IRRESPONSIBLE ACTIONS = HEALTH RISKS!

[little slice]

Didn't Dave have some huge Irish powerlifter on there saying that there's studies showing tren is kidney toxic even without high bp?

is that what is necessarily going for 'authoritative sources' nowadays?

 

[bereal23]

is that what is necessarily going for 'authoritative sources' nowadays?

Lol I mean do you think the guy just made up the study?

 

[little slice]

Lol I mean do you think the guy just made up the study?

no...


but I think you're referring to Dave Crosland


he claimed to be eating 10 pounds of food a day... and also claims that, even though his weight got up to around 400 pounds (and IIRC, he wasn't really paying any attention to his health, or the vast amount of drugs he was using), his blood pressure never got out of range



and yeah, his kidneys are damaged... or as he put it, "knackered"

 

[Kaladryn]

I don't see where fasted(12 hour) glucose levels are a good indicator. How often do most people go over 12 hours between eating. How quick one can get their glucose levels back to a healthy level is more important. With my diet and supps my last few non-fasted tests ranged from 80 to the upper 90's.

Fasted glucose tells a story about how your body is managing insulin released in response to liver glycogen maintaining blood glucose levels. 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours, it doesn't really matter, once digesting food is gone (2-3 hours max) your body has to maintain blood sugar levels by releasing glycogen from the liver. If excessive amounts of insulin are needed to bring blood sugar down (insulin resistance) then you will be stressing the beta cells, if not enough insulin is released, blood sugar will be high from liver glycogen released, this will increase insulin resistance.

 

[maldorf]

Insulin doesn't cause insulin resistance, glucose does, they (doctors) used to think insulin caused it but now they no longer believe that. It's the glucose that causes it. This is straight from the mouth of my endo who is diabetes specialist, I see him tomorrow, I'm going to ask again to be sure.

That makes sense since people that eat a diet high in sugar tend to get type II. I wonder though, it is a bit like the question what came first "the chicken or the egg?" Taking in lots of sugar causes the release of more insulin. Is it the presence of all that insulin that causes type II or is it the glucose? I think it would be hard to separate the two unless it is done in a research setting with animals.

 

[Kaladryn]

That makes sense since people that eat a diet high in sugar tend to get type II. I wonder though, it is a bit like the question what came first "the chicken or the egg?" Taking in lots of sugar causes the release of more insulin. Is it the presence of all that insulin that causes type II or is it the glucose? I think it would be hard to separate the two unless it is done in a research setting with animals.

This is a huge topic that has lots of research behind it, the current thinking by diabetes experts is that the glucose is what causes the insulin resistance, not the insulin.

 

[little slice]

I personally believe that the dark urine from tren is all myoglobin causing mild rhabdo in the kidneys. It's an indirect effect of the increased strength tren gives you.

it's a sound theory


but do other drugs that promote immense strength gains (anadrol, halotestin, dbol) do the same? ive never noticed dark urine while using those drugs.


my urine is definitely noticeably darker when im using beet root powder tho


when I was in the ER after my DNP overdose, my urine was quite dark...very dark actually.


I was using tren at the time as well.



they never found myoglobin in my urine


and ive had numerous urinalyses while using tren, and nothing came up.



that's just purely my anecdotal experience.

 

[KillerStack]

I personally believe that the dark urine from tren is all myoglobin causing mild rhabdo in the kidneys. It's an indirect effect of the increased strength tren gives you.

I remembered this theory:

"The origin of this myth most likely has to do with the rust colored oxidized metabolites of trenbolone which are excreted in urine and often mistaken for blood.. Trenbolone and 17epi-trenbolone are both excreted in urine as conjugates that can be hydrolyzed with beta-glucuronidase.This implies that trenbolone leaves the body as beta-glucuronides or sulfates."

Thoughts?

 

[maldorf]

This is a huge topic that has lots of research behind it, the current thinking by diabetes experts is that the glucose is what causes the insulin resistance, not the insulin.

It seems more logical to me. Id like to see research.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Insulin doesn't cause insulin resistance, glucose does, they (doctors) used to think insulin caused it but now they no longer believe that. It's the glucose that causes it. This is straight from the mouth of my endo who is diabetes specialist, I see him tomorrow, I'm going to ask again to be sure.

There are many factors that contribute to the development of type 2 diabetes. For example, excess calories from either carbs or fats, lack of physical activity and chronic stress. So yes, in the context of a practitioner's daily experience, it is the shitload of bad fats and carbs (think hfcs) consumed by the aveage patient which leads to insulin resistance and subsequently type 2 diabetes. But even here the mechanism is that first peripheral tissue gets 'overfilled', leading to peripheral insulin resistance. The observed elevated blood glucose is only a symptom secondary to the underlying issue and not causal. If I stop working out today and start eating tons of junk food, my blood glucose will be just fine since my endogenous insulin can still push those nutrients in the absence of existing insulin resistance. Only once I become resistant from the excess calories does the blood glucose creep up. So I don't agree with your doctor here.

Furthermore, this is not the only possible cause of insulin resistance. There is a well established literature showing insulin receptor downregulation following chronic exposure to insulin. Mike Arnold has written about this at length. Not to mention that the anecdotal evidence collected by him and others with respect to Lantus use in bodybuilding also strongly points in that direction.

So going back to the Dave Palumbo argument that you should treat GH-induced IR with long-acting insulin: given the insulin receptor downregulation induced by this procedure, peripheral tissues would lose additional insulin receptors over time, in turn aggravating the degree of insulin resistance. As a consequence, you would now have to use even more exogenous insulin to still keep blood glucose in the normal range, worsening resistance further, and so on. Mike has fittingly called this a vicious cycle that leads nowhere good.

Still, if you merely replace the amount of insulin you produce endogenously, you don't have that issue and take some pressure off the beta cells. If on the other hand you overdo it and force your fasting blood glucose into the 80s like Palumbo proposes, it's definitely counterproductive.

 

[needthepump]

Tren is poison to the kidneys. All the former AAS abusers at the dialysis clinics I work at all used tren.

 

[thethinker48]

Tren is poison to the kidneys. All the former AAS abusers at the dialysis clinics I work at all used tren.

Pretty sure all AAS users have used tren [emoji5]

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Kaladryn]

it's a sound theory


but do other drugs that promote immense strength gains (anadrol, halotestin, dbol) do the same? ive never noticed dark urine while using those drugs.


my urine is definitely noticeably darker when im using beet root powder tho


when I was in the ER after my DNP overdose, my urine was quite dark...very dark actually.


I was using tren at the time as well.



they never found myoglobin in my urine


and ive had numerous urinalyses while using tren, and nothing came up.



that's just purely my anecdotal experience.

Exactly what made me come up with that theory is that I also get the dark urine from anadrol.

I remembered this theory:

"The origin of this myth most likely has to do with the rust colored oxidized metabolites of trenbolone which are excreted in urine and often mistaken for blood.. Trenbolone and 17epi-trenbolone are both excreted in urine as conjugates that can be hydrolyzed with beta-glucuronidase.This implies that trenbolone leaves the body as beta-glucuronides or sulfates."

Thoughts?

Could be, but I notice the dark colored urine goes away after I'm on tren for a while, I only seem to notice in the beginning, when the strength gains are the most dramatic.

It seems more logical to me. Id like to see research.

Google it, I just did a bunch of research trying to answer that same question, it seems like they used to think insulin lead to type 2 but now they think its the glucose.

There are many factors that contribute to the development of type 2 diabetes. For example, excess calories from either carbs or fats, lack of physical activity and chronic stress. So yes, in the context of a practitioner's daily experience, it is the shitload of bad fats and carbs (think hfcs) consumed by the aveage patient which leads to insulin resistance and subsequently type 2 diabetes. But even here the mechanism is that first peripheral tissue gets 'overfilled', leading to peripheral insulin resistance. The observed elevated blood glucose is only a symptom secondary to the underlying issue and not causal. If I stop working out today and start eating tons of junk food, my blood glucose will be just fine since my endogenous insulin can still push those nutrients in the absence of existing insulin resistance. Only once I become resistant from the excess calories does the blood glucose creep up. So I don't agree with your doctor here.

Furthermore, this is not the only possible cause of insulin resistance. There is a well established literature showing insulin receptor downregulation following chronic exposure to insulin. Mike Arnold has written about this at length. Not to mention that the anecdotal evidence collected by him and others with respect to Lantus use in bodybuilding also strongly points in that direction.

So going back to the Dave Palumbo argument that you should treat GH-induced IR with long-acting insulin: given the insulin receptor downregulation induced by this procedure, peripheral tissues would lose additional insulin receptors over time, in turn aggravating the degree of insulin resistance. As a consequence, you would now have to use even more exogenous insulin to still keep blood glucose in the normal range, worsening resistance further, and so on. Mike has fittingly called this a vicious cycle that leads nowhere good.

Still, if you merely replace the amount of insulin you produce endogenously, you don't have that issue and take some pressure off the beta cells. If on the other hand you overdo it and force your fasting blood glucose into the 80s like Palumbo proposes, it's definitely counterproductive.

I agree with the first part, that glucose causes insulin resistance. As to insulin causing it, that is what the theory used to be, but I believe evidence from type 1 diabetics is changing this theory.

Anecdotal evidence from bodybuilders may not accurate because the bodybuilder is always consuming extra glucose to try and not go hypo from the insulin, so you can't know if it's the insulin or glucose causing it.

From the more recent information I have found, it seems like "overstuffed liver and muscle cells" with too much excess glucose being around is the most likely cause.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBl1iujdpCY"]INSULIN TALK WITH COLETTE NELSON! - YouTube[/ame]

New video on insulin by Rxmuscle. This is the nurse who "works in endocrinology" that gives Dave Palumbo his ideas about insulin. She clearly doesn't have a very deep understanding of the topic. She thinks that insulin and Metformin basically do the same thing, and she argues against first using GDAs and lifestyle interventions before staring insulin therapy. Her agreeing about the need to 'cycle' Metformin as suggested by the interviewer is stupid as well. Lastly, her 'explanation' for why there can't be a negative effect of exogenous insulin on peripheral insulin sensitivity is as nonsensical as it is crude. I wish Mike Arnold would go on there and debate them on this topic.

 

[little slice]

women are really doing themselves a disservice by caking that garbage onto their faces

 

[Kaladryn]

well. Lastly, her 'explanation' for why there can't be a negative effect of exogenous insulin on peripheral insulin sensitivity is as nonsensical as it is crude.

She is actually correct about this, I did a fair amount of internet research and the current scientific theory is that insulin exogenous insulin does NOT increase insulin resistance. You can google this and read up on it, it's well established. It's not even really debated anymore from what I read.

It's the people using insulin to counter large amounts of glucose (as most type 1's and bodybuilders do) that caused this myth to arise.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

She is actually correct about this, I did a fair amount of internet research and the current scientific theory is that insulin exogenous insulin does NOT increase insulin resistance. You can google this and read up on it, it's well established. It's not even really debated anymore from what I read.

It's the people using insulin to counter large amounts of glucose (as most type 1's and bodybuilders do) that caused this myth to arise.

We agree to disagree on this. I have done a fair amount of research myself, and my take from it is that it's uncontroversial that exogenous insulin does exacerbate insulin resistance. There is a reason that first line treatment of pre-diabetes is not insulin. So what she is suggesting in the podcast is in fact not the current treatment regimen used by actual doctors.

But even if you were right, her explanation of why this would be the case is completely missing the point and makes no sense to me.