Military Great Testing

[SouthernMuscle]

I think it depends on what you use. PED use is rampant in SOF units, friends of mine even brought preloaded syringes to SFAS
A lot of my buddies used EQ and Cardarine and were cardio beasts.
But an even bigger epidemic is low test among those in SOF. After years of no sleep, hard training cycles, living in austere conditions, stress, a lot of these guys are bottom of the barrel test wise by the time they reach E7-8.
I think TRT or sports TRT might be a good idea. Bodybuilder doses.. no. We had a few guys fall out on target due to shin and back pumps. One was in a leadership position and it wrecked his career. Another friend had a stroke from taking 2g of EQ for 2 years, no education on supps.
I spent 10 years in SOF btw

Jesus christ

i think of that + physical expenditure + sweating, dehydration……….it’s a wonder it took 2 yrs

 

[KillerStack]

Absolutely and good morning

Two sets of data
47/126
Half Marathon Completed Morning
60 Min Performance Session Afternoon

56/61
12 Hour Explosive Breaching Class Approx 70-75 Charges Initiated

Average RHR + HRV on generic training day (run,swim, ruck + afternoon performance session) - 200 Test + 300EQ
42-44/170-180
Average RHR + HRV on 200 Test + 300 EQ + 2IU of HGH
46-48/140-160
Average RHR + HRV on 200 Test + 300 EQ + 4IU of HGH
54-56/110

I don't have long term data of both the conjunction of HGH + training days. To be frank at this point I only really adjunct instruct once a week on average and in a rare case 2x per week. The increase to RHR + decrease to HRV from the PEDs alone + a training day typically means the next day you are utterly crushed. Hypothesizing on 2IU of GH the other day of instruction I would have most likely been around 65/40.

We have physiological recovery in which case you will not hear an argument from me - low dose test + eq are highly powerful substances to increase athletic output.
But then
Neurological recovery from high taxing events - Overpressure from both breaching + range days, cognitive output from structural work, performance driving, etc. These compounds seem to just push an individuals ability to recover a bit deeper down into the dirt for lack of a better expression.

I have made an observation over the years. The only other one that I can remember saying this is Dave Tate. Going on steroids or steroids plus hgh almost always causes a seeming worsening of recovery, which almost always leads to less training days and lower bodypart frequency. Lots of pros always say, anabolics don't build muscle, they just hasten recovery so you can train more and harder. And I'm there like wth are they saying? Maybe my observation is due to what you say wrt neurological recovery? I've seen competing natural powerlifters training the squat or the deadlift sometimes 4 times a week. Maybe a bad idea most of the time but they can do it. They go on gear and suddenly it's once a week max for each of the powerlifts.

 

[fisther69]

I wanted to avoid posting on this however the misinformation and honestly lack of understanding of these organizations lends to opinions not founded on meritorious fact. Several of you here know me and where I served (as far as unit/command).

This is absolutely a step in the right direction - I sincerely agree with @AllOkJumpmaster

If you are with a conventional SEAL, SF, or other troop being enhanced is an utter liability at best. This opinion is multi faceted:

1) Degradation in performance from PEDs in aspects that really matter. For those of you that follow me you have seen my output numbers on a myriad of compounds. The difference between 200 and 300mg on mile time, ruck time, etc is profound. My mile goes from 5:25-5:40 to 6:22-6:28. VO2 max decreases by 17% for me specifically the second I go over 200mg of testosterone. It also seems to interfere with my ability to process lactate. I highlight this as a majority of the information that is prevalent is geared towards "bodybuilders" and gym rats not individuals whose performance actually matters. The number of guys we had running Test, D-Bol and Deca cycles after getting to their troop was countless. Bottom line it interfered with their ability to do their job.

2) There is currently the worlds largest human performance program within Naval Special Warfare (mostly just on the East coast however) - If you need TRT you are put on TRT. Navy SEAL foundation thankfully pays for absolutely everything for active and former individuals coming from NSW. This is two fold, operator longevity and the protection of a national level asset. I was medically discharged in 2013 from my command due to hepatocellular carcinoma which came from the rampant abuse of these compounds and experimental peptides. The amount of money the DOD sunk into me hoping to capitalize on that investment for another decade was profound.

3) "Roid" rage is a thing, period. I don't care who the hell you are but lets be honest here. This is an already highly aggressive group of individuals, having any external influence impacting their ability to dispatch the appropriate amount of violence will purely result in more unnecessary legal proceedings.


Development Group and Delta will not be screened with the same tenacity - due to different factors but their mission set and time in country is completely different. Conventional SOF teams are deploying for 6-8 months right now at a time - not having supplies in country and not being able to maintain your base level of performance is highly dangerous.

@SouthernMuscle To your earlier comment I have some data up on performance degradation of different dosages of HGH. Substantial increase in RHR decreasing HRV not allowing for full neurological recovery.

We did get tested from time to time in the OD-A..but when we went to SMU? Nah…even the OD-A testing I think was bullshit..pretty sure they just tossed the samples

 

[Strongarm]

My understanding is for the long sorties the stealth pilots take they were given "go pills" to make it through. The info may be 10-15 years old but I believe the 24+ hour flight they needed to make sure pilot and plane got back ok. I believe it was a former AF pilot who told me as much, but maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

Either way, makes sense to try control or mitigate something which creates a dependency.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

Man sorry I’m just now seeing this, idk why I don’t get notifications when I get tagged in a post

I’m inclined to believe you, evidence unseen. I was just being argumentative. I don’t know shit about fuck when it comes to this stuff

I wanted to avoid posting on this however the misinformation and honestly lack of understanding of these organizations lends to opinions not founded on meritorious fact. Several of you here know me and where I served (as far as unit/command).

This is absolutely a step in the right direction - I sincerely agree with @AllOkJumpmaster

If you are with a conventional SEAL, SF, or other troop being enhanced is an utter liability at best. This opinion is multi faceted:

1) Degradation in performance from PEDs in aspects that really matter. For those of you that follow me you have seen my output numbers on a myriad of compounds. The difference between 200 and 300mg on mile time, ruck time, etc is profound. My mile goes from 5:25-5:40 to 6:22-6:28. VO2 max decreases by 17% for me specifically the second I go over 200mg of testosterone. It also seems to interfere with my ability to process lactate. I highlight this as a majority of the information that is prevalent is geared towards "bodybuilders" and gym rats not individuals whose performance actually matters. The number of guys we had running Test, D-Bol and Deca cycles after getting to their troop was countless. Bottom line it interfered with their ability to do their job.

2) There is currently the worlds largest human performance program within Naval Special Warfare (mostly just on the East coast however) - If you need TRT you are put on TRT. Navy SEAL foundation thankfully pays for absolutely everything for active and former individuals coming from NSW. This is two fold, operator longevity and the protection of a national level asset. I was medically discharged in 2013 from my command due to hepatocellular carcinoma which came from the rampant abuse of these compounds and experimental peptides. The amount of money the DOD sunk into me hoping to capitalize on that investment for another decade was profound.

3) "Roid" rage is a thing, period. I don't care who the hell you are but lets be honest here. This is an already highly aggressive group of individuals, having any external influence impacting their ability to dispatch the appropriate amount of violence will purely result in more unnecessary legal proceedings.


Development Group and Delta will not be screened with the same tenacity - due to different factors but their mission set and time in country is completely different. Conventional SOF teams are deploying for 6-8 months right now at a time - not having supplies in country and not being able to maintain your base level of performance is highly dangerous.

@SouthernMuscle To your earlier comment I have some data up on performance degradation of different dosages of HGH. Substantial increase in RHR decreasing HRV not allowing for full neurological recovery.

 

[1fst400]

Man sorry I’m just now seeing this, idk why I don’t get notifications when I get tagged in a post

I’m inclined to believe you, evidence unseen. I was just being argumentative. I don’t know shit about fuck when it comes to this stuff

Among other things. Why not just shut your mouth?

 

[Performance Based]

Man sorry I’m just now seeing this, idk why I don’t get notifications when I get tagged in a post

I’m inclined to believe you, evidence unseen. I was just being argumentative. I don’t know shit about fuck when it comes to this stuff

No need to apologize - to be honest I don't always get notifications either. Sometimes I'll be like "oh shit someone tried to get ahold of me".

Hope that helps a little bit and hope you have a damn epic day.

 

[Performance Based]

Among other things. Why not just shut your mouth?

Positive, happy, loving. C'mon big sexy. We got this.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

Among other things. Why not just shut your mouth?

 

[qbkilla]

I have made an observation over the years. The only other one that I can remember saying this is Dave Tate. Going on steroids or steroids plus hgh almost always causes a seeming worsening of recovery, which almost always leads to less training days and lower bodypart frequency. Lots of pros always say, anabolics don't build muscle, they just hasten recovery so you can train more and harder. And I'm there like wth are they saying? Maybe my observation is due to what you say wrt neurological recovery? I've seen competing natural powerlifters training the squat or the deadlift sometimes 4 times a week. Maybe a bad idea most of the time but they can do it. They go on gear and suddenly it's once a week max for each of the powerlifts.

So there is a theory that AAS worsens recovery? Could it just be because most guys using are training more intense than naturals and can't use the same volume and frequency?

 

[fisther69]

Dextroamphetamine was routinely utilized by everyone and the push to armodafinil occurred a few years back.

Shit man, how many guys you know fall into the fish bowls full of ambien and Motrin 800’s? I still want to know the long term effects of that shit on some of the guys we worked with.

Literally we would have what looked like candy dishes with free range ambien or 800mg Motrin..just for whoever! No monitoring of that shit at all!

 

[fisther69]

So there is a theory that AAS worsens recovery? Could it just be because most guys using are training more intense than naturals and can't use the same volume and frequency?

for me in that environment I don’t feel it hurt the recovery..but it damn sure didn’t improve it..it really improved my output and my recovery stayed the same..so, I was always fucked up and falling behind

 

[bereal23]

Shit man, how many guys you know fall into the fish bowls full of ambien and Motrin 800’s? I still want to know the long term effects of that shit on some of the guys we worked with.

Literally we would have what looked like candy dishes with free range ambien or 800mg Motrin..just for whoever! No monitoring of that shit at all!

Jocko had a military doctor on his podcast a while back that talked about this. Guys were absolutely wrecked, getting no real sleep with rock bottom testosterone. I'll try to find it

Jocko podcast episode 367

 

[fisther69]

Jocko had a military doctor on his podcast a while back that talked about this. Guys were absolutely wrecked, getting no real sleep with rock bottom testosterone. I'll try to find it

Jocko podcast episode 367

I tried ambien like 3 times..just amped me up..in no way did that shit even make me drowsy..glad it didn’t work on me because I would’ve abused the hell out of that opportunity

 

[KillerStack]

So there is a theory that AAS worsens recovery? Could it just be because most guys using are training more intense than naturals and can't use the same volume and frequency?

Yes and no, I think. This fella says it's related to PEDs and their effect on HRH and HRV. I'd like to hear more about the mechanisms that causes this.

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

We did get tested from time to time in the OD-A..but when we went to SMU? Nah…even the OD-A testing I think was bullshit..pretty sure they just tossed the samples

thank you for all that you sacrificed to serve in SoF. It is the most elite of the elite, but the machine leaves guys broken on the back end. I am not implying you dont know, but there are a fuck ton of SoF veteran specific resources available were you to ever need anything

 

[fisther69]

thank you for all that you sacrificed to serve in SoF. It is the most elite of the elite, but the machine leaves guys broken on the back end. I am not implying you dont know, but there are a fuck ton of SoF veteran specific resources available were you to ever need anything

I’ve heard all the horror stories..but really I was taken pretty good care of..but then when I got out and started my new career (instantly) I got really good benefits and my wife is a cardio thoracic surgeon..so, she essentially oversees all my shit through her networks of people.

I have never experienced all the bad shit post military like others did because I never relied on the VA. Really the only problem I had post service was my TBI and probable CTE was really bad for a while but my wife got me into several programs and I have made huge improvements..I would have probably ended up killing myself if I had to rely on the VA

And I was nowhere near the elite of the elite..I throw that waaay out there..just another replaceable dude

 

[Performance Based]

Shit man, how many guys you know fall into the fish bowls full of ambien and Motrin 800’s? I still want to know the long term effects of that shit on some of the guys we worked with.

Literally we would have what looked like candy dishes with free range ambien or 800mg Motrin..just for whoever! No monitoring of that shit at all!

I was lucky on the ambien thing - our side of the house stopped prescribing in 2011ish after the Human Performance program got stood up. It’s worth a google but ambien has an inverse relationship with testosterone production as well as interferences with the natural pulsatile release of GH.

That combined with non stop cortisol levels flooding your system and your essentially turning yourself hypogondal.

Our lodging at Yuma we actually used to have a jawbreaker vending machine with every type of pain management med under the sun in it to include opiates. Nice little sign over it saying “don’t be an idiot only use what you need” with a laminated sheet with the photos of the pills and an explanation of what is what. Would just open the top and put it what you didn’t want back in.

Sanitary? No.
effective? Extremely

Thankfully I’ve never been a fan of sedatives - even 5mg of a THC gummy has me feeling like I’d rather be doing anything else. Can’t imagine the guys predisposed to opiate addiction coming through.

Applied actually to a federal department when I left and one of their questions they ask is the taking of prescription drugs without a RX. Figured fuck it I’ll play ball and put something down. Wound up being one of the dumber things I’ve ever done. Department wound up losing out in their ability to participate in/cross train with the guys during RUTs. Was like “maaaa bad guys”.

 

[fisther69]

I was lucky on the ambien thing - our side of the house stopped prescribing in 2011ish after the Human Performance program got stood up. It’s worth a google but ambien has an inverse relationship with testosterone production as well as interferences with the natural pulsatile release of GH.

That combined with non stop cortisol levels flooding your system and your essentially turning yourself hypogondal.

Our lodging at Yuma we actually used to have a jawbreaker vending machine with every type of pain management med under the sun in it to include opiates. Nice little sign over it saying “don’t be an idiot only use what you need” with a laminated sheet with the photos of the pills and an explanation of what is what. Would just open the top and put it what you didn’t want back in.

Sanitary? No.
effective? Extremely

Thankfully I’ve never been a fan of sedatives - even 5mg of a THC gummy has me feeling like I’d rather be doing anything else. Can’t imagine the guys predisposed to opiate addiction coming through.

Applied actually to a federal department when I left and one of their questions they ask is the taking of prescription drugs without a RX. Figured fuck it I’ll play ball and put something down. Wound up being one of the dumber things I’ve ever done. Department wound up losing out in their ability to participate in/cross train with the guys during RUTs. Was like “maaaa bad guys”.

I was actually pretty good..I never even took my prescribed meds except testosterone, HCG, metformin, and metoprolol.

Now, I might have abused the metoprolol a little bit I feel like beta blockers were underrated for our profession.

I only tried the ambien a few times (2-3 maybe) the shit just amped me up and even then I had a legitimate prescription but I just didn’t take it.

So, I was lucky not having anything to lie about…I mean, I still did because of AAS usage

 

[Fa Seeshus]

If you are going to be doing extreme exertion under high heat stress (either from being layered in body armour/protective equipment and/or from the environment itself), the blood pressure meds we often have to take while on gear can cause some serious issues with heat tolerance. These drugs need to be carefully titrated if one is used to exertion in normal temperatures and is then deployed into a sweatbox situation.