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Competitive bodybuilding women...

pumpkinhead

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As the new year approaches for bulking/cutting.... I am getting my wife ready for the year. I do all her supplementation/diet.etc...

is their any advanced women bodybuilders, not figure, that I can pick their brain.. about some supplementation theory..

for reference....her current stats as of last week, 162lbs, 5'6...Bod Pod testing (including viceral fat) put her at about 15%...so maybe calipar testing would put her at 13% since viceral fat is not included.
last workout she got 135 for a easy 12 on bench, then 155 for 8..and so on etc... just to kinda give you a idea where she is. would preferably like to pick someones brain more advanced then her, as she would like to go forward.

thanks for any help....
 
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Dad

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You're not asking for cycle set-up ideas, right? Yuo know that's not allowed, right?
 

Dad

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Since forever. How long have you been here?
 

pumpkinhead

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Actually more interested in ideas of what supplements she can take, even herbal form to help combat estrogen during bulking and cutting....

i.e. figured high doses of yohimbine could help combat some of the beta receptors in hips/thighs during bulk...

maybe dandelion root or some other herbs could also controll bloat.... as what I have found for a female is the weight gain during a good bulk...is very hard on them... with the increase in carbs she tends to hold more water and plays tricks with her mind.

***I know your trying to keep everyone safe, but I never said anything about cycle. That is illegal where I live. I am more interested in herbal supplementation to control bloat and weight gain from estrogen during bulking season.
 
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pumpkinhead

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Actually came up with a pretty good Capsule combination I thought might work well for a bulking female to help controll fat gain/bloat...

any ideas to add, tell me what you think

this capsule would be taken 3x per day:

synephrine hcl.. 25mg
geranamine.......25mg
yohimbine hcl....7mg
guggul 10%......250mg
caffine............150mg
dhea...............10mg
7 keto dhea......20mg
dandelion.........80mg

*would not only work as a pre workout stim, but also help block the beta/alpha receptors a bit.
 

homonunculus

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A
for reference....her current stats as of last week, 162lbs, 5'6...Bod Pod testing (including viceral fat) put her at about 15%...so maybe calipar testing would put her at 13% since viceral fat is not included.
.
PH,

Just a quick FYI, standard (e.g., 7 site) caliper measurements provide values that predict body density from hydrostatic weighing (underwater) where the entire body's density (all tissue) is involved, so visceral fat is considered in caliper estimations of BF. (Basically: Skinfolds predict Body Density predicts Body Fat %

Bod Pod just uses a diff. methodology to measure body density (air displacement plethysmography) and from there an equation (Siri or Brozek usually - can't recall which Bod Pod uses) is used to estimate %BF.

It's possible that something about your wife's body comp is such that she carries an inordinate amount of visceral fat vs. subq fat, but calipers vs. Bod Pod measurements would not discriminate that per se.

I'd go with DEXA if you want to get a a very good and easy (but possibly pricey) measure of body fat, which you can prob. get done at a women's clinic where they measure bone density...

-Scott
 

pumpkinhead

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PH,

Just a quick FYI, standard (e.g., 7 site) caliper measurements provide values that predict body density from hydrostatic weighing (underwater) where the entire body's density (all tissue) is involved, so visceral fat is considered in caliper estimations of BF. (Basically: Skinfolds predict Body Density predicts Body Fat %

Bod Pod just uses a diff. methodology to measure body density (air displacement plethysmography) and from there an equation (Siri or Brozek usually - can't recall which Bod Pod uses) is used to estimate %BF.

It's possible that something about your wife's body comp is such that she carries an inordinate amount of visceral fat vs. subq fat, but calipers vs. Bod Pod measurements would not discriminate that per se.

I'd go with DEXA if you want to get a a very good and easy (but possibly pricey) measure of body fat, which you can prob. get done at a women's clinic where they measure bone density...

-Scott
This is one reason I really hate caliper testing...its a prediction based off a prediction of what another methodology would give you. It is highly inaccurate, even more so based on who is doing the test.

I had a figure chick with a str8 face actually tell me she was 10% bodyfat, because thats what her trainer told her after her caliper test. Not one ab showing, not one vein showing in the arm...and she honestly got upset at me when I told her that her test was BS. But I guess at the end of the day people hear what they wanna hear.

I am not sure where you heard calipers do measure visceral fat or even incorporate it..but just to prove a point, this is pulled directly off a medical website...

"...Developed in the 1970s as a simple and inexpensive way to analyze body fat, the skinfold test relies on an equation that factors the caliper measurements in millimeters with weight and age and produces an estimate of body fat percentage. Because the body fat caliper cannot measure visceral fat, or fat stored deep among the organs, it is not 100 percent accurate at gauging body composition. If it is used at regular intervals, however, such as every four to six weeks, it can measure changes in body fat over time with reasonable accuracy.

Human error can affect the results of a body fat caliper test. It is important that the same person perform the test each time. Another variable that can affect reliability of these measurements is whether the individual administering the test pinches the exact same sites with a consistent amount of pressure, as human error can throw off the results..."


**by no means trying to start a argument about it...just saying thats all. maybe someone else has calculations that predict visceral fat, but standard testing I have seen/done..does not.
 
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homonunculus

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This is one reason I really hate caliper testing...its a prediction based off a prediction of what another methodology would give you. It is highly inaccurate, even more so based on who is doing the test.
You can find the SEE's and SD's for these tests by examining the literature for each test. Those data are out there in all the validation studies that have been done... (ad nauseum) and have been around for decades (like most of the caliper equations and tables).

I had a figure chick with a str8 face actually tell me she was 10% bodyfat, because thats what her trainer told her after her caliper test. Not one ab showing, not one vein showing in the arm...and she honestly got upset at me when I told her that her test was BS. But I guess at the end of the day people hear what they wanna hear.
LOL. Yep.

I am not sure where you heard calipers do measure visceral fat or even incorporate it..but just to prove a point, this is pulled directly off a medical website...
Re-read what I wrote. ("Visceral fat is considered" because it is one component of the entire body's density.) Calipers gather data that are plugged into a regression equation that *predicts* results of hydrostatic (or a Body Pod's) measurement of body density (Db). The Db measurement is used most often with either a Siri or Brozek equation to get an estimate of body fat of the ENTIRE body, which includes subq and visceral adipose stores, as well as fats in the the membranes of cells, within body fluids, etc.

(To get at what you note about, as far as my sources, I've read the scientific literature (and have it in my office) on body comp. of reference man and studied the methodology in grad. school and taught the theory and application as a college professor...)

Here's a great resource, FYI: Human Body Composition-2nd Edition


"...Developed in the 1970s as a simple and inexpensive way to analyze body fat, the skinfold test relies on an equation that factors the caliper measurements in millimeters with weight and age and produces an estimate of body fat percentage. Because the body fat caliper cannot measure visceral fat, or fat stored deep among the organs, it is not 100 percent accurate at gauging body composition. If it is used at regular intervals, however, such as every four to six weeks, it can measure changes in body fat over time with reasonable accuracy.

Human error can affect the results of a body fat caliper test. It is important that the same person perform the test each time. Another variable that can affect reliability of these measurements is whether the individual administering the test pinches the exact same sites with a consistent amount of pressure, as human error can throw off the results..."[/QUOTE]

I would add the caliper estimation of body fat (total body fat) also do not "measure" subcutaneous fat, either. The technique is not meant to differentiate between adipose stores and subcutaneous stores, or to give an estimate of brain fat, bone marrow fat, etc. (So, I think we're on the same page...)

**by no means trying to start a argument about it...just saying thats all. maybe someone else has calculations that predict visceral fat, but standard testing I have seen/done..does not.
You can measure visceral fat indirectly with MRI and CAT. DEXA (e.g., trunkal fat) plus anthropometric measures will give you estimates based on what volume or single slice estimates from MRI / CAT will give for visceral fat. TBH, I'd have to dig into the literature (I can post a bunch of abstracts, but those are easy to find) to see how useful those predictions from a practical standpoint, as well as (the real biggie) how well they track with loss or gain of visceral fat (diet n' or getting older n' fatter).

-S
 

pumpkinhead

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Its nice to debate someone who can backup data they argue about...thank you for not being one of thoose guys who just says "I said so"...

thanks for the literature!
 

homonunculus

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Its nice to debate someone who can backup data they argue about...thank you for not being one of thoose guys who just says "I said so"...

thanks for the literature!
Hey Bud!

You're welcome! (It's also nice to have a calm, non-inflammatory conversation online, as well. Much appreciated. :) )

Sorry I didn't respond back to this thread - the new posts pile up fast here at PM and I've been out of town at the O.

-S
 

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