Great new insulin article by Mike Arnold

[Knight9]

Oh believe me I know how to use slin. that isn't what I am curious about in the least. I am curious how does one know the optimal number of carbs for best growth and recovery? that seems pretty damn hard to know and he talked about it matter of factly. and completely avoided explaining how to get that number. anyone whether using insulin or not wants to know that number.
-JS

Agreed.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I feel like, while not introducing a lot of new info
The purpose was not to talk about something new, but to address common topics that many people get wrong, which is why it was titled "common misconceptions and frequently asked questions".
, he did a phenom job at clarifying its use as well as raising awareness on issues that need attention....
Thanks.

What strikes me most is WOW he is a good writer.
Much appreciated.

HAS to have a formal education in english....
Yep--made it through 8th grade English. That's 8 whole years of solid education right there.

....

 

[Mike Arnold]

Would'nt you be better off using whey isolate instead of carbs like he stated.
The protein would be more beneficial for recovery and excess would be converted to glucose...

In the large majority of cases, no. This is because carbs have benefits that cannot be obtained with protein. Therefore, although you may be able to avoid hypoglycemia by using protein alone, doing so is not optimal for recovery and growth.

One of the primary benefits associated with carbs is their ability to increase blood insulin levels, as insulin has both anabolic and anti-catabolic effects on muscle tissue. Using exogenous insulin will allow you to continue recieving those benefits in the absence of carbs, as you will be injecting insulin directly into your body. However, you will miss out on all the other benefits carbs have to offer.

Without carbs, it is impossible to achieve maximum muscle volumization--a critical factor when trying to grow as quickly as possible--for many reasons. Yes, protein can be converted to glucose, but in the absence of carbs most of this will be used to power normal metabolic functions or simply used as energy. This is why people who follow low or zero carb diets go flat (a state which will negatively impact muscle growth to a signifcant degree)--the body simply doesn't have enough extra glucose available to fill up glycogen stores.

It is also difficult to create a caloric surplus (essential for maximizing muscle growth), when eating protein & fats alone, not to mention such a diet would be far from ideal in terms of whole-body health.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I would like to know his method finding this number. That's really the missing piece. how did he get the number 170gm carbs? Sooooo many factors come into how many carbs you need for optimal replenishment/recovery.

I agree with all of it for sure
-JS

In my opinion, when in the bodybuilder is in the off-season and muscle growth is the #1 goal, he should consume as many carbs as he can without adding excess bodyfat.

In order to determine what that number is, one must first determine their protein and fat requirements. Once those are in place, carbs should make up the remainder of one's daily calories.

Now, the BB'r will likely have to tinker with his carb intake for a bit before he finds the amount of carbs which allow him to ride that fine line between maximizing growth and avoiding excess fat gain, but he will eventually find it.

This method works whether someone gains fat easily or has no problem staying lean, as it gives them to power to adjust their carb intake based on their body's own needs, while ensuring that proten & fat requirements are met from the get-go.

Of course, this all goes out the window when in contest prep and fat loss is the priority.

Note: The "170 grams" of carbs was just a hypothetical number I threw out there when trying to make a point.

 

[Mike Arnold]

think i read Mike somewhere saying he thought of lantus as the best insulin of choice. cant remember if it was him though for sure.

but lantus has by far the most activity on the igf receptor compared to faster slins apparently.
i remember reading a medical article too from a year ago where they said discontinuing lantus was being considered due to its effects on igf-1 levels and potential cancer risk for certain patients with existing conditions.

I never say any one slin is the "best" because what is best for one person might not be the best for another based on the user's experience level, needs, goals, finances, etc, etc, etc.

However, I do think Lantus, when used properly and in combination with fast acting insulins, can add more mass, more quickly, than any other method. I wrote a short article on lantus not too long ago...and yes, it does have the most pronounced effect on IGF-1 receptors.


Here is a little excerpt from that article...

"Perhaps the most fascinating characteristic of Lantus is its affect on IGF-1/IGF-1 receptors. In multiple university studies, Lantus has demonstrated a much greater binding affinity for the IGF-1 receptor than regular human insulin or any of the other analogs. It is interesting to note that Levemir, the only other long-acting insulin on the market, exhibits reduced IGF-1 binding affinity compared to human insulin. This puts Lantus and Levemir at the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of binding affinity.

While increased IGF-1 binding is generally viewed as a positive thing for muscle growth, it has been the focal point of ongoing debate in the medical community for the last several years, as some studies have shown an increased cancer risk when using Lantus. Since then, other studies have refuted that notion, but the debate continues, with the medical community reluctant to take a stand one way or the other.

Due to contradictory study results, there is also some dispute regarding Lantus’s true affinity for the insulin receptor. One study demonstrated a binding affinity up to 600X greater than regular human insulin, while another revealed a much more modest, but still impressive binding affinity of 6-8X greater. Why is this important? A drug's ability to affect its target receptor is related directly to its affinity. The higher a drug’s affinity for a particular receptor, the more probable binding becomes, while duration of action at the receptor site is often increased.

Insulin’s IGF-1 elevating effects have been well established for some time, but the question in most BB’rs minds is “do the different forms of insulin increase IGF-1 levels to varying degrees? According to recent research, the answer is yes, as patients treated with Lantus were found to have higher IGF-1 levels compared to those who used regular human insulin. With IGF-1 playing a critical role in the growth and development of muscle cells, this benefit shouldn’t be underestimated. Technically, this should make Lantus the most anabolic form of insulin available."

 

[Mike Arnold]

How do people use pre workout slin for more then 3 weeks with out feeling hypo at random times through out the day?

Mike said you could get away with not cycling but I certainly can't

For example: yesterday I had not used my humolog 12iu pre workout injection for almost 48 hour, I eat lunch, 200g chicken, 300g rice, 1 banana, 40 mins later am going hypo, dizzy, blurred vision, sweating ete, this has happen 3 times in the last 5 days now, always 40-60mins after food, only been runing 12iu 5 time a week for maybe 3 weeks ish

Any one eles get this?

Iv stoped using it an I'll give it a few weeks before I jump back on
Share

If you're going hypo 48 hours after a humalog injection, it is certainly not from the Humalog.

Just to clarify, when I said one could get away with not cycling, I was referring to pre-workout insulin use only, as using insulin 4-5X weekly (the number of times most BB'rs train per week) is not enough to have a significant negative effect on insulin sensitivity. It may have some effect, but it will be relatively minor. Besides, this is easily overcome with the appropriate supplementaion.

 

[jlm25]

I never say any one slin is the "best" because what is best for one person might not be the best for another based on the user's experience level, needs, goals, finances, etc, etc, etc.

However, I do think Lantus, when used properly and in combination with fast acting insulins, can add more mass, more quickly, than any other method. I wrote a short article on lantus not too long ago...and yes, it does have the most pronounced effect on IGF-1 receptors.


Here is a little excerpt from that article...

"Perhaps the most fascinating characteristic of Lantus is its affect on IGF-1/IGF-1 receptors. In multiple university studies, Lantus has demonstrated a much greater binding affinity for the IGF-1 receptor than regular human insulin or any of the other analogs. It is interesting to note that Levemir, the only other long-acting insulin on the market, exhibits reduced IGF-1 binding affinity compared to human insulin. This puts Lantus and Levemir at the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of binding affinity.

While increased IGF-1 binding is generally viewed as a positive thing for muscle growth, it has been the focal point of ongoing debate in the medical community for the last several years, as some studies have shown an increased cancer risk when using Lantus. Since then, other studies have refuted that notion, but the debate continues, with the medical community reluctant to take a stand one way or the other.

Due to contradictory study results, there is also some dispute regarding Lantus’s true affinity for the insulin receptor. One study demonstrated a binding affinity up to 600X greater than regular human insulin, while another revealed a much more modest, but still impressive binding affinity of 6-8X greater. Why is this important? A drug's ability to affect its target receptor is related directly to its affinity. The higher a drug’s affinity for a particular receptor, the more probable binding becomes, while duration of action at the receptor site is often increased.

Insulin’s IGF-1 elevating effects have been well established for some time, but the question in most BB’rs minds is “do the different forms of insulin increase IGF-1 levels to varying degrees? According to recent research, the answer is yes, as patients treated with Lantus were found to have higher IGF-1 levels compared to those who used regular human insulin. With IGF-1 playing a critical role in the growth and development of muscle cells, this benefit shouldn’t be underestimated. Technically, this should make Lantus the most anabolic form of insulin available."

Do you have a link to the article that I may read it in its entirety please?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Do you have a link to the article that I may read it in its entirety please?

Not sure, but it is posted somewhere over at IML.

 

[ricky23]

I never say any one slin is the "best" because what is best for one person might not be the best for another based on the user's experience level, needs, goals, finances, etc, etc, etc.

However, I do think Lantus, when used properly and in combination with fast acting insulins, can add more mass, more quickly, than any other method. I wrote a short article on lantus not too long ago...and yes, it does have the most pronounced effect on IGF-1 receptors.


Here is a little excerpt from that article...

"Perhaps the most fascinating characteristic of Lantus is its affect on IGF-1/IGF-1 receptors. In multiple university studies, Lantus has demonstrated a much greater binding affinity for the IGF-1 receptor than regular human insulin or any of the other analogs. It is interesting to note that Levemir, the only other long-acting insulin on the market, exhibits reduced IGF-1 binding affinity compared to human insulin. This puts Lantus and Levemir at the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of binding affinity.

While increased IGF-1 binding is generally viewed as a positive thing for muscle growth, it has been the focal point of ongoing debate in the medical community for the last several years, as some studies have shown an increased cancer risk when using Lantus. Since then, other studies have refuted that notion, but the debate continues, with the medical community reluctant to take a stand one way or the other.

Due to contradictory study results, there is also some dispute regarding Lantus’s true affinity for the insulin receptor. One study demonstrated a binding affinity up to 600X greater than regular human insulin, while another revealed a much more modest, but still impressive binding affinity of 6-8X greater. Why is this important? A drug's ability to affect its target receptor is related directly to its affinity. The higher a drug’s affinity for a particular receptor, the more probable binding becomes, while duration of action at the receptor site is often increased.

Insulin’s IGF-1 elevating effects have been well established for some time, but the question in most BB’rs minds is “do the different forms of insulin increase IGF-1 levels to varying degrees? According to recent research, the answer is yes, as patients treated with Lantus were found to have higher IGF-1 levels compared to those who used regular human insulin. With IGF-1 playing a critical role in the growth and development of muscle cells, this benefit shouldn’t be underestimated. Technically, this should make Lantus the most anabolic form of insulin available."

in that case wouldn't it be more beneficial to just use more lantus over fast insulins?
adding humalog doses on top of lantus would make it very difficult to really ramp up the lantus dose.
do you think it not worthwhile to forego the fast insulin and increase the lantus instead?
(higher igf-1 levels)

with faster insulin i feel we're probably only getting the benefits of decreased protein degradation and nutrient transport but with lantus we're getting the huge added benefit of higher igf-1 levels.
so if im going to use 80 ius of insulin, do you think it would be more beneficial to use it all from lantus instead of 40ius from lantus and 40ius from humalog?

i maybe massively off base here though and not really sure just how much lantus effects igf-1 levels (in comparison to gh etc)

thanks Mike, much appreciated.

 

[jayl19]

If you're going hypo 48 hours after a humalog injection, it is certainly not from the Humalog.



Just to clarify, when I said one could get away with not cycling, I was referring to pre-workout insulin use only, as using insulin 4-5X weekly (the number of times most BB'rs train per week) is not enough to have a significant negative effect on insulin sensitivity. It may have some effect, but it will be relatively minor. Besides, this is easily overcome with the appropriate supplementaion.

Hey mike, thanks for reply

I wasn't having a dig incase you thought I was, I was only runing the humolog pre workout 4-5 times a week, just seemed to mess up my natural insulin or some thing, felt hypo after large meals 3 days on the run, day 4, 5, 6 after last jab I was fine, I'll jump back on in 10 days

Temped to try 2 weeks on lantus 50iu per day an 500mg metformin 3x per day

This sound like a good starting point or too much, cheers

 

[Mike Arnold]

in that case wouldn't it be more beneficial to just use more lantus over fast insulins?
adding humalog doses on top of lantus would make it very difficult to really ramp up the lantus dose.
do you think it not worthwhile to forego the fast insulin and increase the lantus instead?
(higher igf-1 levels)

with faster insulin i feel we're probably only getting the benefits of decreased protein degradation and nutrient transport but with lantus we're getting the huge added benefit of higher igf-1 levels.
so if im going to use 80 ius of insulin, do you think it would be more beneficial to use it all from lantus instead of 40ius from lantus and 40ius from humalog?

i maybe massively off base here though and not really sure just how much lantus effects igf-1 levels (in comparison to gh etc)

thanks Mike, much appreciated.

If a fast-acting insulin is used with Lantus, I usually prefer Humalog/Humulin and even then, it is only used around training. In addition, the Lantus dose is tyically dosed much higher than fast-acting insulin.

The reason I prefer adding a fast-acting slin to Lantus is because it helps drive a larger amount of nutrients into the muscle at specific times, such as during the training window. Yes, you could accomplish this with Lantus only, but in order for blood insulin levels to get high enough to amplify nutrient deliverly to the same degree as an injection of humulin/Humalog, you would need to take a massive dose of Lantus.

The problem with this is is that it can be dangerous, as you would have super high blood insulin levels all day long. It would also make it much more difficult to stay lean.

As far as IGF-1 goes, Lantus is not the only form of insulin that raises IGF-1 levels. They all do. Lantus just does it better than the rest. It also possesses a stronger binding affinity, as well.

 

[snrose07]

Do you have a link to the article that I may read it in its entirety please?

Copy and paste a paragraph Mike posted into google. First result.

Lantus ? The Ultimate Insulin Analog?

 

[snrose07]

That was a great article. I have ever considered Lantus. Now this has my gears turning in my head and contemplating new ideas. I love learning something new.

Not to get off the topic, but I really like finding stuff you put out Mike. I've listened to your podcasts with Gear'd up and PED radio and enjoy your articles. Each year I do a new prep, I love trying new things and ideas i've learned and pieced together from my off time. I'm about to start a 20 week prep where the first 10 week sill be to add as much size as I can while staying lean or getting a bit leaner. I usually get leaner when I use insulin precontest. This would be a good time to use Lantus.

Some new ideas I plan to incorporate, and may be frowned upon by some, are this.

I been in a hormonal, dietary, and workout "deficit" the last couple months... Purposely. Kind of "down regulating" my body to set it up for a better response when I ramp up everything. I used gear pretty well most of this year so I needed that break as well. I've done this instinctively for awhile, always holding my body back before slamming it again. I came across your article Mike that has some ideas about doing the same thing. This helped reassure my ideas.

**broken link removed**

I'm going to take it a step further and do like 2 weeks of DNP at just 250mg a day. This will lean me up fairly well which will have benefits to me responding better to gear. Plus DNP has insulin sensitizing effects, so when I slam on the insulin as I come off DNP and my gear has just starting kicking in at the same time, I should have an incredible synergistic rebound effect.

Now with the Lantus article, I may tweak my plan for this phase of prep and take out my dietary fats and replace with carbs and have carbs every meal all day along with shots of humalog with training which will be 2x a day. AM explosive/ motor recruitment workout, then PM capitalize on the CNS over excitation 6hrs later with a hypertrophy workout. learned from reading Poliquin and Pakulski information.

Another thing taken from Mike is implementing free form leucine with meals. Info in this article and he has discussed it on the boards a lot...

Overcoming Whole-food Protein Limitations

I will be trying some hormone and peptide timing with my workouts. Test suspension and orals taken before workout given time for them to peak during Workout. 3-4iu GH taken 1-1.5hr pre workout. Log taken 30 mins prior. GHRP/GHRH taken Postworkout.

Sorry I did not mean to ramble about ME, but I wanted to show some ideas I had and how I am implementing some of Mike's knowledge to my own application.

Here is a question for mike, how would you best implement GH with a Lantus and Humalog protocol. I see a correlation between the info you have given and what I have learned listening to the podcasts on Gear'd Up Radio with Ameen Alai, someone new I just learned of. He seems to say to take small 1-2IU gh many times a day with many small insulin shots too. Supposedly this is one of the methods for when he got Don Long and Craig Titus to gain so much mass in such a short period of time. Now learning this it seems that Lantus would be more effective than many humalog or humalin shots, keep those for workouts when you take more bolus amounts of carbs. Do you have any opinion Mike, on optimal GH dosing when slin is active all day long? I know many small shots are supposed to be optimal for fat loss and larger infrequent doses better for growth, but it seems other wise with Ameen Alai and perhaps an all day Lantus may change the field a bit. Your thoughts/ideas??

 

[Mike Arnold]

Hey mike, thanks for reply

I wasn't having a dig incase you thought I was,
You're fine.

I was only runing the humolog pre workout 4-5 times a week, just seemed to mess up my natural insulin or some thing, felt hypo after large meals 3 days on the run, day 4, 5, 6 after last jab I was fine, I'll jump back on in 10 days

Temped to try 2 weeks on lantus 50iu per day an 500mg metformin 3x per day

This sound like a good starting point or too much, cheers
I wouldn't start at 50 IU. Stary at like 20 IU your first day, then maybe 30 IU your 2nd day, then 40 IU, etc. 50 IU is a pretty substantial dose, byt withoit any other insulin in the picture, you will be fine. Metformin is a great idea, and tossing some berberine in there with it would be even better.

....

 

[heavydeadlifts]

Temped to try 2 weeks on lantus 50iu per day

This sound like a good starting point or too much, cheers

That actually sounds like a good way to die in your sleep, or have your woman try to wake you up in the morning finding you unconscious, pale, in a pool of your sweat with no access to IM glucagon or IV access to bolus some D50, if you're lucky she might think of trying sublingual sugar packets under your tongue if she or whoever finds you knows you are even taking insulin

Keep in mind that the peak effect of Lantus is unknown and the duration of action is 24 hours

50iu's for a non diabetic with functioning pancreas beta cells that doesn't have insulin resistance smells like a recipe for disaster

Yes, Lantus doesn't "hit as hard" as say humalog, it was designed to slowly release insulin over 24 hours

 

[GS]

After reading Mike Arnold s posts and articles i am going to give slin a try!

 

[Achilleos]

That was a great article. I have ever considered Lantus. Now this has my gears turning in my head and contemplating new ideas. I love learning something new.

Not to get off the topic, but I really like finding stuff you put out Mike. I've listened to your podcasts with Gear'd up and PED radio and enjoy your articles. Each year I do a new prep, I love trying new things and ideas i've learned and pieced together from my off time. I'm about to start a 20 week prep where the first 10 week sill be to add as much size as I can while staying lean or getting a bit leaner. I usually get leaner when I use insulin precontest. This would be a good time to use Lantus.

Some new ideas I plan to incorporate, and may be frowned upon by some, are this.

I been in a hormonal, dietary, and workout "deficit" the last couple months... Purposely. Kind of "down regulating" my body to set it up for a better response when I ramp up everything. I used gear pretty well most of this year so I needed that break as well. I've done this instinctively for awhile, always holding my body back before slamming it again. I came across your article Mike that has some ideas about doing the same thing. This helped reassure my ideas.

**broken link removed**



I'm going to take it a step further and do like 2 weeks of DNP at just 250mg a day. This will lean me up fairly well which will have benefits to me responding better to gear. Plus DNP has insulin sensitizing effects, so when I slam on the insulin as I come off DNP and my gear has just starting kicking in at the same time, I should have an incredible synergistic rebound effect.

Now with the Lantus article, I may tweak my plan for this phase of prep and take out my dietary fats and replace with carbs and have carbs every meal all day along with shots of humalog with training which will be 2x a day. AM explosive/ motor recruitment workout, then PM capitalize on the CNS over excitation 6hrs later with a hypertrophy workout. learned from reading Poliquin and Pakulski information.

Another thing taken from Mike is implementing free form leucine with meals. Info in this article and he has discussed it on the boards a lot...

Overcoming Whole-food Protein Limitations

I will be trying some hormone and peptide timing with my workouts. Test suspension and orals taken before workout given time for them to peak during Workout. 3-4iu GH taken 1-1.5hr pre workout. Log taken 30 mins prior. GHRP/GHRH taken Postworkout.

Sorry I did not mean to ramble about ME, but I wanted to show some ideas I had and how I am implementing some of Mike's knowledge to my own application.

Here is a question for mike, how would you best implement GH with a Lantus and Humalog protocol. I see a correlation between the info you have given and what I have learned listening to the podcasts on Gear'd Up Radio with Ameen Alai, someone new I just learned of. He seems to say to take small 1-2IU gh many times a day with many small insulin shots too. Supposedly this is one of the methods for when he got Don Long and Craig Titus to gain so much mass in such a short period of time. Now learning this it seems that Lantus would be more effective than many humalog or humalin shots, keep those for workouts when you take more bolus amounts of carbs. Do you have any opinion Mike, on optimal GH dosing when slin is active all day long? I know many small shots are supposed to be optimal for fat loss and larger infrequent doses better for growth, but it seems other wise with Ameen Alai and perhaps an all day Lantus may change the field a bit. Your thoughts/ideas??

Bump for this.
I don't post often but I was really impressed by your post, since I have many of the same thoughts and no one responded. I think ameen acknowledged long acting slin but seemed to be more keen on the idea of following peaks and troughs similar to what we experience naturally. He also mentioned something about how once igf-1 is increased, it stays present for a long period. I am curious how frequent small doses of humalog compare to long acting. I know that Milos seemed against long acting slin, but his reasoning was resistance especially when using with GH, and we can combat that with metaformin etc. I think I will try the lower dose lantus with humalog peaks (at least pre workout), and metaformin on 1-2 non slin days a week.
Quick question: I noticed your ghrp-6. How do you like that post workout (carb use?)? I can't afford the gh, and curious if you noticed a comparable affect.

Mike Arnold, thanks for the contributions on the board. Your information has really helped educate me, over the years and I know I'm not alone.


Thanks,
Paul