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Proviron vs boron to raise free test

Brickshthouse79

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Im on emerics protocol (10mg/day cyp). Recently, i added proviron to further elevate free test. After reading some of Dante's older posts I learned that boron also raises free test and its much cheaper than proviron. Does anyone take boron and/or proviron with their trt?

For anyone that does and has also used proviron, how does boron compare to proviron?
 

Cinder

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I'm still trying to figure out if 10mg a day of prop would be okay lol.

I'm just wondering why are you worried about raising free test while on low dosage. I'm dumb to this lol.
 

OutToLunch

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Dante just posted on the gram about boron at 12mg per day. I doubt anyone was running it that high.
 

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I believe school is still out on this one, but various studies have indicated Boron did not increase testosterone in a group of men age 18 to 29. But it did increase free testosterone slightly. Total testosterone was not affected, just free testosterone. All this means is that some of the bound testosterone may have turned in to free testosterone.
One of the biggest advantages associated with use of Proviron is its unique ability to promote the count and quality of sperm and is also indicated to treat serious wellness problems such as low libido and erectile malfunction.
The fact that Proviron can attach itself to SHBG (sex hormone-binding globulin) and albumin means that a large percentage of testosterone (free) is made available to conduct anabolic actions.
So...of I had to chose, I would definitely stick with Proviron, at least until there is more definitive positive results in on Boron.
GD
 

Brickshthouse79

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Dante just posted on the gram about boron at 12mg per day. I doubt anyone was running it that high.
Thanks, I saw the post. Great timing. I just bought some boron and im going to try it in place of proviron for a couple of months.

When I was 15, I saw an af for as test booster in muscle media 2000. My buddy and i bought it and when it arrived it was boron. Now 25 yrs later im buying it again!
 

Brickshthouse79

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Dante just posted on the gram about boron at 12mg per day. I doubt anyone was running it that high.
I believe school is still out on this one, but various studies have indicated Boron did not increase testosterone in a group of men age 18 to 29. But it did increase free testosterone slightly. Total testosterone was not affected, just free testosterone. All this means is that some of the bound testosterone may have turned in to free testosterone.
One of the biggest advantages associated with use of Proviron is its unique ability to promote the count and quality of sperm and is also indicated to treat serious wellness problems such as low libido and erectile malfunction.
The fact that Proviron can attach itself to SHBG (sex hormone-binding globulin) and albumin means that a large percentage of testosterone (free) is made available to conduct anabolic actions.
So...of I had to chose, I would definitely stick with Proviron, at least until there is more definitive positive results in on Boron.
GD

Thanks, GD. The binding to shbg and resulting elevation of free test is my primary reason for taking proviron. My shbg tends to he quite high and free test low.
 

helix139

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I was taking both boron and nettle to lower my SHbg. The boron tastes like shit and therefore is very hard to take on a daily basis. I took the liquid form at twice the recommend dose as well as the nettle. I really could not tell a difference. I got proviron in desperation and was hesitant in taking it as I read that it affects cholesterol; this is what kills most everyone. However, I can say that it is the bomb! Feel great, less puffiness, and dick is harder than Japanese arithmetic! These results on 50 mg daily.
So on my dose of 200 mg test weekly divided in two my total test was 1300 on the day before my shot. Doc didn't tell me what the rest of the labs were as she was kinda pissed. Usually at this dose my total test is~800. I can say that it does work..I feel great, but worry about it's effect on lipids.
I had been taking the boron and nettle for three weeks before the labs were drawn and was taking only 25 mg of daily proviron a week before labs were collected.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Delt123

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Peter bond has made an Instagram post on proviron and free test; basically not much reason to take it other than feel good and hardness
 

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Brickshthouse79

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I was taking both boron and nettle to lower my SHbg. The boron tastes like shit and therefore is very hard to take on a daily basis. I took the liquid form at twice the recommend dose as well as the nettle. I really could not tell a difference. I got proviron in desperation and was hesitant in taking it as I read that it affects cholesterol; this is what kills most everyone. However, I can say that it is the bomb! Feel great, less puffiness, and dick is harder than Japanese arithmetic! These results on 50 mg daily.
So on my dose of 200 mg test weekly divided in two my total test was 1300 on the day before my shot. Doc didn't tell me what the rest of the labs were as she was kinda pissed. Usually at this dose my total test is~800. I can say that it does work..I feel great, but worry about it's effect on lipids.
I had been taking the boron and nettle for three weeks before the labs were drawn and was taking only 25 mg of daily proviron a week before labs were collected.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks. Ive been taking 25mg of proviron with my trt for the past month. I feel good, but I also changed to daily trt pinning, so its difficult to say what is responsible for feeling good. Im going to try the boron route for a few weeks heading into my trt bloodwork and drop the boron a week before the labs - ny doc is conservative and would freak if i came in anywhere near 1000mg/dl.
 

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25mg/day Mesterolone (Proviron) IS TRT all by itself.
 

Sides

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25mg/day Mesterolone (Proviron) IS TRT all by itself.
Well, yes and no, correct?

Mesterolone provides the sexual, cognitive, and other benefits of DHT, so it does replace the DHT provided by testosterone in that regard.

However, it doesn't aromatize to estrogen at all, so anyone taking only mesterolone for TRT would be missing out on all the positive benefits (as well as the negative effects) of estrogen, especially regarding fat loss and body weight regulation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835337/), brain health, heart health, bone health, and libido.

I can't find it now, but I believe there was a study done on men taking mesterolone as TRT, where they had a higher risk for osteoporosis then men taking testosterone. The only study I can find right now is this one, supporting the use of testosterone enanthate to increase bone mineral density rather than mesterolone, at least in men with secondary hypogonadism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12792150

I respect your opinion tremendously, and I consider you one of the most intellligent people on the boards regarding TRT. I believe I have seen you post before that libido, in particular, is dependent on many elements, but primarily is finding the right balance for the individual of testosterone, estrogen, and DHT, correct?

Personally, I am having a very hard time getting OFF mesterolone. I started taking Bayer Proviron in November of 2017, to try to increase my sperm count (along with test, HCG, and HMG) to get my wife pregnant. That was successful, but now every time I try to decrease or cut out the Proviron, I feel miserable and have no libido. I have successfully replaced it with Masteron, which works well but gives me cystic acne. So now I'm back on the Proviron again, trying to find the right balance with my test dosage, and I don't seem to be able to come off the Proviron without feeling miserable.
 
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Cinder

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I wanna know what dante is smoking on with that boron post. Lol.
Free test is responsible for being a huge freak or something.
 

Rogue

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Well, yes and no, correct?

Mesterolone provides the sexual, cognitive, and other benefits of DHT, so it does replace the DHT provided by testosterone in that regard.

However, it doesn't aromatize to estrogen at all, so anyone taking only mesterolone for TRT would be missing out on all the positive benefits (as well as the negative effects) of estrogen, especially regarding fat loss and body weight regulation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835337/), brain health, heart health, bone health, and libido.

I can't find it now, but I believe there was a study done on men taking mesterolone as TRT, where they had a higher risk for osteoporosis then men taking testosterone. The only study I can find right now is this one, supporting the use of testosterone enanthate to increase bone mineral density rather than mesterolone, at least in men with secondary hypogonadism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12792150

I respect your opinion tremendously, and I consider you one of the most intellligent people on the boards regarding TRT. I believe I have seen you post before that libido, in particular, is dependent on many elements, but primarily is finding the right balance for the individual of testosterone, estrogen, and DHT, correct?

Personally, I am having a very hard time getting OFF mesterolone. I started taking Bayer Proviron in November of 2017, to try to increase my sperm count (along with test, HCG, and HMG) to get my wife pregnant. That was successful, but now every time I try to decrease or cut out the Proviron, I feel miserable and have no libido. I have successfully replaced it with Masteron, which works well but gives me cystic acne. So now I'm back on the Proviron again, trying to find the right balance with my test dosage, and I don't seem to be able to come off the Proviron without feeling miserable.
You are right Sides, you should not replace Testosterone for Proviron in your TRT. What I was implying is that 25mg of Proviron is a TRT dose and adding that to the Testosterone dose you are using for TRT, is in fact like taking twice the TRT dosage you are aiming for.
Have you check you total Testosterone level while taking the both simultaneously? That may be an indication of what you want to aim for when you start dialing your dosage.
Also to consider, is Proviron exhibits it best effect in a higher E environment. Could you be aromatizing excessively on your TRT dose?
 

DOGGCRAPP

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I wanna know what dante is smoking on with that boron post. Lol.
Free test is responsible for being a huge freak or something.
What is the problem? Some of you guys have to get out of the "ill just take drugs realm". Some people dont want to take MORE drugs or oral steroids. Ive noted time and time again during bloodwork that elite bodybuilders had a signifigant higher conversion of total testosterone to free testosterone. Ive seen this multiple times now with both juicing elite guys and elite TRT guys.

So you got boron which does nothing for total testosterone just like I said in that post. But it no doubt increases the conversion of free testosterone from total testosterone.
--------------------------------------

After only 1 week of boron supplementation of 6 mg/d, a further study by Naghii et al20 of healthy males (n = 8) found (1) a significant increase in free testosterone, which rose from an average of 11.83 pg/mL to 15.18 pg/mL; and (2) significant decreases in E2, which dropped from 42.33 pg/mL to 25.81 pg/mL. All of the inflammatory biomarkers that were measured also decreased: (1) interleukin (IL) 6, from 1.55 pg/mL to 0.87 pg/mL; (2) high-sensitivity C-reactive protein (hs-CRP) by approximately 50%, a remarkable decrease, from 1460 ng/mL to 795 ng/mL; and (3) tumor necrosis factor α (TNF-α) by approximately 30%, from 12.32 to 9.97 pg/mL. Levels of dihydrotestosterone, cortisol, and vitamin D increased slightly.

The significant decrease in the men’s plasma E2 after 1 week of boron supplementation suggests a higher rate of conversion of total testosterone (T) to free testosterone (FT) in the testosterone metabolic pathway.

-----------------------------

It is well known that approximately 98% of testosterone molecules are bound to proteins in the blood, principally to sex hormone–binding globulin (SHBG), and are not bioavailable because bound hormones cannot exit capillaries.22 Thus, the elevation of unbound free testosterone seen with boron supplementation may have significant beneficial ramifications, particularly in aging men in whom, typically, levels of SHBG increase and levels of FT decrease

-----------------------------
Another study from Mjilkovich et al. looked at how boron supplementation impacts serum vitamin D levels, but on the side, they also measured free testosterone levels. After 2 months of giving their 13 subject males 6 mg’s of daily boron (calcium fructo-borate) the levels of free testosterone had increased by 29,5% on average, a number similar to the findings of Naghii et al.

---------------------------

So I have proposed this on this board and facebook over the last few years....There have been a slew of guys on facebook that have taken my advice of 6mg morn and 6mg nite time and gotten 1.5 to 3 x the increase of free testosterone. Most of them on TRT
So whats the problem?
 

aphextwin

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What is the problem? Some of you guys have to get out of the "ill just take drugs realm". Some people dont want to take MORE drugs or oral steroids. Ive noted time and time again during bloodwork that elite bodybuilders had a signifigant higher conversion of total testosterone to free testosterone. Ive seen this multiple times now with both juicing elite guys and elite TRT guys.

So you got boron which does nothing for total testosterone just like I said in that post. But it no doubt increases the conversion of free testosterone from total testosterone.
--------------------------------------

After only 1 week of boron supplementation of 6 mg/d, a further study by Naghii et al20 of healthy males (n = 8) found (1) a significant increase in free testosterone, which rose from an average of 11.83 pg/mL to 15.18 pg/mL; and (2) significant decreases in E2, which dropped from 42.33 pg/mL to 25.81 pg/mL. All of the inflammatory biomarkers that were measured also decreased: (1) interleukin (IL) 6, from 1.55 pg/mL to 0.87 pg/mL; (2) high-sensitivity C-reactive protein (hs-CRP) by approximately 50%, a remarkable decrease, from 1460 ng/mL to 795 ng/mL; and (3) tumor necrosis factor α (TNF-α) by approximately 30%, from 12.32 to 9.97 pg/mL. Levels of dihydrotestosterone, cortisol, and vitamin D increased slightly.

The significant decrease in the men’s plasma E2 after 1 week of boron supplementation suggests a higher rate of conversion of total testosterone (T) to free testosterone (FT) in the testosterone metabolic pathway.

-----------------------------

It is well known that approximately 98% of testosterone molecules are bound to proteins in the blood, principally to sex hormone–binding globulin (SHBG), and are not bioavailable because bound hormones cannot exit capillaries.22 Thus, the elevation of unbound free testosterone seen with boron supplementation may have significant beneficial ramifications, particularly in aging men in whom, typically, levels of SHBG increase and levels of FT decrease

-----------------------------
Another study from Mjilkovich et al. looked at how boron supplementation impacts serum vitamin D levels, but on the side, they also measured free testosterone levels. After 2 months of giving their 13 subject males 6 mg’s of daily boron (calcium fructo-borate) the levels of free testosterone had increased by 29,5% on average, a number similar to the findings of Naghii et al.

---------------------------

So I have proposed this on this board and facebook over the last few years....There have been a slew of guys on facebook that have taken my advice of 6mg morn and 6mg nite time and gotten 1.5 to 3 x the increase of free testosterone. Most of them on TRT
So whats the problem?

Thanks, Dante. The guy who made the response offers very little.
 

Delt123

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What is the problem? Some of you guys have to get out of the "ill just take drugs realm". Some people dont want to take MORE drugs or oral steroids. Ive noted time and time again during bloodwork that elite bodybuilders had a signifigant higher conversion of total testosterone to free testosterone. Ive seen this multiple times now with both juicing elite guys and elite TRT guys.

So you got boron which does nothing for total testosterone just like I said in that post. But it no doubt increases the conversion of free testosterone from total testosterone.
--------------------------------------

After only 1 week of boron supplementation of 6 mg/d, a further study by Naghii et al20 of healthy males (n = 8) found (1) a significant increase in free testosterone, which rose from an average of 11.83 pg/mL to 15.18 pg/mL; and (2) significant decreases in E2, which dropped from 42.33 pg/mL to 25.81 pg/mL. All of the inflammatory biomarkers that were measured also decreased: (1) interleukin (IL) 6, from 1.55 pg/mL to 0.87 pg/mL; (2) high-sensitivity C-reactive protein (hs-CRP) by approximately 50%, a remarkable decrease, from 1460 ng/mL to 795 ng/mL; and (3) tumor necrosis factor α (TNF-α) by approximately 30%, from 12.32 to 9.97 pg/mL. Levels of dihydrotestosterone, cortisol, and vitamin D increased slightly.

The significant decrease in the men’s plasma E2 after 1 week of boron supplementation suggests a higher rate of conversion of total testosterone (T) to free testosterone (FT) in the testosterone metabolic pathway.

-----------------------------

It is well known that approximately 98% of testosterone molecules are bound to proteins in the blood, principally to sex hormone–binding globulin (SHBG), and are not bioavailable because bound hormones cannot exit capillaries.22 Thus, the elevation of unbound free testosterone seen with boron supplementation may have significant beneficial ramifications, particularly in aging men in whom, typically, levels of SHBG increase and levels of FT decrease

-----------------------------
Another study from Mjilkovich et al. looked at how boron supplementation impacts serum vitamin D levels, but on the side, they also measured free testosterone levels. After 2 months of giving their 13 subject males 6 mg’s of daily boron (calcium fructo-borate) the levels of free testosterone had increased by 29,5% on average, a number similar to the findings of Naghii et al.

---------------------------

So I have proposed this on this board and facebook over the last few years....There have been a slew of guys on facebook that have taken my advice of 6mg morn and 6mg nite time and gotten 1.5 to 3 x the increase of free testosterone. Most of them on TRT
So whats the problem?
Do you think that boron will aid significantly on higher doses of testosterone (5-600mg) too?
 

Sides

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You are right Sides, you should not replace Testosterone for Proviron in your TRT. What I was implying is that 25mg of Proviron is a TRT dose and adding that to the Testosterone dose you are using for TRT, is in fact like taking twice the TRT dosage you are aiming for.
Have you check you total Testosterone level while taking the both simultaneously? That may be an indication of what you want to aim for when you start dialing your dosage.
Also to consider, is Proviron exhibits it best effect in a higher E environment. Could you be aromatizing excessively on your TRT dose?
Well, that's the thing, of course. Proviron worked much better for me when I was taking HCG and HMG for fertility, and I was aromatizing excessively off my TRT dose due to the HCG.

Now that I have made my wife pregnant, and I have dropped the HCG and HMG from my program, I am not aromatizing so much anymore, so I would like to also drop the Proviron, as I feel that the excessive DHT is competing at the estrogen receptors with E2 and negating many of the positive benefits of estrogen.

I don't have great libido or feel well on just test and Proviron. But although I have cut down the Proviron to a quarter tab (6.25mg) per day, every time I try to drop it from my program completely, I feel absolutely miserable on the second day after cutting it out (due to the half life of Proviron...I feel bad on the first day, but really miserable on the second day after stopping Proviron, and I end up going back on.)

I believe that taking the Proviron for so long has inhibited my body's ability to metabolize testosterone into DHT by the 5-AR enzyme, and so my body isn't producing it's own DHT anymore, making me feel terrible when I try to drop the Proviron.

For reference, when I was on the fertility program and taking HCG, using 200mg test per week, at trough my total testosterone was 873 ng/dL, and estradiol (non-sensitive) was 64.7 PG/ML (high out of range). DHT, from taking one 25mg tablet per day, was measured at >1250 (high out of range) on a range from 112-955 pg/mL, and using the LC/MS/MS method DHT was measured at 280 on a range from 16-79 ng/dL. So using just one tablet of Proviron per day was putting me at almost four times the top of the normal range for DHT.

I felt better using 200mg test and 200mg Masteron per week, which put my total test on my most recent labs at 726 ng/dL (immunoassay method), with an SHBG of 10 nmol/L, and DHT measured by LC/MS/MS at 82 on a range from 16-79 ng/dL. But the Masteron gave me cystic acne, while the Proviron does not, so I am trying to dial in an appropriate dosage of Proviron.

I would really like to drop the DHT-based compounds from my program completely, and just have my body make it's own DHT by 5-AR from test again at it's own natural levels, as I felt best doing that for 27 years before I started using the Proviron for the fertility program.

But every time I try to drop the Proviron from my program now, I feel miserable, so I think that for now I am stuck being forced to supplement with some kind of DHT (Proviron or Masteron), as my body seems to have stopped making it's own.
 

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