All things insulin- my take, opinion and experience.

[bbxtreme]

I saw the part you mentioned if you did take lantus, it would be with fast acting slin and only on weak body part days. What are your thoughts on using fast acting slin only on weak body part days?

Say someone wants to bring up....chest for example. Train chest twice a week and use r only in those days, no others. Lower protein on these days to 1g per lb and then tons of clean carbs, trace fat. Then higher protein, moderate carbs, moderate fat on those other days.

Or be curious your thoughts on how to use slin in general only for a lagging part..

You’re spot on. What you outlined is exactly what I do now. I only use insulin on quad leg day and back. Back is my strongest bodypart but is my longest workout hence it’s my second high day.

But I would use Humalog if you can with your pre-meal to load the muscle, pre workout to fuel the muscle during the workout and post to flood for recovery.

Low protein, high carbs, and only trace fats. If you only have access to Novolin R, it will work too but sometimes has a second peak so you would want to ensure you have all meals/shakes prepped and consume them on time.

 

[Ranchhand]

Just knew this thread was going to turn out to be a plethora of in-depth valuable information. First and foremost, thanks @bbxtreme for initiating the thread and thanks to all the others that are contributing and sustaining the value of this thread moving forward. This thread is definitely worthy of becoming a sticky thread. Cheers, Ranchhand

​

 

[alfresco]

Hard to forget him. Runs Steel supplements now. Very smart guy. I ran into him in his prime as a pro at the Atlanta Airport. He was laser focused in prep and was nice, but could tell he did not want to talk.

Biggest lesson and hope is what all takes away from this thread- nail that balance and you will take off and “should” be relatively healthy in the process.

Jason was a member here for about a New York minute.

 

[TommyJ]

This was all very informative thank you for sharing your experience @bbxtreme

One thing I can really relate with is your point on cardio. My off season was going wonderful until i slowly started skipping cardio here and there and then some weeks completely. My fasted BG shot up very quickly and lost some sensitivity as a result. I will never make this mistake again.

 

[showstopper83]

You’re spot on. What you outlined is exactly what I do now. I only use insulin on quad leg day and back. Back is my strongest bodypart but is my longest workout hence it’s my second high day.

But I would use Humalog if you can with your pre-meal to load the muscle, pre workout to fuel the muscle during the workout and post to flood for recovery.

Low protein, high carbs, and only trace fats. If you only have access to Novolin R, it will work too but sometimes has a second peak so you would want to ensure you have all meals/shakes prepped and consume them on time.

Is there any benefit in running a low dose (5iu) of slin pre workout WITHOUT gh on workout days?

 

[mister k]

10:1 ratio, 4 units Humalog pre workout, 40g karbolyn intra. Do this for 4-5 weeks.


Weeks 6-12, 10:1 ratio, 10 units Humalog pre workout, 75-100g Karbolyn (based on insulin sensitivity).
Come off 4-8 weeks, use GDA’s and repeat.
Very effective and minimizes any fat gain as insulin and carbs are only used to maximize the workout and keep fats low and to trace amounts.

Can I ask what your gh protocol was during those two phases and after the 12 weeks?

So what am I doing now?

This is where I’m not giving amounts, but you do the math based on your size and caloric intake. I also train mornings just to note.

Meal one- Novolin- R

Pre- workout Humalog

Post workout- Humalog

I push over 600-700g carbs on these days, lower protein and ONLY trace fats.
I ONLY use insulin on high days now which is 2 days a week- back and quad leg day. The first high day comes after an off and low day.

I use GDA’s daily- AM and post workout. Injectable l-carnitine 400mg pre-workout. And on baseline days still use 40g carbs intra workout with EAA’s and creatine.

Pretty much the same question. Since you now only take insulin two days a week, how do you manage your gh? Do you take more on those two days?

Let's say someone is doing a 20 week blast and decides after 6 weeks to take a one month break from slin, what do you think he should do regarding the gh again? Lower it during that break or keep the same amount?

 

[KillerStack]

Jp also used 6g of gear or 100mg of Superdrol a day or 200mg tren day - so I would treat what he says 100% as the truth, because everything there contributed to the problem he talks about, not insulin itself

True, just quoting what he said and perhaps he just blurted it out in frustration. But sometimes guys in the sport, pros, do blame singular factors like the much maligned insulin. Like bbextreme said one of his trainers did not believe in insulin because it created "a film" you couldn't get rid off. Or he couldn't get rid of. If I look closely at Milos' athletes I see a general lack of final crispness. Not all, that Iranian who couldn't get to the US for a couple of years now, just nasty shreds and dryness.

Or the way he trained…

Absolutely. I've torn my stomach up myself training, now I have diastasis recti. I did deadlifts like JP, 300kg+ every week for 15 years straight. Not to mention the 10 years before when I was way weaker but did deads diligently (since 15).

Regarding visceral fat, we could settle the issue immeditely, via some body scans. Do big pros have lots of visceral fat? Maybe someone here has seen some scans of pros. luki was harsh against that one guy here who was mega-abusing insulin, 300 of just Lantus IIRC, and he had a huge gut that you would definitely think insulin had a lot to do with it. He did use very high steroid doses too, like 2 grams of tren.

But what I meant was a stomach expansion that comes on almost immediately after starting insulin. LOTS of guys here have mentioned it.

 

[luki7788]

True, just quoting what he said and perhaps he just blurted it out in frustration. But sometimes guys in the sport, pros, do blame singular factors like the much maligned insulin. Like bbextreme said one of his trainers did not believe in insulin because it created "a film" you couldn't get rid off. Or he couldn't get rid of. If I look closely at Milos' athletes I see a general lack of final crispness. Not all, that Iranian who couldn't get to the US for a couple of years now, just nasty shreds and dryness.



Absolutely. I've torn my stomach up myself training, now I have diastasis recti. I did deadlifts like JP, 300kg+ every week for 15 years straight. Not to mention the 10 years before when I was way weaker but did deads diligently (since 15).

Regarding visceral fat, we could settle the issue immeditely, via some body scans. Do big pros have lots of visceral fat? Maybe someone here has seen some scans of pros. luki was harsh against that one guy here who was mega-abusing insulin, 300 of just Lantus IIRC, and he had a huge gut that you would definitely think insulin had a lot to do with it. He did use very high steroid doses too, like 2 grams of tren.

But what I meant was a stomach expansion that comes on almost immediately after starting insulin. LOTS of guys here have mentioned it.

Milos focuses on fullness in 90% of cases and overdoes the carb before the competition, this time his guys come out max full but not that detailed

As for visceral fat, I am the best example that insulin does not cause its accumulation if you don't eat shit like trans fatty acids or tons of sugar - this year, as everyone knows, I had serious health problems and I did all possible tests, including MRI, which in my case showed nothing because I had virtually no visceral or subcutaneous fat, so the MRI image is very blurry and nothing can be seen. The radiologist who performed the examination was shocked because it was the first time he had seen someone with such a small amount of adipose tissue, and it is known that I have been using insulin for over 15 years.

 

[luki7788]

You’re spot on. What you outlined is exactly what I do now. I only use insulin on quad leg day and back. Back is my strongest bodypart but is my longest workout hence it’s my second high day.

But I would use Humalog if you can with your pre-meal to load the muscle, pre workout to fuel the muscle during the workout and post to flood for recovery.

Low protein, high carbs, and only trace fats. If you only have access to Novolin R, it will work too but sometimes has a second peak so you would want to ensure you have all meals/shakes prepped and consume them on time.

I only disagree with one thing - I wouldn't lower proteins on a high carbohydrate day if we use insulin especially Lantus - as we know insulin transports everything but mainly it helps us introduce more amino acids and sugar into muscle cells, so why if we take something that gives us the opportunity to overcompensate for amino acids? why we should limit them - it makes no sense

The situation is different when cutting - then lowering protein to improve digestion and being able to eat as many carbs as possible makes sense but not during the mass building period - of course this is only my opinion and no one has to agree with it

 

[KillerStack]

I can relate 100% to this. It’s not the insulin, it’s the forced food and food selection. It was brutal.

That’s a lot of Gatorade, pancakes and dates- Milos food choices.

That's a lot of plain sucrose and fructose. That can be a bad thing, the fructose goes to liver and can cause problems from what I've read, but I haven't really seen guidelines as to how much fructose is acceptable. BTW, HFCS the scientists say is essentially the same as sucrose, neither better or worse, but health nuts are deathly afraid of HFCS.
But to add to that sugar from fruits is not deleterious according to health experts, perhaps because you eat less of it? I think Hernon often talked about using fruit as a carb source, they are not "empty calories" like the powders.

But my question is: did Milos allow an athlete to substitute shakes for solid protein? Some athletes may simply not be able to eat all that solid food. Or were they simply "out"?

 

[luki7788]

That's a lot of plain sucrose and fructose. That can be a bad thing, the fructose goes to liver and can cause problems from what I've read, but I haven't really seen guidelines as to how much fructose is acceptable. BTW, HFCS the scientists say is essentially the same as sucrose, neither better or worse, but health nuts are deathly afraid of HFCS.
But to add to that sugar from fruits is not deleterious according to health experts, perhaps because you eat less of it? I think Hernon often talked about using fruit as a carb source, they are not "empty calories" like the powders.

But my question is: did Milos allow an athlete to substitute shakes for solid protein? Some athletes may simply not be able to eat all that solid food. Or were they simply "out"?

Milos often adds additional protein from isolate or Peptopro to each meal - he explains this by making it easier to digest huge amounts of protein.

As for fruits, I think that the main problem with using them is not the fruits themselves, but the fact that they ferment, and a huge number of bodybuilders have SIBO and they don't even know about it, and it is known that in the case of this disease, anything that ferments is prohibited.

 

[bigzzz]

You’re spot on. What you outlined is exactly what I do now. I only use insulin on quad leg day and back. Back is my strongest bodypart but is my longest workout hence it’s my second high day.

But I would use Humalog if you can with your pre-meal to load the muscle, pre workout to fuel the muscle during the workout and post to flood for recovery.

Low protein, high carbs, and only trace fats. If you only have access to Novolin R, it will work too but sometimes has a second peak so you would want to ensure you have all meals/shakes prepped and consume them on time.

Since you are only using it twice(?) per week now. Do you still plan on coming off insulin or are you just going to run it year round?

 

[bbxtreme]

That's a lot of plain sucrose and fructose. That can be a bad thing, the fructose goes to liver and can cause problems from what I've read, but I haven't really seen guidelines as to how much fructose is acceptable. BTW, HFCS the scientists say is essentially the same as sucrose, neither better or worse, but health nuts are deathly afraid of HFCS.
But to add to that sugar from fruits is not deleterious according to health experts, perhaps because you eat less of it? I think Hernon often talked about using fruit as a carb source, they are not "empty calories" like the powders.

But my question is: did Milos allow an athlete to substitute shakes for solid protein? Some athletes may simply not be able to eat all that solid food. Or were they simply "out"?

At the time he pushed for food only unless it was around workouts. Then we used whey isolate and post we used an additional 20g of EAA’s with more karbolyn or Gatorade.

Now to @luki7788 point- if I was his size or Samson’s there’s no way you’re not using whey or beef isolate with meals to reach your protein needs IMO.

 

[bbxtreme]

Since you are only using it twice(?) per week now. Do you still plan on coming off insulin or are you just going to run it year round?

I’ll follow whatever my coach suggest, but IMO with this approach it can be used year round.

 

[bbxtreme]

Milos often adds additional protein from isolate or Peptopro to each meal - he explains this by making it easier to digest huge amounts of protein.

As for fruits, I think that the main problem with using them is not the fruits themselves, but the fact that they ferment, and a huge number of bodybuilders have SIBO and they don't even know about it, and it is known that in the case of this disease, anything that ferments is prohibited.

My biggest regret is eating the dates (so many dates). I fully agree that fruit should be used as an addition to foundational carbs because of how the body digest and utilizes frusctose. This is my education kicking in. Lol but too much fructose can be a bad thing. And for years I didn’t touch it.

Now I use berries only as additions to set meals as additions for the micro nutrients and fiber, but would never use as my main source of carbs as you said or suggest that- especially dates. Lol

 

[bbxtreme]

I only disagree with one thing - I wouldn't lower proteins on a high carbohydrate day if we use insulin especially Lantus - as we know insulin transports everything but mainly it helps us introduce more amino acids and sugar into muscle cells, so why if we take something that gives us the opportunity to overcompensate for amino acids? why we should limit them - it makes no sense

The situation is different when cutting - then lowering protein to improve digestion and being able to eat as many carbs as possible makes sense but not during the mass building period - of course this is only my opinion and no one has to agree with it

I actually agree and when I did my own plans I utilized this. But now since it’s only two days a week and given the volume of carbs I used (which are protein sparing) I do use lower protein.

I don’t think I could get down 2g per pound of bodyweight on my high days if I wanted to. 600-1000g carbs for me is a lot.

My body has always responded well to high protein, as will most. So some of this is still “experimenting”’and learning for me.

But we may change it up as time goes. Just trusting the process.

 

[bbxtreme]

Can I ask what your gh protocol was during those two phases and after the 12 weeks?

Pretty much the same question. Since you now only take insulin two days a week, how do you manage your gh? Do you take more on those two days?

Let's say someone is doing a 20 week blast and decides after 6 weeks to take a one month break from slin, what do you think he should do regarding the gh again? Lower it during that break or keep the same amount?

I keep it super simple. I only use 6 units during off season or a progressive phase and 10 units during prep.

If I am cruising I use 4 units.

But I ONLY use pharma grade Geno’s. Not turning this into a HGH thread as that could be a whole other subject. But quality and pharma grade matter IMO.

I’ve done a vial a day of meditropes and in my experience I get better results with minimum fluid retention on half the amount with Geno’s.

Again just “my experience”.

 

[bbxtreme]

Is there any benefit in running a low dose (5iu) of slin pre workout WITHOUT gh on workout days?

If you have access to it and can afford it I would never personally do insulin without HGH. The progress will be night and day as @Muay Thai outlined very well.

With that said- I never used HGH in my 20’s with insulin and still made great gains. They just weren’t as “fat free” as I would like. HGH was impossible to find back then and thousands if you did so it wasn’t uncommon for guys to use just insulin which was already hard to find.

 

[luki7788]

At the time he pushed for food only unless it was around workouts. Then we used whey isolate and post we used an additional 20g of EAA’s with more karbolyn or Gatorade.

Now to @luki7788 point- if I was his size or Samson’s there’s no way you’re not using whey or beef isolate with meals to reach your protein needs IMO.

there was a time when I ate 425g of meat for a meal (weight before cooking, i.e. about 350g after) and I had no problem eating it, although I still had the gut like an 8-month-pregnant woman lol

 

[Yousef12O2]

At the time he pushed for food only unless it was around workouts. Then we used whey isolate and post we used an additional 20g of EAA’s with more karbolyn or Gatorade.

Now to @luki7788 point- if I was his size or Samson’s there’s no way you’re not using whey or beef isolate with meals to reach your protein needs IMO.

1.5 kg of chicken breast a day is 450g protein. Some fat people can eat like 3kg of meat in one meal lol Plus Jay Cutler said he at one point was drinking 140 egg whites a day that's like 500g protein just from egg whites not counting meat, fish, chicken etc....