DEBATE: HCG & Leydig cell Decensitizing

[Conan21]

I have spoken with many doctors and it seems none of them agree on anything hormone related.

One of the big issues is: Does administering HCG for prolonged periods of time or administering HCG above a desired dosage decensitize LeyDig cells??!!

Two doctors who seem to be very knowledgeable (IMO) don't even agree.

Dr John Crisler (SWALE) states that 500iu should be the maxium dosage on a given day and that 1000 IU a week is more than enough. Adminstering dosages above 500 iu at a time can lead to Leydig cells being damaged.

I have also spoken with a doctor by the name of John Patino who runs RENAMI. It is a very popular online HRT clinic and a couple guys on this board are under his guidance. They are usually at the Arnold Classic, Olympia, etc. I bounced alot of questions off of him.

He recomends anywhere from 750-1,5000 IUs twice a week. He said that he has read about the LeyDig theory before but has been studying/monitoring this stuff for 10-15 years and has never seen an instance where HCG caused Leydigs cells to decensitize. Either from continuous use (HRT). or from dosages that he seems to promote.

Is there any research to support Swale's claims? I've usually used HCG 500 iu twice a week but have recently tried 1,000 twice a week and notice that it works much better for me at restoring testicular form and seems to make my libido much better. But I'm second guessing myself somewhat because everyone says something different.

Insight? thoughts? research?

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Here's an interesting abstract that may be worthwhile reading. The fact is that HCG does desensitize the Leydig Cells but as to how much, how often, I do not know. I suppose it depends like everything else on the individual.

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/109/5/1790

Personally, I would not use testosterone for any length of time without combining it with some LH mimicking device (like HCG). I suspect that the optimum dose of HCG would be the absolute very minimum required to maintain or bring back slowly, normal testicular size and weight. I see no reason to even risk going higher for any reason since really you're just seeking to make the testes healthy enough again to produce their own T.

The glands you need to be concerned with for HPTA recovery are really your hypothalamus and pituitary. These are the glands that signal your testes to produce testosterone. The only thing you want to do with your testes is bring them back to a size and weight and level of productivity that is necessary to facilitate the LH and FSH pulse when it finally begins again naturally.

Any more than the very minimum required for this purpose is unnecessary IMO. And for me, I've had success with 200iu EOD day for a few weeks! I've also done as high as 500iu with quicker results but I got some testicular soreness and tenderness. I've heard of people taking 10x that dose in one clip (5000iu)! I think that's overkill and could possibly cause permanent desensitization of the Leydig cells.

I guess my opinion in summation is simply the bare minimum and no more. Why even consider taking a risk with higher amounts? I'll let those doctors use their protocols on THEIR testicles... not mine!

 

[Emmortal]

Thanks to Visions for these studies. As you can see, it's completely unnecessary to go that high and administer that often with HCG. Swales protocol is pretty similar to Visions.


This study shows desensitization after 24 months of 1500ius EOD. Which is far too much for our purposes.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/co...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

This study will show that taking shots everyday doesn't stimulate the leydig cells to respond any better then taking one shot every 72hrs. They were using a high dosage, but lowering the dose would have the same effect.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/co...NDEX=70&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

This study shows that even while on 200mg of Test a week HCG can get the testes to work and produce Test. You will see they gave different amounts of HCG and 500iu's gave a 26% higher response then baseline. Meaning they are making 26% more test then normal even with the Testosterone shot. The abstract sums it up but you have to read carefully to understand everything. The shots were given eod but as you already know from the other study shots can be given every 72 hrs with the same results.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/co...NDEX=40&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

 

[phatkid77]

why did my post get deleted?? whatever

on 400iu HCG 2x week, my test levels did NOT move from where they were, estrogen did however

 

[OuchThatHurts]

why did my post get deleted?? whatever

on 400iu HCG 2x week, my test levels did NOT move from where they were, estrogen did however

Whatever? How about this being a debate about HCG and Leydig cell desensitization??? I deleted your posts because they concerned estrogen and that isn't what the debate is about. This last post of yours is just as worthless. Unless you know something or have an article about HCG or Leydig cell desensitization, can you please stay out of the debate?

Thank You.

 

[dragonfire101]

Here's an interesting abstract that may be worthwhile reading. The fact is that HCG does desensitize the Leydig Cells but as to how much, how often, I do not know. I suppose it depends like everything else on the individual.

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/109/5/1790

Personally, I would not use testosterone for any length of time without combining it with some LH mimicking device (like HCG). I suspect that the optimum dose of HCG would be the absolute very minimum required to maintain or bring back slowly, normal testicular size and weight. I see no reason to even risk going higher for any reason since really you're just seeking to make the testes healthy enough again to produce their own T.

The glands you need to be concerned with for HPTA recovery are really your hypothalamus and pituitary. These are the glands that signal your testes to produce testosterone. The only thing you want to do with your testes is bring them back to a size and weight and level of productivity that is necessary to facilitate the LH and FSH pulse when it finally begins again naturally.

Any more than the very minimum required for this purpose is unnecessary IMO. And for me, I've had success with 200iu EOD day for a few weeks! I've also done as high as 500iu with quicker results but I got some testicular soreness and tenderness. I've heard of people taking 10x that dose in one clip (5000iu)! I think that's overkill and could possibly cause permanent desensitization of the Leydig cells.

I guess my opinion in summation is simply the bare minimum and no more. Why even consider taking a risk with higher amounts? I'll let those doctors use their protocols on THEIR testicles... not mine!

I looked for studies and found a few that said HCG does not desensitize the Leydig Cells at high dosages for several months. Then others that say it does. They are all old though. Couldn't find anything current that was more definitive. I usually usee no more than 1,000iu at a time. I have used the 500iu 2 x week protocol most of the time and did well. At times I felt a little more was needed 1,000 iu 3 x week for 2 weeks for recovery. I feel for myself any more than this diminishing returns (desensitization) would result.

Also alot of the studies were done on rats, which in comparison to the human HPTA is probably affected considerably easier.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I looked for studies and found a few that said HCG does not desensitize the Leydig Cells at high dosages for several months. Then others that say it does. They are all old though. Couldn't find anything current that was more definitive. I usually usee no more than 1,000iu at a time. I have used the 500iu 2 x week protocol most of the time and did well. At times I felt a little more was needed 1,000 iu 3 x week for 2 weeks for recovery. I feel for myself any more than this diminishing returns (desensitization) would result.

Also alot of the studies were done on rats, which in comparison to the human HPTA is probably affected considerably easier.

That's pretty much what I've seen too. Even spent time at the college library. No dice. Many differing opinions and conclusions. That's why I feel it best to err on the side of caution. If both are effective and one is possibly less harmful (or at least less detrimental) then why not choose that one with the least change of causing desensitization?

BTW - nice reads Emmortal

 

[Busamuscle]

If you look in a PDR it says that it is given at a dose of 500-5000iu 3x/wk for a few weeks up to a few months. So I think 500iu two or three times a week would be fine. But thats what works for me.