Fusion Surgery?

[lookslikesausage]

Its hard to explain for me with text only as a verbal conversation would be best for me to describe but back pain/radiating pain can sometimes be dynamic and so can its treatment. I constantly say a person's outcome can sometimes be changed by a good conversation. Terminology can sometimes skew a person't perception when you look up diagnosis's and anatomy. But the phenomenon of spine pain is a cascade events of multiple area degenerating and therefor all treatments could be useful at different times.

Shots are like looking to pour water on the largest fire and then look for the next largest fire to try and extinguish. So different shots can be useful at different times. And a knowledgable doctor should be able to best figure what would work best for different situations yet medicine is educated guessing. If ESIs are working now, use them until you are able to start doing physical therapy again.

As far as you core, if you are having enough forces travel through your body for it to degenerate in one spot worse than the rest of you than their is a weak link in your core somewhere as it takes time and reaction to forces for your body to degenerate. Thats what a good physical therapist is for, to see what you are missing. I'm not familiar with McGill but I have learned about plenty of different techniques on PT. Again, a good PT is able to blend different techniques for different people with different issues like a MMA fighter mixing different styles for accomplish a task.

I really don't think a person can have large nerve nor would an angular tear enlarge a nerve. An angular tear my create sporadic and sometimes constant irritant creating inflammation of a nerve. But generally as we age nerves shrink in size and elderly people with stenosis that progresses slow enough can have nerve shrink and never have issues as the nerves somehow adapt to the tightened nerve portals.

Thank you for your post and insight. Very interesting stuff. Perhaps I haven't delved deep enough into the PT realm of things. I've been in pain for over ten years at this point. As those who've suffered a back injury know, the mental toll it can take on you at times can get quite dark. I will see if I can find the video where McGill talks about the nerve growth. Whether or not that's just a theory...no idea but he does talk about it.

 

[Pericles]

Stuart McGill big 3. Do them 3x a day

 

[lookslikesausage]

Its hard to explain for me with text only as a verbal conversation would be best for me to describe but back pain/radiating pain can sometimes be dynamic and so can its treatment. I constantly say a person's outcome can sometimes be changed by a good conversation. Terminology can sometimes skew a person't perception when you look up diagnosis's and anatomy. But the phenomenon of spine pain is a cascade events of multiple area degenerating and therefor all treatments could be useful at different times.

Shots are like looking to pour water on the largest fire and then look for the next largest fire to try and extinguish. So different shots can be useful at different times. And a knowledgable doctor should be able to best figure what would work best for different situations yet medicine is educated guessing. If ESIs are working now, use them until you are able to start doing physical therapy again.

As far as you core, if you are having enough forces travel through your body for it to degenerate in one spot worse than the rest of you than their is a weak link in your core somewhere as it takes time and reaction to forces for your body to degenerate. Thats what a good physical therapist is for, to see what you are missing. I'm not familiar with McGill but I have learned about plenty of different techniques on PT. Again, a good PT is able to blend different techniques for different people with different issues like a MMA fighter mixing different styles for accomplish a task.

I really don't think a person can have large nerve nor would an angular tear enlarge a nerve. An angular tear my create sporadic and sometimes constant irritant creating inflammation of a nerve. But generally as we age nerves shrink in size and elderly people with stenosis that progresses slow enough can have nerve shrink and never have issues as the nerves somehow adapt to the tightened nerve portals.

Here's the video I was referencing. I got it wrong about Stu McGill said. He doesn't say the nerves grow larger. He says more of them can grow and end up near or in the vertebral body which means a person's body would get more sensitive to pain. Here's the video and that discussion starts at about 11 minutes in.

 

[pickapeck]

You guys will laugh but I have degeneration issues from L3-S1. I did yoga for 8 months and that gave me a great deal of releif. I continue to keep a few of the moves in my normal stretching routine. Regular stretching is a key. I squat and periodically do rack pulls etc without too much difficulty but I go a lot lighter than I use to. The pain does return and I resort to those stretches and yoga more and it helps. Also I do inversion table which helps. Collagen supplementation might help too. You might have to add some accesory movements like hypers and a hip thruster machine. Louie Simons has a machine that helps a lot if you have access to one or something similar.

 

[bigm1]

Hello fellow PM'ers who may have dealt with a similar situation. I figured I would field this question here since we share a common passion that we know we can't live without and I've recently been recommended lumbar fusion surgery (L5-S1) by the first neurosurgeon I consulted with for my sciatica.

I got sciatica for the first time in my life November of last year and it has been getting progressively worse. I'm basically in pain all day long unless I'm lying down. Walking and working out have both become incredibly hard and painful. The sciatica affects my left leg only. It feels like I have knives stabbing me all the way from my back down my glute, hamstring, calf, all the way down to my heel. Tried PT for about two months on top of my usual workout routines and core exercises. I got epidural done as well as cortisone shots outside of the area to no avail. I do not deadlift or squat due to the problem and the few times I've tried with light weights, the situation has gotten worse. Got my MRI done and I have a degenerated disk at L5 S1. The doctor said that the degeneration is moderate and would be non symptomatic for most people. However he said, I have some of the largest nerves he has seen and it's being crushed by my vertebrae (L5 S1). He said there is nothing he can do in terms of a non invasive or non-hardware procedure. I'm down to about 260lbs and tend to stay around a comfortable 13-15% BF and according to the MRI my other disks are in excellent order with no sign of any degeneration.

I've set up a second opinion with a much more renowned surgeon here at Northwestern University Hospital in Chicago and will find out what he will say.

I wanted to see if any of you have faced a similar situation and have gotten a fusion or TDR (total disk replacement)? What was your fusion like? How was the recovery? Did the surgery affect your overall performance after your recovery etc...? I've read and watched videos online of the average joes out there but as we know, we're a bit different. We demand a higher level of performance from our bodies. I would appreciate your experiences and advice. Thanks in advance!

i had this surgery, and it took me a bit to recover, about 6 to 9 months. best of luck! but yes i cant feel the difference at all.

 

[lookslikesausage]

i had this surgery, and it took me a bit to recover, about 6 to 9 months. best of luck! but yes i cant feel the difference at all.

what do you mean? can't feel the difference in reference to what?

 

[bigm1]

what i meant is, i didnt lose anything at all. Feel pain free, then again i never was flexible

 

[lookslikesausage]

what i meant is, i didnt lose anything at all. Feel pain free, then again i never was flexible

Are you able to squat and deadlift? can you twist at the waist laterally? at what point did your doc say, "yes, you're a good candidate for surgery?"

 

[Fatboy3580]

I didn’t read all the posts just the op.I was in a bad car accident in 2002which in laments terms crushed my spine.at first the pain was bad but was just doing epidurals every 3 months but then pain got worse and started pain meds and they kept increasing them to astronomically levels.
I seen 2 neurosurgeons and both recommended surgery but back then the only surgery they did was take a bone from your leg and use that fuse your cervical thoracic spine.I talked to people who had it done and said now they not only have neck pain but there leg is always in pain as well.
I prolonged getting surgery and my pain management dr told me if I don’t have surgery soon the nerve damage from your neck that cause your left arm and hand to be numb would close on me.I didn’t listen within a month my left hand closed into a fist and never opened again.then time went on and found another neurosurgeon that was going to do an instrumental spinal fusion from c3 to t1 and right before the surgery my right hand closed into a fist leaving me with 2 bad hands.she winded being a hack and messing up my surgery and fusion never took.now not only was my pain bad but my head was attached to my chest and I couldn’t move it.I was told I need reconstructive surgery.took me years to find a good dr and 1 that took my insurance and did reconstructive surgery.
Fuijalky got recommended to a dr in mt sinai hospital in New York City.when he saw my mri and then my mylogram he said my spine was in horrible condition and thus would be a huge surgery.I asked what levels he was working on,he told me I had so much going on that he wouldn’t know exactly till he opened me up.he said he need to break every bone in my neck ,then straighten in put on a halo then remove a lot of excess deterioration in my spine then an instrumental spinal fusion.
I couldn’t take the pain anymore snd decided to do it.he had to set up a day where I was the only surgery.it winded up taking 16 hours and the instrumental spinal fusion went from c2- t4 ,10 level in a row.went to rehab but pain persisted and I kept falling atleast 5 times a week.I told him my low back has really been hurting and he insisted I was falling cause even with my surgery my neck was one of the worst he has seen.3 years later my neck started easing up but I still can’t feel my scupulas to this day.my falling was getting worse and low back got worse.I went to make an appt and he moved to Texas so I would need to find a new doctor.go back 3 years from now, I went to stand up and fell immediately and when trying to get up I couldn’t feel or move my legs.I thought I was paralyzed.was sent to ER and was there for 3 weeks till they were able to get a neurosurgeon to do emergency back surgery.I already had sciatica on both legs which is rare and at that point I couldn’t feel or move them.after the surgery and rehab I was back home but confined to a wheelchair.I was seeing a physical therapist which was doing nothing for me.
I ended up needing another major instrumental spinal fusion of L4-S2 ,4 more levels and back to physical therapy again doing nothing .I needed a home aid to take care of me .from cleaning up to making my meals to showering and cleaning me in the bathroom.then COVID hit and my wife was working from home so I didn’t need an aid but it was hard on her.I begged her to take me to the gym since I felt that’s the only thing that would help getting my strength back up.obviously guns weren’t opened at the time.
Usually in the summertime she works sumner school the dies easily intervention as a second job but she finally agreed to take off summer school to take me to the gym.I went from a wheelchair to a walker and I can even go up and down the stairs.I also can walk a short distance without any instrument.my pain is now controlled on the low dose of opiates I’m on if I didn’t need a hip replacement I feel like I would be able to walk normal with practice for the first time in20 years.I don’t fall anymore,I’m not in a lot of pain anymore.my lower back only took a year to recover but was much smaller than my other surgery.my doctors keep telling me how good I look both mentally and physically.fir tge first time I have hope of recovery.
If I didn’t do these surgery’s I would be in a wheelchair permanently.
Your only doing a 1 level instrumental spinal fusion,you should be out if the hospital in a few days.at first you will probably say your pain got worse but give it time and you will be happy you did it.
Just make sure you use a dr that’s referred to you by a patient that had a similar surgery and then read reviews and get a second opinion.
You have any questions regarding this issue feel free to message me anytime I would be happy to help.

 

[Turkishexpress]

I didn’t read all the posts just the op.I was in a bad car accident in 2002which in laments terms crushed my spine.at first the pain was bad but was just doing epidurals every 3 months but then pain got worse and started pain meds and they kept increasing them to astronomically levels.
I seen 2 neurosurgeons and both recommended surgery but back then the only surgery they did was take a bone from your leg and use that fuse your cervical thoracic spine.I talked to people who had it done and said now they not only have neck pain but there leg is always in pain as well.
I prolonged getting surgery and my pain management dr told me if I don’t have surgery soon the nerve damage from your neck that cause your left arm and hand to be numb would close on me.I didn’t listen within a month my left hand closed into a fist and never opened again.then time went on and found another neurosurgeon that was going to do an instrumental spinal fusion from c3 to t1 and right before the surgery my right hand closed into a fist leaving me with 2 bad hands.she winded being a hack and messing up my surgery and fusion never took.now not only was my pain bad but my head was attached to my chest and I couldn’t move it.I was told I need reconstructive surgery.took me years to find a good dr and 1 that took my insurance and did reconstructive surgery....

Thank you for sharing your story and sorry for your extreme condition. Got my second epidural about 3 weeks ago and most of the pain is gone. I've taken myself off all opioids and weaned myself off the gabapentin even. I've taken the opportunity really focus on my core and still have my second opinion with a very well known surgeon on December 3rd. I'm going to see how that goes.

 

[TrippplePPP]

Thank you for sharing your story and sorry for your extreme condition. Got my second epidural about 3 weeks ago and most of the pain is gone. I've taken myself off all opioids and weaned myself off the gabapentin even. I've taken the opportunity really focus on my core and still have my second opinion with a very well known surgeon on December 3rd. I'm going to see how that goes.

Let us know how that goes. Glad you're feeling better bro. And good for you for weening off the meds.

 

[Fatboy3580]

Epidurals are just a quick fix.you will need another one about every 3-5 months depending on how you feel.also cortisone is really bad for you.it deteriorates your bones causing you to have more issues than what you started with. I’d. See iggest doing the surgery.it’s really not a big surgery and for 1 level you will be back to
Yourself in no time.
Good luck

 

[Turkishexpress]

Hello gents, I just wanted to update y'all on this in case anyone was following...

I got my second opinion from a very good surgeon at Rush hospital December of last year. He did not want to proceed with a spinal fusion just yet. He actually told me to do some more physical therapy and monitor the degeneration to see if I would benefit from a discectomy to clean out the area that is bothering the nerve that was causing the sciatica.

Well it has been a year and even though my sciatica pain got a tiny bit better, I started experiencing much worse pain on my right side in the same area. So, I recently got a second MRI and it's showing significant degeneration from last year in L5-S1. After looking over my two MRIs, and multiple xrays, the same surgeon's new suggestion is that I'm a perfect candidate for ALIF surgery (Anterior Lumbar Interbody Fusion).

The good news....

1) The fusion will be completed from the front which apparently has a much quicker recovery time and less pain and 95% success rate. Also apparently they can fit a much larger titanium spacer btw the discs for better stability while healing.
2) Due to the good condition of my other discs, and the location of the issue (L5-S1), he said there should be no further issues with any other discs requiring a fusion in the future (he gave a 2% chance).
3) He said that I should experience 0 loss of power and flexibility due to the fusion with utmost confidence.

The bad news...

1) It will take 6-12 weeks before I can exercise in any fashion. I guess this is better than before when the initial surgeon told me 6 months.
2) My house has a lot of stairs. How did y'all deal with stairs?
3) I saw a video of the surgery itself and it's freaking me out lol.

If you have a moment and have had a fusion, I would greatly appreciate some tips. Thank you in advance!

 

[buck]

I had my L4-5 fused 10 years ago. As well as having a laminectomy, and a couple metal rods put in to pull the spine back into position as i had a grade 3 spondylolisthesis as 2 discs had collapsed causing the spine to slide forward. They went in from the rear but only required 2 small incisions with very little muscle being cut. No real pain. Had the surgery and was released about 18 hours later(they said that was record as most are there for at least 2-3 days). Tapered down on the Oxy after 5 days and was off everything by day 7. Was back to work as a journeyman machinist 10 days after the surgery. Back in the gym the next day moving massive weights i.e. 20-30 # leg extension, curls, pull downs etc. All movements at work and the gym slow and controled. My surgeon said as long as my spine had support there was no issue training. The Dr originally said 10 pounds at most to lift and told him to get real as my bags of groceries weigh more then that. He just laughed and offered 25 pounds as a limit. Every orthopedic surgeon i have been to says staying active in a reasonable fashion is better then doing nothing. Keep eating nutritious food as that is what fuels recovery. I take whey to the hospital with me for all my surgeries. And eat healthy sufficient amounts of food when i get home even though the Oxy kills my appetite. I chew and swallow.

 

[muscle96ss]

Hello gents, I just wanted to update y'all on this in case anyone was following...

I got my second opinion from a very good surgeon at Rush hospital December of last year. He did not want to proceed with a spinal fusion just yet. He actually told me to do some more physical therapy and monitor the degeneration to see if I would benefit from a discectomy to clean out the area that is bothering the nerve that was causing the sciatica.

Well it has been a year and even though my sciatica pain got a tiny bit better, I started experiencing much worse pain on my right side in the same area. So, I recently got a second MRI and it's showing significant degeneration from last year in L5-S1. After looking over my two MRIs, and multiple xrays, the same surgeon's new suggestion is that I'm a perfect candidate for ALIF surgery (Anterior Lumbar Interbody Fusion).

The good news....

1) The fusion will be completed from the front which apparently has a much quicker recovery time and less pain and 95% success rate. Also apparently they can fit a much larger titanium spacer btw the discs for better stability while healing.
2) Due to the good condition of my other discs, and the location of the issue (L5-S1), he said there should be no further issues with any other discs requiring a fusion in the future (he gave a 2% chance).
3) He said that I should experience 0 loss of power and flexibility due to the fusion with utmost confidence.

The bad news...

1) It will take 6-12 weeks before I can exercise in any fashion. I guess this is better than before when the initial surgeon told me 6 months.
2) My house has a lot of stairs. How did y'all deal with stairs?
3) I saw a video of the surgery itself and it's freaking me out lol.

If you have a moment and have had a fusion, I would greatly appreciate some tips. Thank you in advance!

I've had 2 fusions; L3-S1 in 12/2020 and L2-L3 6 weeks ago. Mine were both posterior, so I don't know how much different your experience will be. But if you have a good surgeon and are in good shape going into this; you should get through it easily. You may have some bad pain and difficulty finding a comfortable sleeping position in the beginning; but after a few weeks it will ease up. Pain really depends on the person. I have a huge tolerance and after this last surgery didn't need any pain meds after surgery until I got a hematoma that impinged on the nerves down the road several days. In terms of stairs, that should not be an issue. I was able to do stairs after my first surgery the morning after, no problem. In fact they will encourage walking and movement(but with a brace for a while). The main thing is not load the spine and let the bones fuse together without disruption.

 

[TrippplePPP]

Hello gents, I just wanted to update y'all on this in case anyone was following...

I got my second opinion from a very good surgeon at Rush hospital December of last year. He did not want to proceed with a spinal fusion just yet. He actually told me to do some more physical therapy and monitor the degeneration to see if I would benefit from a discectomy to clean out the area that is bothering the nerve that was causing the sciatica.

Well it has been a year and even though my sciatica pain got a tiny bit better, I started experiencing much worse pain on my right side in the same area. So, I recently got a second MRI and it's showing significant degeneration from last year in L5-S1. After looking over my two MRIs, and multiple xrays, the same surgeon's new suggestion is that I'm a perfect candidate for ALIF surgery (Anterior Lumbar Interbody Fusion).

The good news....

1) The fusion will be completed from the front which apparently has a much quicker recovery time and less pain and 95% success rate. Also apparently they can fit a much larger titanium spacer btw the discs for better stability while healing.
2) Due to the good condition of my other discs, and the location of the issue (L5-S1), he said there should be no further issues with any other discs requiring a fusion in the future (he gave a 2% chance).
3) He said that I should experience 0 loss of power and flexibility due to the fusion with utmost confidence.

The bad news...

1) It will take 6-12 weeks before I can exercise in any fashion. I guess this is better than before when the initial surgeon told me 6 months.
2) My house has a lot of stairs. How did y'all deal with stairs?
3) I saw a video of the surgery itself and it's freaking me out lol.

If you have a moment and have had a fusion, I would greatly appreciate some tips. Thank you in advance!

Hey, TE. I replied to your other thread and your wording makes me think you are in good hands with the way you describe things. In the other thread I disagreed with the 2% statement as the above and below joint have to make up for the fused region and that has to increase degeneration rate but really it shouldn't be anything to worry about. I work with spine surgeons and actually just worked with a newer spine surgeon today. I agree with the guys posting above me that say take it easy and make sure the area fuses correctly and then slowly get back into working out. Again, the people who take care of themselves come out doing much better than the population that does not take care of themselves. I wish you the best and will put my money on the bet that you will do very well.

 

[Bio]

Hello gents, I just wanted to update y'all on this in case anyone was following...

I got my second opinion from a very good surgeon at Rush hospital December of last year. He did not want to proceed with a spinal fusion just yet. He actually told me to do some more physical therapy and monitor the degeneration to see if I would benefit from a discectomy to clean out the area that is bothering the nerve that was causing the sciatica.

Well it has been a year and even though my sciatica pain got a tiny bit better, I started experiencing much worse pain on my right side in the same area. So, I recently got a second MRI and it's showing significant degeneration from last year in L5-S1. After looking over my two MRIs, and multiple xrays, the same surgeon's new suggestion is that I'm a perfect candidate for ALIF surgery (Anterior Lumbar Interbody Fusion).

The good news....

1) The fusion will be completed from the front which apparently has a much quicker recovery time and less pain and 95% success rate. Also apparently they can fit a much larger titanium spacer btw the discs for better stability while healing.
2) Due to the good condition of my other discs, and the location of the issue (L5-S1), he said there should be no further issues with any other discs requiring a fusion in the future (he gave a 2% chance).
3) He said that I should experience 0 loss of power and flexibility due to the fusion with utmost confidence.

The bad news...

1) It will take 6-12 weeks before I can exercise in any fashion. I guess this is better than before when the initial surgeon told me 6 months.
2) My house has a lot of stairs. How did y'all deal with stairs?
3) I saw a video of the surgery itself and it's freaking me out lol.

If you have a moment and have had a fusion, I would greatly appreciate some tips. Thank you in advance!

Hey TE, I'm glad you got more than one opinion before moving forward. I got 3 opinions on my lumbar and cervical areas. Fortunately they all had the same diagnosis which put my mind at ease. Like I said before, once you've completely healed and gain flexibility back, you won't notice a difference in range of motion with an L5s1 fusion. It's hard for me to comment on recovery because mine was L4-5 & L5s1 fusion. Mine was also ALIF. It's a one time only surgery. Once they go through the front, they won't be able to do it again. Any future lumbar fusions will be done through the back.

Let us know when your surgery is and keep us posted in general.

 

[Turkishexpress]

Thank you guys for all the experiences and advice. It means a lot.

Bio - thank you brother. The surgery is on Jan 25th or Feb 13th depending on the vascular surgeon's availability. The neurosurgeon is a go. I'll keep y'all updated with my progress.

 

[TrippplePPP]

Good luck bro. Let us know how things go for sure.

 

[supermofo]

Best of luck! L5,S1 fusion here after 2 failed microdiscectomies. Mine would be great had I just gotten the fusion done in the first place but now I have lots of scar tissue encompassing my nerve roots from having 3 surgeries in the same place all 6 months apart. The fusion was an immediate improvement though! I think you'll do fine but don't rush your recovery.