Do you do overhead press exe of various kinds for delts or have u abandoned them ?

[gradeaphysique]

Barbell shoulder press and squats and bench all cause me severe pain despite anything I have tried. Clearly they are not safe for my body. Nobody could ever tell me otherwise. If you think absolutely everybody can do the compounds you're wrong. My orthopedic surgeon, physical therapist I was seeing, and myself ( RN soon switching to anesthesia) would disagree with you. Idc what any article says. If I'm getting no pain doing 125x15 incline dumbbell bench,but 45x5 barbell bench hurts, then I am dealt with the cards at hand. Compounds are not always ''safe'' nor ''safer'' than isolations. Every movement is a completely independent variable and it may or may not be damaging.

Meanwhile I have no problem pushing very heavy dumbbell rows or incline db press. Idk how you even brough the subject up in this thread bro.

Yah shoulder press hits some side delts too. Let's look at the delts of people who only do shoulder press versus pressing and laterals. See who comes out on top given the same kind of genetics,diet,and supplement regimen. I promise you the person doing raises will have better looking delts.

Also wth does bang for your buck mean? Why do we need to bang for our bucks? We're not stuck with picking one exercise. We have the freedom to bang whatever bucks we want.

Do a press then do side raises after.
Boom problem solved.
Or be like me and concrete...no pressing because chest is enough and 1 Lateral movement. Seems to be working great.

I agree with CG, I don't even see the point of this convo.

JUGGY ... try the seated laterals machine and lemme know if it helps.

I am in now way trying to denounce people who are injury prone when doing specific movements. What I said was for most people compounds can be done safely. What I was getting at was the fact that preaching that presses aren't neccesary and isolation movements are the way to go can become a slippery slope. What I meant by " bang for your buck" is that focusing the majority of your energy on compound movements ie the overhead press and focusing on progressive overload is going to benefit you greatly over time compared to doing various isolation exercises, sure you can also do isolation movements I do so myself and enjoy them time to time but people constantly over look the simplicity of gaining muscle progressive overload ( lifting heavier loads over time and using greater volume over time ) and we are provided great exercises such as the bench squat deadlift and overhead press that if progressed upon accompanied with isolation movements where needed ( rows, vertical pulling, curls etc) can and will build great and complete physiques. I don't see why guys get so on edge about what I'm saying, we're on a forum meant for discussion. This is why there is such a raft between "bros" and more science based guys when it comes to training and nutrition. I know here on pm people are constantly just piggy backing each other and that's great but a little difference in opinion wouldn't hurt here and there

 

[massnup]

I am in now way trying to denounce people who are injury prone when doing specific movements. What I said was for most people compounds can be done safely. What I was getting at was the fact that preaching that presses aren't neccesary and isolation movements are the way to go can become a slippery slope. What I meant by " bang for your buck" is that focusing the majority of your energy on compound movements ie the overhead press and focusing on progressive overload is going to benefit you greatly over time compared to doing various isolation exercises, sure you can also do isolation movements I do so myself and enjoy them time to time but people constantly over look the simplicity of gaining muscle progressive overload ( lifting heavier loads over time and using greater volume over time ) and we are provided great exercises such as the bench squat deadlift and overhead press that if progressed upon accompanied with isolation movements where needed ( rows, vertical pulling, curls etc) can and will build great and complete physiques. I don't see why guys get so on edge about what I'm saying, we're on a forum meant for discussion. This is why there is such a raft between "bros" and more science based guys when it comes to training and nutrition. I know here on pm people are constantly just piggy backing each other and that's great but a little difference in opinion wouldn't hurt here and there

I believe everything your sayng except the greater volume thing, are you saying if you got to the weights of doing 315 for 12 on the military and 70lb dumbbell laterals for 12 for 1 all out set that you would need more volume for size than just those 2 sets?

 

[gradeaphysique]

I believe everything your sayng except the greater volume thing, are you saying if you got to the weights of doing 315 for 12 on the military and 70lb dumbbell laterals for 12 for 1 all out set that you would need more volume for size than just those 2 sets?

What I'm saying is greater volume over time is what progressive overload is all about and progressive overload has shown time and time again to be neccesary to proprogress in size and strength. Keep in mind volume is not just a term for doing more sets, volume is weight x sets x reps. Over time your overall volume is going to need to increase for you to significantly progress whether that's through increasing the weight you lift, the reps you do, the sets you do or all 3. Sure 315 for 12 and etc sounds like an accolade but it's relative to the person, progress is always the goal. Now there's a variable that may skew things for a lot of guys on here which is AAS. Sure if you keep performing 315 for 12 for year but up your dosages you may be able to grow without progreasing too much

 

[NNI]

one arm overhead dumbbell press and tri ext.........Works great

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Might be the lone wolf here, but.... all I do is behind the neck press 5-7 sets (smith machine) and lateral raises 5-7 sets, both standing and cable.

Shoulders are my strong suit (if I were to have one)

Little to no shoulder pain.

Bench and inlcline press though kill my shoulders, go figure.

All I do for chest now is 6-8 sets of decline, 6-8 sets of dips and then maybe 3-4 sets of cable crossovers.

Chip.

 

[massnup]

Might be the lone wolf here, but.... all I do is behind the neck press 5-7 sets (smith machine) and lateral raises 5-7 sets, both standing and cable.

Shoulders are my strong suit (if I were to have one)

Little to no shoulder pain.

Bench and inlcline press though kill my shoulders, go figure.

All I do for chest now is 6-8 sets of decline, 6-8 sets of dips and then maybe 3-4 sets of cable crossovers.

Chip.

Why so many sets, are they pyramided with only the last few to failure?

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Why so many sets, are they pyramided with only the last few to failure?

yes, exactly.

I also FEEL the muscle working with these specific excercises, specifcally with decline and dips, that's all I do. (for now anyhow)

I believe Phil H and Emeric had recommnded decline and dips is all you need, again, this works for me, just like behind the neck presses do.

 

[CHAPS]

I'm not a fan of shoulder press machines, I've yet to find one that felt good, same with seated db presses never been a real fan. Standing barbell press on the other hand I love, it just feels great on the shoulders, it thickens you up in general I find, I believe Even Centopani mentioned the same thing in an MD video. They are humbling though you see a lot of guys lifting big weight with seated db press arcing their backs like crazy and turning it into a steep incline press, look at johnny Jackson and Branch Warren do their seated barbell presses. They look like bouncing incline presses, but hell it seems to work for them.

 

[CHAPS]

T NATION | Inside the Muscles: Best Shoulders and Trap Exercises

 

[TrinityD]

I'm not a fan of shoulder press machines, I've yet to find one that felt good, same with seated db presses never been a real fan. Standing barbell press on the other hand I love, it just feels great on the shoulders, it thickens you up in general I find, I believe Even Centopani mentioned the same thing in an MD video. They are humbling though you see a lot of guys lifting big weight with seated db press arcing their backs like crazy and turning it into a steep incline press, look at johnny Jackson and Branch Warren do their seated barbell presses. They look like bouncing incline presses, but hell it seems to work for them.

Standing shoulder press isn't really a shoulder exercise.
It slams everything and your deltoids are never the first to give out.
Not ideal if you are a physique guy, powerlifter(the best benchers always do seated), nor bodybuilder.

Steep incline is much more natural on the shoulders and will wreck your delts. You don't need 90*.

 

[D6A6N6I6E6L6]

The only press I do for delts is behind the neck press. I haven't done any sort of front press for over a year, and I think it's a useless exercise for bodybuilding (may help with strength, I wouldn't know). I find BTN gives my delts a rounder look and makes all 3 heads balanced. It also hits the upper traps and the long head of the tricep pretty hard, which a lot of people don't realize.

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Standing shoulder press isn't really a shoulder exercise.
It slams everything and your deltoids are never the first to give out.
Not ideal if you are a physique guy, powerlifter(the best benchers always do seated), nor bodybuilder.

Steep incline is much more natural on the shoulders and will wreck your delts. You don't need 90*.

Right. Agreed.

 

[Whey2Heavy]

Standing shoulder press isn't really a shoulder exercise.
It slams everything and your deltoids are never the first to give out.
Not ideal if you are a physique guy, powerlifter(the best benchers always do seated), nor bodybuilder.

Steep incline is much more natural on the shoulders and will wreck your delts. You don't need 90*.

I agree with this almost entirely. I still do standing overhead barbell press simply because it is my favorite lift though. Hell, when I first began training I only did two exercises every day, deadlifts and overhead press.

 

[TrinityD]

Right on brother.
keep doing it then.
it does look awesome and fun if you aren't injury prone.

Enjoy ... the iron game is about loving what you do!!!!

 

[Phidias]

R
Enjoy ... the iron game is about loving what you do!!!

And finding/doing what works for YOU. Absolutely!

 

[discohornet]

As one poster said, this really varies according to a person's body structure. Some of us have different shaped collarbones and shoulder girdles. Some of us also have scar tissue from injuries, postural disturbances from being overweight as kids or sitting at computers all day, and some of us have impingement issues already wearing at our rotator cuff.

Behind the neck anything always makes me cringe just because the cervical spine is almost always compressed funky when doing it, not just because of the impingement of the cuff. But I can't sit here and say anyone is wrong or right.

What I can say is that just because you do something a certain way and haven't had an injury yet is not a good indicator of whether or not an exercise is safe for anyone else OR you for that matter. It takes time to erode away at tendons and ligaments. Some of us wake up decades later and wish we never did something a certain way.

So yeah, I'm discussing this more from an injury prevention standpoint rather than a proficiency standpoint.

No matter how you do your shoulders, it would make a huge difference to work with a trainer who understands scapular positioning and have them work with you when you train.

I am as guilty of it as anyone. It is soooooo easy for the scapula to protract or come right out of its natural position during certain parts of any raise or press. When you do this, you risk injury.

I think this is one of the main reasons people find flat bench so unhealthy. It's damn near impossible for people's anterior dominant muscles to be reigned in by their posterior stabilizers during the pressing movement.

If you're wanting maximum size etc, then listen to everyone else, because I don't have anything to share.

If you want to be able to throw a ball when you're 65, without wincing in pain, spend as much time as you can, and exercise as much humility as you can, retraining how you move weights with your shoulders retracted. Spend as much time as you can correcting your posture when sitting at a desk, or driving a car. Take time to learn how the body should be aligned. Get STRAIGHT before you work on getting STRONG. You'll be much happier in the long run.

And for many of us, there is most likely a lot of scar tissue that is built up over the years from misuse or from injecting AAS into our delts. Make sure you are doing corrective exercises and breaking down that tissue as much as possible so that you can retain natural movement. An overhead press with adhesions in your delts will cause some serious disturbances in movement patterns.

SUCK UP YOUR CROSSFIT HATE FOR A SEC > This could save your shoulder's lives...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzozw2Aso3M"]Scapular Mobility | Feat. Kelly Starrett | MobilityWOD - YouTube[/ame]

Kelly has a ton of videos that will help you understand how to move properly, so you can lift forever.

I could make a million comments, but look at 2:10 to notice how he corrects the arm floating too far away from the ear. Notice how much you might want to move your arm away from your ear when doing this kind of fascia manipulation...

 

[devenidas]

As one poster said, this really varies according to a person's body structure. Some of us have different shaped collarbones and shoulder girdles. Some of us also have scar tissue from injuries, postural disturbances from being overweight as kids or sitting at computers all day, and some of us have impingement issues already wearing at our rotator cuff.

Behind the neck anything always makes me cringe just because the cervical spine is almost always compressed funky when doing it, not just because of the impingement of the cuff. But I can't sit here and say anyone is wrong or right.

What I can say is that just because you do something a certain way and haven't had an injury yet is not a good indicator of whether or not an exercise is safe for anyone else OR you for that matter. It takes time to erode away at tendons and ligaments. Some of us wake up decades later and wish we never did something a certain way.

So yeah, I'm discussing this more from an injury prevention standpoint rather than a proficiency standpoint.

No matter how you do your shoulders, it would make a huge difference to work with a trainer who understands scapular positioning and have them work with you when you train.

I am as guilty of it as anyone. It is soooooo easy for the scapula to protract or come right out of its natural position during certain parts of any raise or press. When you do this, you risk injury.

I think this is one of the main reasons people find flat bench so unhealthy. It's damn near impossible for people's anterior dominant muscles to be reigned in by their posterior stabilizers during the pressing movement.

If you're wanting maximum size etc, then listen to everyone else, because I don't have anything to share.

If you want to be able to throw a ball when you're 65, without wincing in pain, spend as much time as you can, and exercise as much humility as you can, retraining how you move weights with your shoulders retracted. Spend as much time as you can correcting your posture when sitting at a desk, or driving a car. Take time to learn how the body should be aligned. Get STRAIGHT before you work on getting STRONG. You'll be much happier in the long run.

And for many of us, there is most likely a lot of scar tissue that is built up over the years from misuse or from injecting AAS into our delts. Make sure you are doing corrective exercises and breaking down that tissue as much as possible so that you can retain natural movement. An overhead press with adhesions in your delts will cause some serious disturbances in movement patterns.

SUCK UP YOUR CROSSFIT HATE FOR A SEC > This could save your shoulder's lives...

Scapular Mobility | Feat. Kelly Starrett | MobilityWOD - YouTube

Kelly has a ton of videos that will help you understand how to move properly, so you can lift forever.

I could make a million comments, but look at 2:10 to notice how he corrects the arm floating too far away from the ear. Notice how much you might want to move your arm away from your ear when doing this kind of fascia manipulation...

Yes brother. I love Kelly starrett stuff. I follow him on u tube & Facebook. He puts up some really cool stuff on his feeds. He is a doctor of physical therapy. I am a physiotherapist as well and can say he knows his game very well. . very good post thanks

 

[Stayinfit]

Kelly Starrett vids have helped my mobility tremendously over the past few years. Cool stuff.

If I do any shoulder pressing it's with dumbells and at the end of the workout. Like squats, I think a person's flexibility determines range of motion and whether they can perform them without pain.

 

[ECB]

If I do any shoulder pressing it's with dumbells and at the end of the workout. Like squats, I think a person's flexibility determines range of motion and whether they can perform them without pain.

Kind of. In the short term maybe. Many people will say(for example) "I can't squat to parallel because my hips are tight, so that's why I squat high". OK well isolate the problem, and fix it. You don't just build all these limitations around issues which in many cases are rectified with some knowledge and effort.

I have a friend who had multiple shoulder surgeries(one botched by a military Dr) and surgery on both knees(both done poorly). When starting to train with me he could not even get his hands onto the bar when squatting. He'd literally have his hands touching the plates. He'd also squat 4" above parallel because his "knees hurt". I assessed the issues and we put a plan in motion. This took him having to check his ego(this is where many fail to improve).

We began an aggressive mobility protocol for his shoulders, pecs, lats etc. Literally in 2 weeks his hands were now 2" inside the collars,today a year later his hands are in a normal squat position.

His knees hurt because he didn't know how to squat correctly. We reprogrammed his movement pattern starting with the bar and over weeks, slowly, as long as technique was flawless we'd creep up in weight. Day one he was 1/3rd squatting 405 for reps, could barely get 185 at depth, 6 months later he was burying 405 for a few, and miraculously no knee pain. Go figure.

It just comes down to isolating the problem. The actual problem, which may not be what you think it is because you've conjured up all these notions in your head, and are SURE you can't do it. Why can't you do xx lift? What limiting factors? And correcting it. Many times this takes a second set of eyes to figure out. Shit I'd consider myself extremely competent with the technical side of lifting. I'm extremely good at isolating problems in people's technique and correcting them but sometimes struggle to figure out what is causing a certain issue in my own lifting. Sometimes it's hard to be truly objective with yourself. Luckily I'm surrounded by some highly skilled lifters and we all are constantly helping each other in this regard.

Sure there are some issues serious enough where doing a movement might not be worth the risk, or effort. This needs to be evaluated as well. Sometimes the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Imo one of the most important aspects in lifting is technical mastery. It's one that's extremely overlooked especially in the BB/Aesthetic guys. "feeling" the muscle and stuff like that is only part of the battle. Doing movements in a safe, and technically proficient manner is paramount for injury prevention, and longevity. Technical mastery is a life long pursuit.

Just, of course

 

[concreteguy]

The only press I do for delts is behind the neck press. I haven't done any sort of front press for over a year, and I think it's a useless exercise for bodybuilding (may help with strength, I wouldn't know). I find BTN gives my delts a rounder look and makes all 3 heads balanced. It also hits the upper traps and the long head of the tricep pretty hard, which a lot of people don't realize.

Be careful with these. It's one of the kings of gym injuries. LOL, guys see Leveron doing these and BAM " I got to be doing them".

CG