I'm going to kick myself for doing this...

[MrCyp]

Please do not quote me if you don't even know who I was directing my post towards....It's like some guys don't read and process what is written before they choose to disagree with you.

Take one look at B-Boy and tell me he has elite genetics....Not likely. If you think so, maybe you don't fully comprehend what exaclty elite genetics are.

My bad, I thought you were talking about Dusty. The quote was weird anyway. It was your post but there were 2 quotes so I think thats why it ended up that way.

 

[KillerStack]

3 grams of shit a week????? Once again through assumptions and what "he said, she said" no real supported proof on these statments. I am not disagreeing with your idea that a once you remove a part of the stimulus that the same pakcage will not happen... but then again if a BBer were to take 3grams of shit a week and not train for a month what happens? Or eats 1-2 meals a day consistently what happens? Once you remove any portion of the variables that created the former package you will not have the same... But once again the focus is that Dorian must have taken more or some rediculous level of drugs in order to attain the physique he did to win his Sandows... not because Dorian lived, breathed BBing. And trained like a mad man! My question is why arnt all top level BBers 300lbs and ripped? Why is Dave Henry in he 202 class and Jay 270+? Is it cause Jay takes more? Did Ronnie take more then Dexter? Why isnt Dexter 300 lbs? Have the under 200 lbs class guys not been told the secret yet to be 300 lbs yet?




As Ive said countless time, their is nothing "natural" about BBing... from the Supplements, to the fake boobs and tan it is not a "Natural" activity. Its unnatural to look the way you do on stage thats one of the reasons people are drawn to it... and alot of times the freakier a person is the more attn is draws. I dont think anyone is claiming that BBing is enhancement free... but like much of this debate people want to focus on the amount and number of drugs the top level competitors and pros take... unfortunately due to the the sensitivty of the issue and lack of importance we cannot do a cross comparison study of the top level guys to the non-competitive gym rats to prove the drug use and level isnt the real difference between the 2 its far beyond that. I'm sure if BBers knew that if they were to take 3 grams a week and that would make them more successful on stage im sure they would.... But IMO that isnt the case; what Seperated Lee, Dorian, Ronnie from the pack is what wasnt found in a vial, or a cock tail of vials , or a truck load of vials.... It was the same things that made MJ great and other athletes great... They were made to for that and they busted their ass there!

Well, I assume Big A talks to these guys off the boards and that's it's no assumption.

I am not saying Dorian was Mr O just because he took more drugs than us, or everyone else. What I am saying is that you can't remove the drug part of the equation, nor can you compensate for the drugs with the other parts of the equation, the food, the training. Even with Dorian's elite genetics and tremendous drive and focus throughout the entire year he still needed the drugs in very liberal amounts to achieve what he did. He needed the steroids, he needed the DNP, he needed the GH, he needed those things to achieve the grainiest, leanest, most massive physique seen to that date. There had been tons of dedicated guys with insane genetics prior to him but none achieved anything close to his physique. Because training and food can't push the natural genetic limit further. No, not everyone will do what Dorian did by taking the same drugs. That's not the point. I do believe his drug use would have to have been classified as extreme.

And not every pro bodybuilder can weigh 300lbs, nor do they need to. Dave Henry and Dexter are a bit shorter which accounts for some of the weight difference. But anyone who knows bodybuilding can look at even just the faces of the top pros and see what they are doing drug-wise. It's not just a couple of cc's of testosterone. See the pics from yesterday's O press conference.

 

[KillerStack]

you know the thing about fatherly lessons though the sons don't listen. they usually go do the same screw up themselves because they just had to try it and see.

then when they are older they gives lessons. there is always a bit of hypercritical tone to it but it is usually well intended to prevent the same mistakes from happening but they usually do anyways lol

i am not going to sit here and say i am like dusty because i am not but i went from 135 to 245 at a low bodyfat within 3 years so i might know a little about gaining muscular weight. i also know a lot ,lot more know then a did back then so yes if i decided to make it a priority i don't see why i could not do any of what is discussed here. i also have trained many people myself so whatever i am saying here does have some backup in reality it is not just me giving theory.

and Gooey makes a good point about the word natural, whether or not you are on drugs or not the look is not natural , and either is what your doing, your taking everything to an extreme. so to be realistic about anything is not really in the cards in bodybuilding. if guys were being realistic you would not have the size on some of these guys you see today, they would never have dreamed that was even possible.

that is why buselmo's post is also excellent because he puts a different perspective on it that . what he says about rationalization based on your goals is true .in bodybuilding really your going to be doing things to extremes anyways whether or not it is 300 grams or 3000, once you enter this arena that is what it is period, so were just fooling ourselves in a way . i understand what he is saying in his post but i also understand risk vs reward as well. and that risk bs reward scenario is different for everyone, but you also have to live with your choices.



i was never trying to say whether or not to do drugs or not. i was just saying imagine a place without them, people would still want that extreme look and they would do what it takes to get it. they would figure out another path to get it you can be sure of it . so the way those people would be attitude wise in pushing other avenues you can have that attitude with or with out the drugs. if you use AAS then you just adding to it. think about what dante said if you had a gun to your head or a 20 million dollar reward many would magically all of sudden make gains naturally that before they said were impossible. to me its hard to disagree with that because that has also been my experience that people that have focus and dedication make some serious results happen. the kind of results that others that are not so hard working blame on drugs or genetics or some secret that they don't know about.

one other thing I am sure you would like the book muscle smoke and mirrors by randy roach. it is wealth of information and shows how bodybuilder have always pushed extremes in every direction whether it is today or 120 years ago, what seems new today really isn't in a lot of cases

Bro, there's huge difference between 245 and 300. If you ate a lot of food, took drugs and trained hard to achieve that 245 mark then those remaining 55lbs will take more than eating even more protein, tweaking the training, taking LBAs and Humanofort or what have you.

I have no problem with guys not wanting others to make the same mistakes they did. But don't do a shitload of drugs to try to weigh 300lbs and once that part of your life is over, and you've downsized, tell newbies that can be achieved without the pharmaceuticals you yourself used. For example, I remember years ago one guy in this thread sitting at 290 and talking about using insulin to try and break 3 bills. He was looking for a drug solution. Now none of this is no longer needed.

KillerStack, I really want to thank you for playing devil's advocate in this thread... your contributions spiced things up a bit and really made the 13 pages so far worth reading.

Thanks. Just having the big dogs giving each other virtual high fives for "great posts" is not much fun.

 

[mule]

Bro, there's huge difference between 245 and 300. If you ate a lot of food, took drugs and trained hard to achieve that 245 mark then those remaining 55lbs will take more than eating even more protein, tweaking the training, taking LBAs and Humanofort or what have you.

I have no problem with guys not wanting others to make the same mistakes they did. But don't do a shitload of drugs to try to weigh 300lbs and once that part of your life is over, and you've downsized, tell newbies that can be achieved without the pharmaceuticals you yourself used. For example, I remember years ago one guy in this thread sitting at 290 and talking about using insulin to try and break 3 bills. He was looking for a drug solution. Now none of this is no longer needed.



Thanks. Just having the big dogs giving each other virtual high fives for "great posts" is not much fun.

your right, it is a big difference but if you look at my posts in this thread i was personally wasn't talking about being 300 pounds. i was talking about being the best you can be through hard work and consistency with all facets involved over years and years. For me i would not even want to be 300 pounds, my wrists are a hair over 6 inchs. i have small bone structure, so i don't think would ever be what i would want to do as far as weight. to give you an idea of the looks i like more it is like early 1990s flex wheeler, serge nubret, that type not branch warren , jay cutler, dorian yates types but that is just my preference.

 

[gooey]

k..

Well, I assume Big A talks to these guys off the boards and that's it's no assumption.

I am not saying Dorian was Mr O just because he took more drugs than us, or everyone else. What I am saying is that you can't remove the drug part of the equation, nor can you compensate for the drugs with the other parts of the equation, the food, the training. Even with Dorian's elite genetics and tremendous drive and focus throughout the entire year he still needed the drugs in very liberal amounts to achieve what he did. He needed the steroids, he needed the DNP, he needed the GH, he needed those things to achieve the grainiest, leanest, most massive physique seen to that date. There had been tons of dedicated guys with insane genetics prior to him but none achieved anything close to his physique. Because training and food can't push the natural genetic limit further. No, not everyone will do what Dorian did by taking the same drugs. That's not the point. I do believe his drug use would have to have been classified as extreme.

And not every pro bodybuilder can weigh 300lbs, nor do they need to. Dave Henry and Dexter are a bit shorter which accounts for some of the weight difference. But anyone who knows bodybuilding can look at even just the faces of the top pros and see what they are doing drug-wise. It's not just a couple of cc's of testosterone. See the pics from yesterday's O press conference.

1st off this is a good way of debating, I want to compliment you on your non-insulting, and to the point debating on the position you take... this is how to voice your opinion without being disrespectful!

Again we have to highlight some of the best BBers all time unfortunately because they get the spotlight. I guess what I want to know is do you know for sure Dorian used DNP? Do you know if any of the pros use that now? And if Dorian used "liberally" how do you know for sure that Kevin Levrone used less? Did Shawn Ray use less also? Being that they did place 1st? As far as stature that doesnt always work, Kai Green will be a big boy and he is short in stature himself. And what about Phil Heath... hes so new to BBing yet has gained so much in such a little time... is he just using more then Ronnie to make these signifigant gains? Same with Kai for that matter. I wont argue that many have pushed the threshold for usage and will continue the "more is better" and "more then that will make me Mr. O" but I agree with AWN, Dusty, and Dante and its not a "high five" as stated earlier. These are people who have invested much time into BBing and many relationships with gym rats to current IFBB pros. I myself know many gym rats, high level amatuers and a few IFBB pros. Some would fall into your category of "more is better and thats why...." but you would be surprised how many gym rats I know take more shit then most amatuers and some pros cause they think that will get them to that point. And lastly I do not talk to Big A behind the scenes and would never take 3 grams of Vitamin C a week But I will and always will focus on what truly makes a great BBer, the foundation of: a lot of good food, a lot of moving weight, consistency, and a crazy psychosis mixed with OCD

 

[KillerStack]

1st off this is a good way of debating, I want to compliment you on your non-insulting, and to the point debating on the position you take... this is how to voice your opinion without being disrespectful!

Again we have to highlight some of the best BBers all time unfortunately because they get the spotlight. I guess what I want to know is do you know for sure Dorian used DNP? Do you know if any of the pros use that now? And if Dorian used "liberally" how do you know for sure that Kevin Levrone used less? Did Shawn Ray use less also? Being that they did place 1st? As far as stature that doesnt always work, Kai Green will be a big boy and he is short in stature himself. And what about Phil Heath... hes so new to BBing yet has gained so much in such a little time... is he just using more then Ronnie to make these signifigant gains? Same with Kai for that matter. I wont argue that many have pushed the threshold for usage and will continue the "more is better" and "more then that will make me Mr. O" but I agree with AWN, Dusty, and Dante and its not a "high five" as stated earlier. These are people who have invested much time into BBing and many relationships with gym rats to current IFBB pros. I myself know many gym rats, high level amatuers and a few IFBB pros. Some would fall into your category of "more is better and thats why...." but you would be surprised how many gym rats I know take more shit then most amatuers and some pros cause they think that will get them to that point. And lastly I do not talk to Big A behind the scenes and would never take 3 grams of Vitamin C a week But I will and always will focus on what truly makes a great BBer, the foundation of: a lot of good food, a lot of moving weight, consistency, and a crazy psychosis mixed with OCD

I have no real idea who Big A was talking about, wasn't saying you were one of them. Someone posted that quote in this thread so I had to search and see who said it. It was interesting nonetheless in light of how everyone seems to have gone on to doing cycles that are lighter and shorter than was popular in the 60s.

I mentioned DNP since Milos told a story recently about how he almost died after getting DNP pills and dosing advice from Dorian on a European tour in the 90s. Said he was advised he could take 2-3 600mg pills a day no problem. Add this to the numerous other close calls he's had due to drugs and made public. God knows how many other close calls he hasn't mentioned. And Milos is of course one of the guys who says none of the pros ever abuse drugs and all the top guys will live to be 80 for sure. I know of one Olympian who uses DNP for sure but can't say more than that. Anyhow that's just one example of radical drug use.

There's some differences in what the top guys use I'm sure and I can't claim to know exactly. But if a guy is dehydrated and a day out from a show yet has 5 pounds of water in his face alone I think it's safe to say he's not on just a drop of test. I don't know what Phil Heath does but "Skip" has said Phil is on almost nothing and he's a long time friend. Then again Dante was a bit pissed off about Hany Rambod ripping him off and mentioned he has heard how pros have complained about how much shit Hany tries to make them take. So who knows? All I know for sure is that it's always someone else who's abusing.

And you're right, there's gym rats doing more than any pro too. Drugs alone won't make anyone into a good bodybuilder, that's for sure.

 

[massnup]

And I may kick myself for saying this.........BUT, I believe while you are young GO FOR IT....this is not something you can do heavily for 20-30 years....give it a good shot for 10-15 years and then go to TRT. I am not saying to be on HEAVY year round, but I think you should reach your goal while you are young then cruise away into the sunset and live a healthy life. I am unsure what megadosing means........but I think a reasonable progression is in order to be able to compete with the mass monsters as long as blood tests are in check. Yo-YO weight gain, yo-YO hormone use, anything from extreme to extreme is unhealthy physically and MENTALLY.

What are you calling young, early 30's? I suppose not early 20's correct?

 

[massnup]

I agree with most of the guys that you should come off.

But I go to the genetics thing again. There's a guy here in my town, , that I know for a fact, didn't become a "genetic freak", as many of you have called him, until he got his "Supplementation" down. He wasn't winning local shows. He had been at it for a long time. (And no he wasn't natural for all that time)

So when I see guys posting, "You'll know your a genetic elite within the first few years" I have to disagree to a point. I believe all 3 aspects have to be on point. When they are, only then will most see their true genetics limits.

So what do you mean by "until he got his supplementation down"?

 

[gooey]

well..

I have no real idea who Big A was talking about, wasn't saying you were one of them. Someone posted that quote in this thread so I had to search and see who said it. It was interesting nonetheless in light of how everyone seems to have gone on to doing cycles that are lighter and shorter than was popular in the 60s.

I mentioned DNP since Milos told a story recently about how he almost died after getting DNP pills and dosing advice from Dorian on a European tour in the 90s. Said he was advised he could take 2-3 600mg pills a day no problem. Add this to the numerous other close calls he's had due to drugs and made public. God knows how many other close calls he hasn't mentioned. And Milos is of course one of the guys who says none of the pros ever abuse drugs and all the top guys will live to be 80 for sure. I know of one Olympian who uses DNP for sure but can't say more than that. Anyhow that's just one example of radical drug use.

There's some differences in what the top guys use I'm sure and I can't claim to know exactly. But if a guy is dehydrated and a day out from a show yet has 5 pounds of water in his face alone I think it's safe to say he's not on just a drop of test. I don't know what Phil Heath does but "Skip" has said Phil is on almost nothing and he's a long time friend. Then again Dante was a bit pissed off about Hany Rambod ripping him off and mentioned he has heard how pros have complained about how much shit Hany tries to make them take. So who knows? All I know for sure is that it's always someone else who's abusing.

And you're right, there's gym rats doing more than any pro too. Drugs alone won't make anyone into a good bodybuilder, that's for sure.

Im just not a big follower of the he said she said... even if its true. The cheek thing is relative also... some guys have no cheek fat and striated jaw muscles even offseason while others can be shredded to the bone yet still have puffy cheeks... again I dont think you can verify the amount druge usage from fat deposition or water retention in a BBer's cheeks. Once again this is relative to how the BBer retains fluid and fat. Ronnie never had real puffy cheeks, Jay on the otherhand does. You can also make a reference to the BBer's Jaw muscle growth and size but I have trained a female BBer who was hormone free and she has a very pronounced jaw line. In my opinion this is the response from chewing constant meals of dense chicken, and steak.

 

[KillerStack]

In my opinion this is the response from chewing constant meals of dense chicken, and steak.

Yes, IF it's combined with drugs!

Oral Surg Oral Med Oral Pathol Oral Radiol Endod. 2001 Nov;92(5):515-8.
Masseteric hypertrophy associated with administration of anabolic steroids and unilateral mastication: a case report.
Skoura C, Mourouzis C, Saranteas T, Chatzigianni E, Tesseromatis C.

Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, General District Hospital of Athens KAT, Greece.

In this report we present a patient with unilateral masseteric hypertrophy who used anabolic steroids and was chewing entirely unilaterally for 1 month. Computed tomography and histologic examination were used to confirm the diagnosis. The combined action of unilateral mastication and anabolic steroid use is probably responsible for the rapid development of unilateral masseteric hypertrophy.

More on this here:

Steroids lead to lopsided face

1: J Oral Sci. 2008 Mar;50(1):19-24.
Effects of use of anabolic steroids on the masticatory system: a pilot study.
Barros TS, Santos MB, Shinozaki EB, Santos JF, Marchini L.

Department of Dentistry, University of Vale do Paraíba - UNIVAP, São José dos Campos, Brazil.

The use of androgenic anabolic steroids (AAS) has increased significantly among athletes in Brazil and other countries. These drugs alter the physiological behavior of bone and muscles, also affecting these structures in masticatory system. This paper aims to evaluate bone and dental changes in users of AAS, as well as the incidence of temporomandibular dysfunction (TMD), compared to athletes not using AAS. Eight athletes were equally divided in two groups, AAS users and non-users. The groups were evaluated using Helkimo index, McNamara cephalometric tracing and cast analysis. The AAS users presented more intense TMD signs and symptoms (Di total value, P = 0.096, Mann-Whitney test), increased cephalometric measures (Co-A, P = 0.020, Mann-Whitney test) and Angle Class II malocclusion, compared to the non-users. These results suggested that the use of AAS alters masticatory structures and increases the incidence of TMD.

 

[KillerStack]

Don't know if this theory has been discussed here before, but take a look. I've been looking for the studies on "testicular hibernation" for a while, since I saw it discussed by "Nandi" years ago. I make no claims about its applicability, but since time off and avoiding HPTA damage has been discussed it may be of interest.

Animal study: continuous steroid use keeps testes young

The researchers suspect that testes age because they are active. Perhaps the process of testosterone and sperm production leads to the release of free radicals that damage the tissue, they speculate. Whatever mechanism is at work, the testes of steroids users may well be comparable to every second-hand car dealer's dream: one careful lady owner: spent more time in the garage and has hardly ever been used.

 

[HUMALOG]

thats it...


i am saving my nards for a rainy day, keep'n young and fresh

 

[AzCats]

Oldie but Goodie..Bump