How much of an advantage does taking taking testosterone give you over being natural?

[B-Trotter]

I've read a lot lately people saying that test is overrated. Do you guys think that it is overrated?

Say some identical twins trained bodybuilding, one too 500mg test for 52 weeks and the other stayed natural, would the enhanced guy be miles ahead in terms of progress?

Strength on test has always come slow for me, and without strength gain, there's little to no muscle gain, right? (Assuming a bodybuilding set/rep scheme)

I'm thinking perhaps there's something in this 'test being overrated' thing.

 

[painforpleasure]

the average person using steroids will generally get much better results in terms of building muscle and improving performance than someone who is natural and not using anything (especially with all else being equal). Test is overrated?? . One of the dumbest things I have heard

 

[painforpleasure]

here is a random study, there are thousands out there :

The Study

This 10 week study took a group of 43 men of normal body weight between the ages of 19 and 40 who all had some degree of weight training experience. These men were then split up into 4 different groups:

Group 1 did NOT do any form of exercise, and did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing no weight training.)
Group 2 did NOT do any form of exercise, but they received weekly injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate. (Drug users doing no weight training.)
Group 3 DID exercise, but they did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing weight training.)
Group 4 DID exercise, and they also received weekly injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate. (Drug users doing weight training.)
All of their diets (calorie intake, protein intake, nutrient intake, etc.) were standardized according to each person’s body weight, recorded, verified and adjusted when needed. The 2 groups who WERE weight training (groups 3 and 4) followed the same supervised workouts each week.

Meaning, with the exception of the fact that some groups were or were not weight training, and some were or were not using drugs… everything else (diet and training) was equal and even.

The Results

So… guess what happened?

Group 1 (no exercise, natural) experienced no significant changes. No surprise there.
Group 2 (no exercise, drug use) was able to build about 7 pounds of muscle. That’s not a typo. The group receiving testosterone injections and NOT working out at all gained 7 pounds of muscle.
Group 3 (exercise, natural) was able to build about 4 pounds of muscle.
Group 4 (exercise, drug use) was able to build about 13 pounds of muscle.
So What Does This Study Show Us?

Well, for starters, if you are natural and not doing any form of weight training, your muscle building results will suck. But we all knew that already.

Second, the muscle building effects of steroids are pretty F-ing significant. Despite using identical workout routines and diets, the guys who were also receiving testosterone injections gained over 3 TIMES as much muscle as the natural guys in the same period of time. The average difference was 13lbs gained to just 4lbs gained.

And third… here’s the most insane part of all. The group getting the testosterone injections and NOT doing any form of weight training whatsoever still gained significantly more muscle than the natural guys who WERE weight training. The difference was 7lbs gained to 4lbs gained.

Let me repeat that again just in case it didn’t sink in. Guys using drugs and doing NOTHING built more muscle than the natural guys who were weight training 3 times per week. How crazy is that?

I know my article about how much muscle you can gain mentions steroid/drug use as one of the main factors that influence a person’s rate and limit of muscle growth, but did you think the effects would be THIS significant? No? Well… surprise! They are.

 

[Drift Wood]

It's hard to believe that steroid uses without training gained 7lbs of muscle in just 10 weeks.

I uses a decent amount of gear and bust my ass and I don't gain 7lbs of lean mass in 10 weeks... make me wonder if I'm doing something wrong... then again, I believe that after years and years of gear use our gains slow... at lest that's what I've been telling myself...

 

[p-lethal]

i remember my first cycle 15 years ago i got big FAST! I "knew" I was on and walking around alpha. and i knew jack about diet and i know i was not housing down a ton of food. i just GREW to the point where my entire body was covered in stretch marks and i was still a lean college boy.

Then I took a 15 year break and did another cycle. i would have thought i would respond like i did my first time. mid 30's, above average test levels, IGF-1 above average and my results were no where near (nor how I felt) like the first time. however, what i took back then was all pharma

 

[B-Trotter]

It just seems that having an influx of exogenous test does little for me. I for sure gain weight but look soft and puffy looking in the process: oestrogen accounted for with the use of AIs such as aromasin/arimidex, too.

Perhaps the raws I have are underdosed, I don't know. I'd love to stick to test only cycles, but the strength/muscle gain is as slow as going natural it seems.

 

[MonkeyBoy]

. One of the dumbest things I have heard

Agreed

 

[muscle_n_blood]

My first test cycle consisted of 300 mg sustenon/week. I almost had to quit work. I didn't want to do anything but train, eat, and have sex. I gained more strength than I did muscle, but it was significant. We all respond differently to the various compounds, be they AAS or otherwise.... for example, lots of people get great gains from deca. I might as well eat gummi bears, and my joints are toast when I cone off. I don't blow up on anadrol or dianabol as much as some, but I get pretty good gains and little side effects.
Test is number one, for me. Anything else just compliments it. I've run a lot of stuff as a stand alone without test and it just wasn't worth much.

 

[Spartacus72BC]

Test

From my experience after training natty for 13 years my first cycle was test only and my strength and size blew up in a few weeks. Retained a lot of the gains and my body was permanently changed for the better.

 

[Skins]

I've read a lot lately people saying that test is overrated. Do you guys think that it is overrated?



Say some identical twins trained bodybuilding, one too 500mg test for 52 weeks and the other stayed natural, would the enhanced guy be miles ahead in terms of progress?



Strength on test has always come slow for me, and without strength gain, there's little to no muscle gain, right? (Assuming a bodybuilding set/rep scheme)



I'm thinking perhaps there's something in this 'test being overrated' thing.

In bold:

I get the impression that the primary reason for posting is in bold, lesser strength being the issue that leads into the results for amount of muscle built.

If so, this was (and sometimes still is) my issue. For me, I came to realize that the lack of strength was more due to weakness in the mind muscle connection as well as the central nervous system's ability to fire up. The upper chest is a good example for this, as it is a very difficult. area for the mind to focus and squeeze the muscle into action without engaging the more well used supporting muscles in the shoulder.

But to answer your question out right, you will see a higher pump value maintained by the person on cycle due to hire nitrogen retention.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dezzy]

I gain weight with testosterone. It's watery but I feel great, recovery is good. Strength and Glycogen storage in mucles isn't as good as with Orals. Whenever I get off orals I drop weight and my pumps aren't ridiculous. Still good but it's slower. You can also run it longer because it's not liver toxic. I think I will just use it to keep lethargy, increase recovery etc at a low dose.

 

[johnjuanb1]

It's hard to believe that steroid uses without training gained 7lbs of muscle in just 10 weeks.

I uses a decent amount of gear and bust my ass and I don't gain 7lbs of lean mass in 10 weeks... make me wonder if I'm doing something wrong... then again, I believe that after years and years of gear use our gains slow... at lest that's what I've been telling myself...

Muscle is primarily made up of water. When I was off gear for 5 months I weighed 190Lbs.
Wk#1: 50mg deca
Wk#2 100mg deca
Wk#3: 150mg deca
BODY WEIGHT: 218Lbs
Wk# 4, 5, and 6: No AAS
BODY WEIGHT: 210Lbs
Wk#7: 250mg sustanon
Wk#8: 250mg sustanon
BODY WEIGHT: 230Lbs

This was with no dietary change. You had better believe the brother on testosterone will destroy the natural brother.
This was when I was 30 years old.

 

[johnjuanb1]

I gain weight with testosterone. It's watery but I feel great, recovery is good. Strength and Glycogen storage in mucles isn't as good as with Orals. Whenever I get off orals I drop weight and my pumps aren't ridiculous. Still good but it's slower. You can also run it longer because it's not liver toxic. I think I will just use it to keep lethargy, increase recovery etc at a low dose.

Before I began AAS I read the Anabolic Reference Guide by Bill Phillips. Back in those days, the 90's, they taught us that testosterone was highly liver toxic. They said to exhaust all other "safe" AAS before using test. Save the test for last because nothing will ever work as well again after you move up to test. It's funny how the "truth" changes with time. Hahaha

 

[BradScott]

Say some identical twins trained bodybuilding, one too 500mg test for 52 weeks and the other stayed natural, would the enhanced guy be miles ahead in terms of progress?

Is this a serious question?

 

[Dezzy]

Before I began AAS I read the Anabolic Reference Guide by Bill Phillips. Back in those days, the 90's, they taught us that testosterone was highly liver toxic. They said to exhaust all other "safe" AAS before using test. Save the test for last because nothing will ever work as well again after you move up to test. It's funny how the "truth" changes with time. Hahaha

I would love to hear the reasoning behind how testosterone is liver toxic. Did it say why?

 

[little slice]

with steroids, less is not more.




you can make the same gains on trt doses as you can with 1g/week.




most guys these days just abuse drugs to compensate for poor training and diet habits.

 

[anarchocapitalist]

Ive used steroids on a regular basis since 1995 and over the years my cycles have evolved into testosterone only cycles. When I competing I may toss in some trenbolone and anadrol. Considering all factors ranging from size, strength, health, etc testosterone is king. Any fluid retention I have is due to my diet. Any gains or lack thereof is due to my diet.

If you are having a hard time with your diet get help from someone who has a track record of success like Shelby or Meadows.

 

[johnjuanb1]

I would love to hear the reasoning behind how testosterone is liver toxic. Did it say why?

He didn't say why. He just listed all the AAS compounds and the level of toxicity next to them. He must have been going by level of androgens. The more androgens, the greater the toxicity. The less androgens/higher anabolic to androgen ratio, the lower the toxicity.

Testosterone - highly toxic
Deca - moderate toxicity
EQ - low toxicity
Primobolan - low toxicity

 

[little slice]

He didn't say why. He just listed all the AAS compounds and the level of toxicity next to them. He must have been going by level of androgens. The more androgens, the greater the toxicity. The less androgens/higher anabolic to androgen ratio, the lower the toxicity.

Testosterone - highly toxic
Deca - moderate toxicity
EQ - low toxicity
Primobolan - low toxicity

boy I wish that were the case for orals too..

 

[devenidas]

He didn't say why. He just listed all the AAS compounds and the level of toxicity next to them. He must have been going by level of androgens. The more androgens, the greater the toxicity. The less androgens/higher anabolic to androgen ratio, the lower the toxicity.

Testosterone - highly toxic
Deca - moderate toxicity
EQ - low toxicity
Primobolan - low toxicity

JJB sorry mate what u mean highly toxic next to test ? Injectable test is safe right ? Obviously has sides and issues which comes with IM pinning blood clot etc and estro issues . I do not touch orals of any nature . i know orals r liver toxic and I don't compete just recreational bb so no business for me to do orals for health reasons. Thanks mate