

Very common. I had a visceral fat increase that was not fun to correct over the last few years hence I would never do it the same.

Also, what did you do to fix this?

 

[bbxtreme]

Also, what did you do to fix this?

We dieted like hell for my last prep, moved to my meal structure now. T4 (I don’t use or recommend T3), and pharma clen. And 600mg injectable carnitine pre workout daily (very important).

In addition, 10k steps plus 45 min step mill cardio post workout during prep with vasoburn and a waist trimmer.

Abs 5 days a week with 3 rounds of vacuums at the end.

But most importantly, time of doing things structured the right way as it’s the little things that compound.

IMO most guys aren’t as conditioned as they think after they come down from excess insulin usage with too much food structured wrong. Once you think you’re lean- diet harder for another 4 weeks at that point.

Some guys use DNP and PSMF which is effective as well. I’m just not big on DNP.