Great video on inflammation and site enhancement in the 90's

[hawkmoon]

This guy is not ground breaking or revolutionary.

I have watched a few of his vids and would agree with this.

What I would say however, is he seems to have a gift of curiosity combined with either a good memory or good self-teleprompting / script reading.
In the end, he has created a nicely packaged amount of content that is an amalgamation of information one could find on their own, but most will not expend the effort to do so.
Nice packaging with half-decent presentation, wrapped in a veneer of novelty is 80% of building a decent YouTube following.

My wife saw me watching a clip and immediately declared she didn't like him, that he seemed to be full of himself

 

[Elvia1023]

I have watched a few of his vids and would agree with this.

What I would say however, is he seems to have a gift of curiosity combined with either a good memory or good self-teleprompting / script reading.
In the end, he has created a nicely packaged amount of content that is an amalgamation of information one could find on their own, but most will not expend the effort to do so.
Nice packaging with half-decent presentation, wrapped in a veneer of novelty is 80% of building a decent YouTube following.

My wife saw me watching a clip and immediately declared she didn't like him, that he seemed to be full of himself

I think nearly all people with a high IG have a good memory. They generally are a bit full (many don't show it until challenged) of themselves as well from my experience. Obviously there are many exceptions so people don't need to list smart people who are super nice. Surely 99% of the things we see on you-tube we can find on our own but most don't take the effort to do so. The world is full of information but some people are much better at taking that information, memorizing it and most importantly understanding it. Regardless, I don't post some of his videos because I want people to like him it's more they contain some good information. Many may think he is a prick but the video I posted definitely includes some really good information on inflammation. I have come across it before from multiple sources so to have it in a 20 min or so slot of video could be beneficial for some to see. Many on here may already know it but again he comes out with some useful and detailed information.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Leo seems to be quite intelligent on the "longevity" front when it comes to the science, but what I can't stand are the constant bullshit shots he takes at Dante. I have no idea what he has against him, but it seems like every other podcast of his I've listened to some of, he's talking shit about Dante... Not to sit here and kiss Dante's ass, but the guy has brought more to the table in this endeavor than 99.9% of the guys out there, so for leo to constantly be taking potshots at him, really discredits Leo...

The other thing is that he constantly talks about how he "used to be big" and was a "competitive arm wrestler," which may or may not be true, but most guys in this endeavor that are trying to make a name for themselves would at least post a picture or two back in the days when they actually were "big."

IDK... I know none of this matters, but just my opinion though...

I dont know this guy from Adam. I think someone said once that he hired some guy on IntenseMuscle to train him with DC training back 15 years ago and it didnt go well. Its been so long but there was a few guys I let train people on IntenseMuscle because they knew my methods well. I remember one guy from Texas told me about a trainee he had named Leo that just complained and complained, and was like the worst trainee ever....didnt do anything right, didnt follow directions....again its got to be about 15 years.....same guy? Maybe heck if i know. Besides that I cannot remember one interaction with the guy. Whats sad is he is trying to make his claim to fame i guess by shit talking people. Oh well. Also he must skim stuff because he doesnt read stuff thoroughly. He will say I was Fouad's coach (not at all), he will say i advised Fouad to take a bunch of supplements for blood pressure that all you guys know and I have explained a million times are for other things (citrus bergamot/Astragalus/etc etc) not having anything to do with blood pressure but I proposed to Fouad because i saw his bloodwork and asked him some question that i didnt like the answers to....Ive explained it too many times to count and its even explained in the first comment on Fouads blood pressure video. That guy just skims over all that information obviously and keeps saying the same things. How are you educated if you just skim over the pertinent information in detail?

Listen im just going to say this straight on out. Im not a drug pusher....If anyone on this thread wants to take bodybuilding drugs and then take more freaking pharmaceuticals to counter the side effects of those bodybuilding drugs you are taking ....and then take more drugs to counteract the side effects of those same pharmaceuticals you are taking to stave off side effects.....you go right ahead. You go ahead and become a walking polypharmacy. Thats not how i do things. If your 26-33 years old you are in the prime of your life and you should be healthy as all hell. You should not be 26-33 years old and walking around on blood pressure meds and statins and then Ibuprofen to relieve the muscle aches that the statins give you and so on and so on. And thats what this dude pushes.....Its all about freaking drugs. Thats not the way i approach things. I feel thats the wrong way to go about things.

If a person came up to you and said "Hi im a canoeist and to be the top of the game i have to take this drug, this drug and this drug to be a good canoeist and i have to take blood pressure medicine and statins and finasteride to counteract the side effects of those canoeist drugs turning my lipids into a mudpit and making my blood pressure skyrocket".....you would look at them and think "Your a fucking idiot".......its only in bodybuilding where this is mass accepted. If you step outside for a second and look in....it really borders on complete stupidity.

So thats how i approach things whether anyone in this forum, or this dude with a podcast, or anyone else likes it or not. I dont push drugs! I take the least path of resistance and that is this approach
1) Remove the factor that is causing the problem. Remove the anadrol. Remove the drug or root cause of the problem. Either skip or replace with a better viable option.
2) Fix things as best you can with diet and supplements first. Dont go right to side effect drugs! Fix the problem with your diet and fix the problem with nutritional supplements and see where you are with citrus bergamot and other things that skewer the lipid profile favorably without the pharm drug side effects...and see where you are
3) Then and only then if those dont fix the problem then you do what you have to do because its a genetic problem or something that isnt rectifying itself and you go to a doctor who is proficient in this area and fix the problem

But if you guys think walking around in your 20's and 30's (when you should be the healthiest of your life) on blood pressure meds, statins, SSRI's, and god knows what other drugs you feel 26 year olds should be on......is completely normal..... you have brainwashed yourself on this bodybuilding lifestyle. it aint worth all that for a 5 dollar trophy or the quest for another 1/4 inch on your arms.....

If you had a 28 friend with a sedentary lifestyle who came to you and said he is on "statins/blood pressure meds/and other drugs"......the first thing you would say to him would be "Dude you are not supposed to be on those things at 28, here lets plot a path to get you healthy and off those things"

But not in bodybuilding its looked at completely normal to get on all these pharmaceuticals to counteract pharmaceuticals......and also completely normal to champion and follow guys who push drugs on people to fix these problems (again see 1, 2, 3 up above)

Not my way of doing things.

 

[KillerStack]

2) Fix things as best you can with diet and supplements first. Dont go right to side effect drugs! Fix the problem with your diet and fix the problem with nutritional supplements and see where you are with citrus bergamot and other things that skewer the lipid profile favorably without the pharm drug side effects...and see where you are

Dante, don't think of this as an attack, this is just a somewhat different view for debate.
My thought process is this: if a "supplement" works for whatever health issue it's for all intents and purposes a drug. As you know, most pharmaceuticals have their natural counterparts in nature in their "natural" form.
Pharmas are often actually developed to reduce side effects and to make the drug more specific compared to the natural counterpart. For example, there was a thread here on using Kanna for EQ anxiety due to its effects on serotonin etc. What's the difference between using that and using an SSRI in principle? Just because something is natural doesn't necessarily make it safer.
Or is ephedra necessarily safer than ephedrine or even clenbuterol? Not necessarily, the herb might be more "dirty" as it has many constituents with different effects. Same with Yohimbine HCl vs Yohimbe bark. The herb might have more sides. Would testosterone extracted from sheep testicles be safer than synthetic anabolics? Or is HCG from women's piss safer than ultra pure synthetic recombinant HCG? And so on.

People have this, in my opinion, silly resistance to synthetic drugs vs natural drugs. I think it comes from the "drugs are bad mmkay" indoctrination kids used to get.
Natural is sometimes inferior and more dangerous.

Astragalus is probably "safe" but we don't know as much about it as opposed to various pharmas. What's the exact mechanism? Is it really protecting or just masking things? We don't know.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante, don't think of this as an attack, this is just a somewhat different view for debate.
My thought process is this: if a "supplement" works for whatever health issue it's for all intents and purposes a drug. As you know, most pharmaceuticals have their natural counterparts in nature in their "natural" form.
Pharmas are often actually developed to reduce side effects and to make the drug more specific compared to the natural counterpart. For example, there was a thread here on using Kanna for EQ anxiety due to its effects on serotonin etc. What's the difference between using that and using an SSRI in principle? Just because something is natural doesn't necessarily make it safer.
Or is ephedra necessarily safer than ephedrine or even clenbuterol? Not necessarily, the herb might be more "dirty" as it has many constituents with different effects. Same with Yohimbine HCl vs Yohimbe bark. The herb might have more sides. Would testosterone extracted from sheep testicles be safer than synthetic anabolics? Or is HCG from women's piss safer than ultra pure synthetic recombinant HCG? And so on.

People have this, in my opinion, silly resistance to synthetic drugs vs natural drugs. I think it comes from the "drugs are bad mmkay" indoctrination kids used to get.
Natural is sometimes inferior and more dangerous.

Astragalus is probably "safe" but we don't know as much about it as opposed to various pharmas. What's the exact mechanism? Is it really protecting or just masking things? We don't know.

But your talking about things that are ultra rare/ isolated and under a microscope...and most of those things you are talking above about are performance enhancing (ephedra/yohimbe) rather than therapeutic. I have not studied Kanna at any great length but there are a host of problems with man made SSRI's.....a quick glance at Kanna doesnt seem to show those extreme side effects. This all comes down to opinion to be honest....and in my opinion if its at all possible to fix problems with diet and things derived from nature, Id rather go that route. ESPECIALLY when i see a natural compound that does things outside of what I try to use it for (kidneys) such as Astragalus with telomerase activation and telomere lengthening/repair. My past experience has been when you come across a compound like that which repairs certain systems in the human body, its a godsend toward other health factors in the body and virtually never detrimental. Citrus Bergamot lowers LDL / Trigs and slightly raises HDL and it also lowers resting blood sugar and has been shown to recede existing plaque in the human body. Again its so rare to have a compound like that which does multiple positive things in the human body ever be detrimental. Ive seen enough people use astragalus now and get themselves clear out of danger that I have an opinion about it. I know how things go with people with pretty severe kidney disease. It never goes well and time happens and they recede and recede and the inevitable happens (dialysis and waiting list for a kidney transplant). Ive seen so many people now get on astragalus at a hefty dose and get themselves out of trouble. If it was a facade only, time would take over and they would go into dialysis like everyone else....but virtually none of them do (except the ones that are way too far gone to come back from). I take that as evidence that obviously this compound is very beneficial.

Heres the thing. I dont sell 99% of the things i talk about to repair or maintain peoples health. It has no benefit to me at all monetarily. I just take great offense to people screwing up their health and feel its my obligation to help if i can. Anyone can do what they want to do. I just feel making the first option "take these drugs to counteract those drugs" is just a bad way of looking at things. I have a differing opinion than you on (as a whole) nutritional supplements have a much better safety profile than man made drugs. Are they less powerful? Yes in the majority of cases they are....and thats where i resort to #3 above..."you got to do what you got to do if removing the problem/fixing diet/supplementing with the right compounds..doesnt fix the health marker that is off"....I totally agree with that concept. I am just not a drugs first guy.....if a guy is 155/96 with hdl at 12 / LDL and Trigs way into the 200's, I think he would be much better served to remove the 2 anadrol per day and the 800mg of tren a week which is the root of the problem and fix things than just say "get on a statin" especially if clean he would have normal blood pressure and completely normal lipids.

 

[KillerStack]

But your talking about things that are ultra rare/ isolated and under a microscope...and most of those things you are talking above about are performance enhancing (ephedra/yohimbe) rather than therapeutic. I have not studied Kanna at any great length but there are a host of problems with man made SSRI's.....a quick glance at Kanna doesnt seem to show those extreme side effects. This all comes down to opinion to be honest....and in my opinion if its at all possible to fix problems with diet and things derived from nature, Id rather go that route. ESPECIALLY when i see a natural compound that does things outside of what I try to use it for (kidneys) such as Astragalus with telomerase activation and telomere lengthening/repair. My past experience has been when you come across a compound like that which repairs certain systems in the human body, its a godsend toward other health factors in the body and virtually never detrimental. Citrus Bergamot lowers LDL / Trigs and slightly raises HDL and it also lowers resting blood sugar and has been shown to recede existing plaque in the human body. Again its so rare to have a compound like that which does multiple positive things in the human body ever be detrimental. Ive seen enough people use astragalus now and get themselves clear out of danger that I have an opinion about it. I know how things go with people with pretty severe kidney disease. It never goes well and time happens and they recede and recede and the inevitable happens (dialysis and waiting list for a kidney transplant). Ive seen so many people now get on astragalus at a hefty dose and get themselves out of trouble. If it was a facade only, time would take over and they would go into dialysis like everyone else....but virtually none of them do (except the ones that are way too far gone to come back from). I take that as evidence that obviously this compound is very beneficial.

Heres the thing. I dont sell 99% of the things i talk about to repair or maintain peoples health. It has no benefit to me at all monetarily. I just take great offense to people screwing up their health and feel its my obligation to help if i can. Anyone can do what they want to do. I just feel making the first option "take these drugs to counteract those drugs" is just a bad way of looking at things. I have a differing opinion than you on (as a whole) nutritional supplements have a much better safety profile than man made drugs. Are they less powerful? Yes in the majority of cases they are....and thats where i resort to #3 above..."you got to do what you got to do if removing the problem/fixing diet/supplementing with the right compounds..doesnt fix the health marker that is off"....I totally agree with that concept. I am just not a drugs first guy.....if a guy is 155/96 with hdl at 12 / LDL and Trigs way into the 200's, I think he would be much better served to remove the 2 anadrol per day and the 800mg of tren a week which is the root of the problem and fix things than just say "get on a statin" especially if clean he would have normal blood pressure and completely normal lipids.

If someone is having sides then the logical thing is to remove the offending factors/ compounds as a first step. But bodybuilders are going to do drugs regardless, so I think Leo has a point in saying that's illogical to be afraid of taking an ARB as an example. Or a beta-blocker or Metformin to counter high BG or an SSRI to protect the brain or regulate mood. If guys like Fouad or Nasser or Wheeler had used some of these drugs they might have been better off.

The problem with nutitional supplements is that they're not regulated and herbs can vary from batch to batch. Like with Astragalus, some brands don't work, as you've said, and no one knows why. It's unknown how Astragalus works. Is it astragaloside IV or another astragaloside that is responsible for the effects or is it something else in the herb? Herbs and nutritional supplements aren't totally innocuous. Some have toxic effects past a certain dose and many herbs have been implicated in liver damage, green tea for example. Some antioxidants become prooxidants past a certain dose and so on.

 

[Elvia1023]

I dont know this guy from Adam...

Excuse me but this is long but I wanted cover a few things. Your post highlights one of his issues. I am on promuscle daily and read most of the threads and I have also seen many of his videos so I know all the details. We haven't always got on but I am neutral on any subject regardless who is involved (even family members etc). Everything he attacked you on recently was completely unfounded. I don't know if he done that intentionally because of his dislike for you or if it was simply because he blitzed through all the information and read it completely wrong. You have explained before all the supps you recommended to Fouad were for various issues and not just blood pressure. That was evident from the list so for him to go on attack about how they are stupid for blood pressure was just completely wrong. Moreover, all the supps mentioned were solid supplements with data to back them up.

He also attacks you over the fact you recommend extreme stretching and he states there is no clinical evidence that it does anything and you are full on nonsense. You have posted studies before but forgetting about studies I think he is flat out wrong about that as well. I would like to think I have a good training brain and to me it's just common sense that stretching under load is beneficial for a variety of things. I wouldn't care if there were no studies it definitely helps and whilst it may not be for everyone I think it works.

I like Leo but I definitely don't agree with certain things he does. Now he states he doesn't care about viewers and he is just being honest but I think his actions tell otherwise. He seems to be calling out a new person every week so it's obviously to gain attention so I understand why many don't like him. If you put out informative content (with no prior rep) you will gain a quality audience but it will be very small. If you mention someone like Greg Doucette you are going to get noticed more in the fitness you-tube world. Granted some of the people he calls out probably deserve it (Ameen Alai, Greg Doucette etc) but still I don't like the approach. I am all for having a laugh but if he done that and kept his vids informative he would probably be appreciated more by real bodybuilders/weightlifters and not just idiots after drama on social media.

Regarding the rest of your post I completely agree and I think most of that is just common sense. Although KS brings up some very good points. If someone is on tren and it's giving them severe anxiety they should just stop it. If their liver is messed up from 200mg adrol they should just stop it and if they use it again keep the dose/duration sensible. Diet and training are fundamental. All just very obvious things but many don't do it and they blast away and live through side effects and never get blood work or check bp etc. I am a big fan of supplements and I use many myself but I also think KS is spot on. You have guys taking 40 different herbal supps but the thought of taking a statin or bp med is crazy to them. I think common sense just needs to be used. You have to weigh up the pro's and con's in every situation.

It is very strange to have young guys taking various medications. Although it's also not normal to have younger people at 260 pounds and lean. Bodybuilding is not healthy so if the damage can be reduced by taking supps or drugs then surely that is only a good thing. That doesn't mean taking the kitchen sink every time you have an issue either. I always look to diet and supps first and have done that for years. Although some pharm drugs can be much more effective and still safe and they may even cost a fraction which can be a big factor for some people. I am all for taking garlic and carditone etc for blood pressure. The later can give some people bad side effects so if taking an ACE/ARB inhibitor can help someone with bp/kidney issues I am all for it. People should try to be as healthy as possible and I don't agree with throwing drugs at every issue and you look towards diet and training/cardio first.

Take me for example. I eat good and whilst I like to experiment with various things I am far from reckless. I have taken all the supplements over the years. My blood tests are always great apart from cholesterol. I used nutrition and supps to keep things as good as possible. Granted I was always a fan of oral AAS and it doesn't matter how much citrus bergamot etc I take on 40mg avar it's going to destroy my HDL. Although even when I am off orals for long periods my HDL is never high but everything else is fine. So on this new blast (no orals) I figured try a statin and see what difference it can make. Granted I take vitamin d and ubiquinol with the statin to help combat any side effects. It's only been 1 month but so far no side effects whatsoever and I feel really good. I take an SSRI but that has nothing to do with gear and anxiety runs in my family and it helps me massively whilst giving me no side effects so I see no issue using that. I know you understand all of that but you just don't agree with always looking towards drugs to fix every problem and I definitely agree.

There are guys walking around with high bp for years and we have all heard the many stories of bodybuilders having kidney issues in the 30's, 40's and 50's etc. In some cases they may have been fine taking 1-2 tabs per day. For many people the best option might be an ACE/ARB inhibitor instead of 5 different herbal supplements. I do like carditone but I think the likes of telmisartan or valsartan can be extremely useful. The same for berberine and metformin. I think everyone just needs to judge things on an individual basis. If you experience minor-moderate changes then herbal supps can help neutralize damage. However, in some cases if your problem is genetic and over time becomes more severe something "stronger" may need to be used.

 

[KillerStack]

Excuse me but this is long but I wanted cover a few things. Your post highlights one of his issues. I am on promuscle daily and read most of the threads and I have also seen many of his videos so I know all the details. We haven't always got on but I am neutral on any subject regardless who is involved (even family members etc). Everything he attacked you on recently was completely unfounded. I don't know if he done that intentionally because of his dislike for you or if it was simply because he blitzed through all the information and read it completely wrong. You have explained before all the supps you recommended to Fouad were for various issues and not just blood pressure. That was evident from the list so for him to go on attack about how they are stupid for blood pressure was just completely wrong. Moreover, all the supps mentioned were solid supplements with data to back them up.

He also attacks you over the fact you recommend extreme stretching and he states there is no clinical evidence that it does anything and you are full on nonsense. You have posted studies before but forgetting about studies I think he is flat out wrong about that as well. I would like to think I have a good training brain and to me it's just common sense that stretching under load is beneficial for a variety of things. I wouldn't care if there were no studies it definitely helps and whilst it may not be for everyone I think it works.

I like Leo but I definitely don't agree with certain things he does. Now he states he doesn't care about viewers and he is just being honest but I think his actions tell otherwise. He seems to be calling out a new person every week so it's obviously to gain attention so I understand why many don't like him. If you put out informative content (with no prior rep) you will gain a quality audience but it will be very small. If you mention someone like Greg Doucette you are going to get noticed more in the fitness you-tube world. Granted some of the people he calls out probably deserve it (Ameen Alai, Greg Doucette etc) but still I don't like the approach. I am all for having a laugh but if he done that and kept his vids informative he would probably be appreciated more by real bodybuilders/weightlifters and not just idiots after drama on social media.

Regarding the rest of your post I completely agree and I think most of that is just common sense. Although KS brings up some very good points. If someone is on tren and it's giving them severe anxiety they should just stop it. If their liver is messed up from 200mg adrol they should just stop it and if they use it again keep the dose/duration sensible. Diet and training are fundamental. All just very obvious things but many don't do it and they blast away and live through side effects and never get blood work or check bp etc. I am a big fan of supplements and I use many myself but I also think KS is spot on. You have guys taking 40 different herbal supps but the thought of taking a statin or bp med is crazy to them. I think common sense just needs to be used. You have to weigh up the pro's and con's in every situation.

It is very strange to have young guys taking various medications. Although it's also not normal to have younger people at 260 pounds and lean. Bodybuilding is not healthy so if the damage can be reduced by taking supps or drugs then surely that is only a good thing. That doesn't mean taking the kitchen sink every time you have an issue either. I always look to diet and supps first and have done that for years. Although some pharm drugs can be much more effective and still safe and they may even cost a fraction which can be a big factor for some people. I am all for taking garlic and carditone etc for blood pressure. The later can give some people bad side effects so if taking an ACE/ARB inhibitor can help someone with bp/kidney issues I am all for it. People should try to be as healthy as possible and I don't agree with throwing drugs at every issue and you look towards diet and training/cardio first.

Take me for example. I eat good and whilst I like to experiment with various things I am far from reckless. I have taken all the supplements over the years. My blood tests are always great apart from cholesterol. I used nutrition and supps to keep things as good as possible. Granted I was always a fan of oral AAS and it doesn't matter how much citrus bergamot etc I take on 40mg avar it's going to destroy my HDL. Although even when I am off orals for long periods my HDL is never high but everything else is fine. So on this new blast (no orals) I figured try a statin and see what difference it can make. Granted I take vitamin d and ubiquinol with the statin to help combat any side effects. It's only been 1 month but so far no side effects whatsoever and I feel really good. I take an SSRI but that has nothing to do with gear and anxiety runs in my family and it helps me massively whilst giving me no side effects so I see no issue using that. I know you understand all of that but you just don't agree with always looking towards drugs to fix every problem and I definitely agree.

There are guys walking around with high bp for years and we have all heard the many stories of bodybuilders having kidney issues in the 30's, 40's and 50's etc. In some cases they may have been fine taking 1-2 tabs per day. For many people the best option might be an ACE/ARB inhibitor instead of 5 different herbal supplements. I do like carditone but I think the likes of telmisartan or valsartan can be extremely useful. The same for berberine and metformin. I think everyone just needs to judge things on an individual basis. If you experience minor-moderate changes then herbal supps can help neutralize damage. However, in some cases if your problem is genetic and over time becomes more severe something "stronger" may need to be used.

Regarding Carditone, as you say many get sides from it. Supposedly it's mainly the Rauwolfia that is responsible for the BP lowering effect. It is a drug for all intents and purposes, especially considering how potent it is and the sides of bad hypotension and generally queasy feeling many get. I used the Himalaya Serpina and got lots of sides. There's even possibly neurological effects that might be concerning. But here's the thing, it's in a proprietary blend, is it not? Guys are taking a drug and they don't even know the dosage they are using. And is every lot tested to make sure the doses are uniform at least? Would we take any other drugs in proprietary blends? I think not.
I never got any sides from ARBs or beta-blockers. Not saying they aren't there but it's interesting.

So basically, how can we say "natural" is always safer than man-made? I don't think we can. Is berberine always safer and better than metformin? I don't think we can say that. We can't even be sure if it's properly dosed or even the right compound sometimes when bought as a supplement, whereas with metformin we can be much more sure. We also have an enormous amount of data with metformin but fairly little with berberine.

Here is one supplement formulator talking about natural vs synthetic. This is elementary but many haven't thought about these things.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Herbs generally are much more dirty whereas drugs are cleaner, by design. Often the drug counterparts are specifically designed to reduce sides.

 

[Dugbet]

Some have toxic effects past a certain dose and many herbs have been implicated in liver damage, green tea for example.

That's a giant and total bullshit

 

[KillerStack]

That's a giant and total bullshit

Please elaborate. As you know, everything can be toxic, even water. I'm talking about high potency extracts in supplements potentially being harmful. It's exactly like with drugs, something like acetaminophen is safe up to a point, above that liver failure occurs. There are a lot of natural herbs that can be toxic. Kava Kava, or parts of the plant can be toxic (banned in many countries). There was some herb in the fat burner Oxy-Elite where some users needed liver transplants. Same with Usnic Acid which Palumbo and others sold.

In the EU they have set a limit of of 800mg EGCG from green tea extracts as the upper limit due to liver concerns.

Certain antioxidants like NAC could theoretically, based on animal experiments, increase liver toxicity from alcohol. Certain B-Vitamins can potentially increase the incidence of lung cancer in smokers. Antioxidants in general might increase mortality according to research.

The risks might increase if you combine high doses of many different herbs, especially in combination with drugs. We just don't know.
If a herb "works" it's a drug anyway, what would the difference be anyway? Is not opium a drug or cocaine from coca leaf or aspirin from white willow bark? Does not Red Yeast Rice contain those dreaded statins?

"The 'Went' strain of Monascus purpureus (purpureus = dark red in Latin), when properly fermented and processed, will yield a dried red yeast rice powder that is approximately 0.4% monacolins, of which roughly half will be monacolin K. The two isolations, documentations and patent applications occurred months apart.[4] Lovastatin became the patented, prescription drug Mevacor.[5] Red yeast rice went on to become a non-prescription dietary supplement in the United States and other countries. In 1998, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) initiated action to ban a dietary supplement containing red yeast rice extract. The FDA position was that red yeast rice products that contain monacolin K are identical to a prescription drug and, thus, subject to regulation as a drug. The U.S. District Court in Utah ruled in favor of allowing the product to be sold without restriction. This decision was reversed on appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals in 2001.[6]"

 

[Dugbet]

No, no, it is you who must show liver problems by drinking green tea. You were talking about green tea, not green tea extracts or supplements, etc...

It is bullshit to say that green tea is dangerous, or water, nobody is drinking tons galons of green tea or water.

The coca leaf is much safer than synthetic cocaine, because processed drugs are processed to make them more effective, and therefore more addictive.

For thousands of years man consumed coca leaves, ephedra leaves, etc ... there were no drug addiction epidemics in any society, nor did you have psychiatric centers to treat addicts.

Nor will I say that consuming these herbs is safe, necessary, or harmless. But it is that green tea has nothing to do with these herbs much more stimulating and therefore, more dangerous.

 

[KillerStack]

No, no, it is you who must show liver problems by drinking green tea. You were talking about green tea, not green tea extracts or supplements, etc...

Well I meant supplemental extracts mainly, they are called green tea too even if not brewed into actual tea.





Actual herbs can be addicting and harmful too. Kratom? Opium is addicting too even if not used to manufacture heroin. Remember what happened in China.

But some will say, well I'm not talking about those herbs, they are drugs/PEDs, I'm instead talking about these particular ones that are healthy. But it still comes back to the natural vs synthetic divide that is misguided imo. Natural isn't necessarily better or safer, might just be the opposite.

 

[Dugbet]

There are always exceptions, but as a general rule, the natural suplements or herbs is healthier and/or less harmful. Of course, it is also less effective. That's why people use test injections instead tribulus or some similar shit.

Drug epidemics depend on various factors, especially socio-economic, but processed substances are more addictive because they are more concentrated and because the processor (an illegal dealer or pharmaceutical company) intends to sell more and generate more customers, that is, more addicts.

 

[Ironman 580]

How the fuck did this thread turn to GREEN TEA???unreal

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Killerstack you keep lumping all nutritional supplements into one big category without separation. I have said on this board many times that I feel 95 (heck maybe its 98%) of supplements I dont find viable. You guys know my spiel - I usually champion a group of about 4-8 key supplements for health that I feel are very worthy. Again that means I feel 95% of them are unworthy. But if you are going to make a generalization of nutritional supplements on a whole, from numbers I have seen....158 million people in the USA use nutritional supplements and 23000 went to the emergency room. I think it was 300 plus million have prescriptions for drugs and over 2 million went to the emergency room from some stats Ive seen. So if you look at it as a whole, on a safety aspect drugs really are lacking. Is that a true picture of what is happening? No i dont think so...because we are not going into specific drugs and specific supplements here. So I dont think weu can look at it all in a general sense of safety.

Elvia i agree with you. If a drug has to be taken it has to be taken. Carditone i dont look at as a supplement. I look at that as a drug. The principle reasons that I tell people to do carditone is the following
1) Bodybuilders will not go to the doctor. They will go years and years brainwashing themselves that nothing is wrong so they dont ever have to hear any bad news and continue on with this bodybuilding lifestyle with no interruption. What they will do is get a home blood pressure monitor and what they will do is order something on amazon. So I look at things like this......its a pick your poison. Is it better to hide your head in the sand and wake up 3-5 years later (living with high blood pressure) and ruining your kidneys and heart because you wont go to the doctor? Or is it better (because you refuse to do anything about it) to go to Amazon and take Carditone to get that blood pressure down into normal ranges? I think its better to go the Carditone route than go no route at all. This is the chief reason I wish "bodybuilding friendly" doctors would start popping up all over the place. There is a niche to be filled here because no doubt there is a huge stigma that has proven out when a bodybuilder goes to a doctor to get help. He gets the riot act and shamed....and its the last thing he wants to deal with...he just wants help without being lectured.

Elvia i dont want to be mistaken that I an totally against drugs. I am against the current mindset i see in bodybuilding which is "hey dude just jump on this and this and this drug to counteract the damage you are causing yourself with those bodybuilding drugs"....I personally think that is a mindset driven by vanity and refusal to actually deal with the cause of the problem. But again if culprit is removed, diet doesnt fix it, certain supplements that are worthy dont fix it, I am all for the pharmaceutical route if it means it betters ones health.

 

[KillerStack]

How the fuck did this thread turn to GREEN TEA???unreal

It may seem ridiculous to you but this thread talks about a video by Trigili and Leo Rex and the thread evolved into discussing Leo's bashing of Dante for recommending herbs and supplements to treat Fouad's medical issues. Using supplements and/or drugs for treatment or preventative measures is something that's a very popular topic here.
If natural compounds are inherently better or safer than man-made drugs is a perfectly valid point of discussion in my opinion.
What's "unreal" about it?

I'm not against natural herbs or supplements, just to be clear. I've used and use astragalus and tons of other "natural" supps too. I just think herbs can theoretically be unsafe in certain circumstances as well as inferior to drugs. I think it's a childish view to say, "a young guy should not be taking a bunch drugs designed for old decrepit people"... we should use the best tool for the job. Others disagree and that's fine.

Killerstack you keep lumping all nutritional supplements into one big category without separation. I have said on this board many times that I feel 95 (heck maybe its 98%) of supplements I dont find viable. You guys know my spiel - I usually champion a group of about 4-8 key supplements for health that I feel are very worthy. Again that means I feel 95% of them are unworthy. But if you are going to make a generalization of nutritional supplements on a whole, from numbers I have seen....158 million people in the USA use nutritional supplements and 23000 went to the emergency room. I think it was 300 plus million have prescriptions for drugs and over 2 million went to the emergency room from some stats Ive seen. So if you look at it as a whole, on a safety aspect drugs really are lacking. Is that a true picture of what is happening? No i dont think so...because we are not going into specific drugs and specific supplements here. So I dont think weu can look at it all in a general sense of safety.

Elvia i agree with you. If a drug has to be taken it has to be taken. Carditone i dont look at as a supplement. I look at that as a drug. The principle reasons that I tell people to do carditone is the following
1) Bodybuilders will not go to the doctor. They will go years and years brainwashing themselves that nothing is wrong so they dont ever have to hear any bad news and continue on with this bodybuilding lifestyle with no interruption. What they will do is get a home blood pressure monitor and what they will do is order something on amazon. So I look at things like this......its a pick your poison. Is it better to hide your head in the sand and wake up 3-5 years later (living with high blood pressure) and ruining your kidneys and heart because you wont go to the doctor? Or is it better (because you refuse to do anything about it) to go to Amazon and take Carditone to get that blood pressure down into normal ranges? I think its better to go the Carditone route than go no route at all. This is the chief reason I wish "bodybuilding friendly" doctors would start popping up all over the place. There is a niche to be filled here because no doubt there is a huge stigma that has proven out when a bodybuilder goes to a doctor to get help. He gets the riot act and shamed....and its the last thing he wants to deal with...he just wants help without being lectured.

Elvia i dont want to be mistaken that I an totally against drugs. I am against the current mindset i see in bodybuilding which is "hey dude just jump on this and this and this drug to counteract the damage you are causing yourself with those bodybuilding drugs"....I personally think that is a mindset driven by vanity and refusal to actually deal with the cause of the problem. But again if culprit is removed, diet doesnt fix it, certain supplements that are worthy dont fix it, I am all for the pharmaceutical route if it means it betters ones health.

I think we agree on a lot of things. This is a discussion of nuance, small disagreements on certain aspects.

 

[Elvia1023]

That's a giant and total bullshit

He is not stating no one shouldn't use green tea or that it's very dangerous. I think me and Dante are completely on the same page and I have agreed with everything he has posted. KS and Dante are as well but there are some minor disagreements on certain aspects as KS just posted but KS is just coming at things from a different angle. He said himself he uses loads of supps and he knows they are beneficial. He is not stating don't use supplements and they are all dangerous. I think the main difference between the 2 is simply what stage do you turn to pharm drugs in the process of fixing a current/potential health issue. He is spot on stating many also assume everything herbal is great for you because it's "natural" but that isn't the case in every situation.

Incidentally I actually know of someone (friend of friend) who died drinking too much water (under the influence of e but the water killed them) but that doesn't mean I am stating water is dangerous. That's the point KS was probably trying to make I just come out with the most extreme example. Nothing could be more healthy than water but he was just talking about extremes. Certain supps taken at even standard doses could cause an imbalance in someone and not be healthy for them. Others can become somewhat toxic (vitamin d for example) above certain doses and in certain people. Green tea is a great supplement/aid with many uses. I am also in agreement with him at the same time. I go back to my point about guys taking 40+ supps per day and the thought of an ACE/ARB inhibitor is crazy to them. I am not stating any of those 40 supps are damaging but the combination of everything could be causing imbalances they don't understand.

At the end of the day we all just want to be as healthy as possible. Some of us weigh a lot so that goes against health. Many of us take AAS through the year so that does the same. I posted the video because inflammation should be a primary concern of everyone on this forum and he goes through certain aids (drugs and supps) that can be beneficial. As Dante and KS have both posted it's better to take something than nothing if you have a health issue and they (and me) are just disagreeing with the order those aids may be added.

 

[goback2013]

Yes he never says he was big he just means for him. He also tells people that and how he knows nothing about bodybuilding. He is a wealth of knowledge regarding drugs and supplements for cognitive and general health.

Palumbo calls Leo this eras Dan Duchaine

 

[Bio]

El no offense but I didn't like the video in this thread and didn't come away with a positive view of this individual. However, I am open minded and found a video that I am finding interesting (I'm half way through it)...

I will say, that I don't like the fact that he has apparently attacked Dante. I haven't actually seen/heard that out of him yet. Since I'm only halfway through the video I just posted, if he says it there I haven't seen it yet.

 

[Elvia1023]

El no offense but I didn't like the video in this thread and didn't come away with a positive view of this individual. However, I am open minded and found a video that I am finding interesting (I'm half way through it)...

I will say, that I don't like the fact that he has apparently attacked Dante. I haven't actually seen/heard that out of him yet. Since I'm only halfway through the video I just posted, if he says it there I haven't seen it yet.

I would never take offense. I have posted a few of his videos over the last few months and I think he is a good source of information. I watched the video you posted a few weeks ago and it's informative like many of his others. Like everyone he does some great ones and some not so good ones so it's worth checking out any that are done on subjects you may be interested in. I especially like the ones he does on serotonin and SSRI's. I know this stuff so it's very rare I am impressed by anyone on you-tube and usually just watch them for entertainment but he definitely stands out. Many may dislike him for various reasons but still I think he can be very informative.