Some thoughts and theories on PegMGF

[goonstopher]

I wrote a long post on bolex discussing why pegMGF might be getting mixed reviews. I still contest that it is because to few people understand the basics of how it works. Now don't get me wrong, I dont do primary research but i am a board rat. i read and digest and then filter every board and have done so for 9 years. Now that I am here I would like to condense some thoughts on pmgf and dosing ideas...

From a VERY simplistic and high level understanding:

pMGF and normal MGF both activate their receptors for approx 72 hours with 36+ hours being strong binding. Peg differs because it is systemic BUT should not really have longer life eccept that it will taper meaning it will float around till it finds enough receptors to take up the whole dose. During this time IGF is pretty much useless. Another Idea I have is that MGF really is a VERY close varient of IGF soooo why don't we dose it after workout or even just before workout since its activity is so long. I have no science behind this but really MGF is simply IGF-1E and most of the general ideas should be similiar (our body produces MGF post workout for a reason duh)

For a period of time after proliferation has occured due to the pMGF we will be extra ready to fuse the cells with IGF. It sounds to me that every other week protocols will be best and switching between the two. We would want the last MGF dose to be no later that Friday ofcourse also...

Nest time I use PMGF I will use 2mg a week split up as 500mg PWO Mon, tues, thurs, Fri...

Then the next week I will use a protocol like gavins for IGF. Since I have Media grade I see it as being 20mcg x 2 and then 40mcg post WO. I would do this 4 days a week on the same days as I did MGF on the previous week...

really this protocol should work indefinetly because IGF only stops working when we have no more cells to fuse...

I hope the more technically knowledgable guys on here can put their take in on this.

 

[akursus]

agreed...

I would say this is spot on...

These peptides (PegMGF, IGF long etc...) are very easy to mis-use and therefore, waste. This is really good information. I, like goonstopher, haven't done any primary reasearch on these peptides in the medical journals (YET) but I am also a board rat and I KNOW WHO TO LISTEN TO.

Goon, your recommended administration routine is a little different than the one I am going to adhere to from the "MGF Handbook" (which I scraped from www.flawlesstraining.com) but I think accomplishes the same thing. I know it adheres to the same principles. Let me quote a little from the MGF handbook under "Getting the most out of MGF:

"As I said before your natural stimulation of androgens and IGF-I are post exercise. MGF will actually inhibit the effects of these if taken at the same time because cells can not replicate and fuse at the same time. It is for this reason I suggest taking MGF around 24 hours before you workout. THis allows time for the MGF to signal replication so that post workout you will have the maximum amount of cells available. If you take IGF with it you should take the IGF post workout. THis will add to those benefits. If taking an androgen, you are probably taking a long acting form or taking it every other day. Thus there is no need to take the androgen at a special time.

Here are some sample protocols
Once a week PEG MGF/IGF
Sunday 200-400 mcg MGF you can choose to site inject if you wish. I think splitting large doses may benefit.
Monday-Fri IGF 50 mcg e/d or at least 3 times per week

Twice a week PEG MGF/ IGF
SUnday and Wed MGF 100-200 mcg"

Now you are using PEG MGF one week and IGF the next and in the handbook it is saying using PEG MGF AT LEAST 24 hours before hand (on non workout days) and then enhancing the effects by using IGF at the sites PWO. I'm probably going to go that route but I think both both routines address how to effectively use these peptides.

Thanks for making my brain get off it's arse today and think a little goonstopher!


Ursus~

 

[goonstopher]

ursus,

One thing I need to look at is why Grunt76 says constantly elevated levels of MGF are counter productive regarless of dosing protocol.

My other idea over there was this:

I was just brainstorming and thinking... What if you did pmgf on monday after workout then Wensday after workout did IGF then wenesday before bed or thursday morning (depending on workout time) you did Pmgf again then did IGF again friday after workout ect...

Basically doing each twice per week with IGF being 2 days after pmgf then doing pmgf again about 10 hours after IGF and just kept going like that...

I think in theory you would give each the optimal amount of time to be active while also making sure to hit the IGf while the new MGF cells are free to be fused.

Ursus,

Have you read anything on receptor downgrading VS a lack of cells to fuse being the cause of IGF's loss of action over time? In theory if you alter MGF and IGF in the right way there should be very little need to cycle off eccept for health or budget reasons.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

i have done just mgf for 3 weeks straight and then switched to just igf for 3. the results were better than using a combo of the 2 at the same time. i was on a low dose of gh the entire run, so dunno how that confounds your theory. i got very ripped up on just mgf, and then blew up super fast on the igf.

i actually shot the mgf at a low dose every single day, just to make sure it never cleared. if done this way you get very very cut but do not put on much size (of course when you stop and switch to the igf you blow up).

 

[goonstopher]

i have done just mgf for 3 weeks straight and then switched to just igf for 3. the results were better than using a combo of the 2 at the same time. i was on a low dose of gh the entire run, so dunno how that confounds your theory. i got very ripped up on just mgf, and then blew up super fast on the igf.

i actually shot the mgf at a low dose every single day, just to make sure it never cleared. if done this way you get very very cut but do not put on much size (of course when you stop and switch to the igf you blow up).

Thanks for your input man. I really think your experience hints to the fact that using the two together is just not that effective due to the activity life of MGF and note I use active life NOT half-life. As I stated before research suggests it is active on a receptor for very logn which make suing them together very very hard... Alternating weeks or seperating them bu 2-3 days is going to be more effective IMO.

As far as doing it everyday, I never thought of that! You have to realize that much of what we know was born on the theory of using them at the same time. Personally i think that doing 2-3 full body workouts per week or even 2 full upper nad 1 full lower and then shooting Pmgf after would allow more receptors to be active for it and allow you to use the higher doses that i think will be neede no matter when you use it because of its truely systemic nature.

 

[Kev 245]

I have also read the mgf handbook etc and done a fair bit of reading into it all, MGF should increase myoblasts at an almost exponential rate, they double, then double again etc with the exeption of a few becomming inactive, this would mean that running mgf continuously would achieve a much greater level of potential muscle cells (myoblasts) for the IGF to work with, my worry would be thats theres a limit to this pool of cells awaiting (cant remember if its differentiation or proliferation) I mean the number in which can hang about waiting for you to use the IGF. Secondly how quickly they would be used up. I was reading a while ago as well that it was beleived MGF is 4 times as potent as the IGF we use.

 

[goonstopher]

I have also read the mgf handbook etc and done a fair bit of reading into it all, MGF should increase myoblasts at an almost exponential rate, they double, then double again etc with the exeption of a few becomming inactive, this would mean that running mgf continuously would achieve a much greater level of potential muscle cells (myoblasts) for the IGF to work with, my worry would be thats theres a limit to this pool of cells awaiting (cant remember if its differentiation or proliferation) I mean the number in which can hang about waiting for you to use the IGF. Secondly how quickly they would be used up. I was reading a while ago as well that it was beleived MGF is 4 times as potent as the IGF we use.

Personally I dont believe MGF is soooo potent. People notice being very full and adding weight when they use MGF but when they stop they notice the gains dont stay. I attribute this to the proliferated cells not fusing and being destroyed. I dont have specific studies on alternating MGF and IGF because there have never been any done, this is new waters. Still there must be a sweet spot. Until we find this "sweet spot" I will try alternating weeks. I hope we can get someone willing to alternate them within the same week. I would be happy to brainstorm ideas with anyone wanting a new protocol. Again I am no expert but from everything I have read I think we are onto something here.

 

[goonstopher]

My planned PCT as far as peptides go will look something like this:

Weeks 1,3,5,10,12,14
2mg PegMGF - Dosing will be 500mcg x 4 or 1mg x 2. I am still deciding on this.

Weeks 2,4,6,11,13,15

80mcg IGF x 4 per week (this may be split throughout the day)

Note a 3 week break in between. I have no real reason for this eccept the "receptor" nonsense everyone keeps spewing and health.

I may run LBA's in between for 3 weeks since I have been such a critic of them and this would be a prime time for them to put up or shut up.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

i'm not recomending the everyday thing. i was just being a lazy ass and mixing it with my daily gh shot, LOL

i did work calves pretty much everyday, and they stayed very pumped 24-7. normally if i train them everyday they go flat.

 

[goonstopher]

i'm not recomending the everyday thing. i was just being a lazy ass and mixing it with my daily gh shot, LOL

i did work calves pretty much everyday, and they stayed very pumped 24-7. normally if i train them everyday they go flat.

I cant say yet if ED would be a good idea or not, grunt76 has told me constantly elavated levels on MGF are not a good idea but he didnt offer a reason why so this alternating week thing may counteract whatever reasoning he had. what I really was commenting on is that we don't know much yet and everything we have discussed on most board has had to do with running the two at the same time which I really dont think is a good idea. For all we know you might have been onto something is all I meant.

 

[Juice Freak]

Hey bros, just thought I'd add in how I use Peg MGF in conjuction with IGFr3. I've been running 2x daily 250mcgs saturday and sunday (non workout days) and then use the IGF-1r3 long monday, wednesday, friday, workout days alongside some growth and slin. I've theorized that using the high dosage of MGF on the weekend would stimulate a maximum amount of myoblasts waiting to be fused after mondays workout and hopefully carrying over an elevated amount of Myoblasts over to wednesdays workout as well. This would allow the igf to fuse these mybolasts that have reached a very high level.

 

[Zombato]

I agree with goonstopher that MGF post workout has just as much merit as IGF-1. Notably, Geoffrey Goldspink found that, "MGF is expressed earlier than IGF-IEa in response to exercise. We also found that, following mechanical strain and/or muscle damage, the IGF-I gene is first spliced toward MGF and then later toward IGF-IEa in rodent muscles."

What does that tell us?
That MGF splicing is prioritized by the body post-workout/injury. That is the natural order. Why? Because MGF, and not IGF-IEa, is needed foremost to begin repair. As Goldspink points out, MGF is a growth/repair factor in its own right. The protocol for taking MGF 12-24 hrs or a few days prior to workout while may aid in preparing the satellite cells for fusion, overlooks the primary purpose MGF serves - which is to aid repair immediately following injury, not before. This is particularly important when we are talking about local adminstration for local uptake.

One can argue that MGF competes with IGF receptors and therefore should be adminstered several hours before IGFr3. And that taking the latter post-work is a better protocol to seal the deal for new cells and growth. Yet, research has indicated that the carboxy-terminal peptide of MGF has a different signaling pathway from that of the IGF-I receptor domain. So no competition.

But does that mean that you can take them together?
Well, not necessarily for two reasons. First, remember that IGF splicing to MGF is prioritized by the natural body immediately following injury to aid repair. Exogenous administration should therefore resemble the body's repair protocol. Second, splitting of cells (via MGF) is needed before fusing (via IGFr3) can begin.

Well how far apart should MGF and IGFr3 be taken?
I agree with goonstopher that Kev 245's experience of growing while having taken MGF and IGF days and weeks apart points to an important piece to the puzzle. Add to that two facts. MGF is produced by the body as a pulse that does not last a long time and becomes rapidly localized in the nucleus. While the splitting may take some time, verified by researchers who are able to measure MGF levels even hours after injury, the IGF binding proteins are at the lowest post-injury. This latter fact demonstrates with certainty that the body is able and prepared to uptake IGFr3 immediately following a workout, even though MGF is prioritized and produced instantaneously by the natural body post-injury. Note also that IGF peptides produced systemically or locally and are bound (protected to extend their life) at some previous point and circulate freely. These are also made available to the damaged muscle cells/ become unbound to enable fusion. This action can occur a few minutes to a few days after damage, depending on availability of IGF-I peptides. This suggests that there is no one set time for the uptake of IGFr3. Rather the muscles will accept it throughout the repair phase after MGF has been localized.

In conclusion, MGF taken immediately following a workout is most plausible. The MGF should be chased by IGFr3, preferably in two doses - the first possibly an hour post-workout and the second half a day or so later.

Reference: http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/20/4/232

 

[Zombato]

Three additional considerations -

1) MGF is markedly up-regulated in exercised and damaged muscle. Therefore the most effective time to administer it is immediately post work out. If you happen to have administered it a day or two before your workout, and this is especially true of the PEG version, it simply is going to float around the body and may hopefully find its way to the target receptor where damage occurred. This clearly is less effective. If you shoot it locally right after exercise, what happens? It gets up-regulated quickly where it is needed to begin recovery.

2) MGF has a distinct activity compared to that of mature IGF-I in that it can increase myoblasts proliferation, but it totally inhibits the myotubes formation. This intuitively makes sense, since repair is prioritized over growth. The important thing to note here is that growth will follow, but only if MGF is not present. Evidently, and this may vary based on a host of factors, that MGF detection levels peak at 0-24 hrs post injury and regress to day zero levels by day 7 when its work is done. See 'Expression & Splicing...' article below.

It is interesting to note that after 0-1 day the decrease in MGF expression is accompanied by a reciprocal increase in IGF-IEa. This indicates that, following mechanical stimulation or muscle damage, the IGF-I gene is first spliced to produce MGF and then later to produce the more common IGF-IEa transcript. It would therefore make most sense, and concur with Grunt, that exogenous IGF be introduced after at least a day or more of MGF administration. Certainly MGF and IGF can be taken weeks apart, but let's not forget that in the natural body, binded IGF is present at most times to unbind and muscle expressed IGF released to attach to needed receptors shortly after MGF is cleared. Furthermore, IGF is needed to close the loop for growth more so 3 days after damage. For me, the logical thing to do is to take IGF 3-5 days after MGF administration in the same area that you trained. This therefore presents a staggered MGF-IGF cycling. For example, if you worked out biceps on day 1, shoot MGF directly to the biceps post-workout and wait 3-5 days before shooting IGF in the biceps. This can go on across all muscle groups where you inject MGF. To make this work you’ll need to keep a log so you know what to inject where and when.

3) MGF shows greater proliferative rates of mononucleated myocytes than cells transfected with IGF-1Ea. The point here is that IGF-1 expressed by muscle is also understood to do what MGF does, i.e. to activate satellite cells, though at a much lower rate. So IGFr3 taken immediately post work is least effective. Not forgetting that our body will have naturally manufactured MGF post-workout therefore inhibiting IGF's ability to proliferate anyway. And as far as IGF’s functionality to fuse cells is concerned, well that ain’t gonna happen until proliferation has subsided after a few days when MGF has done its work.

References:

http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/full/549/2/409#F2

**broken link removed**

 

[mslmn]

Anyone tried pmgf and igf, the way it was explained in this thread, with any better resultes then the usual recomended method.

 

[Carlsberg]

Would like to see grunts take on this!

 

[the vanilla gorilla]

My planned PCT as far as peptides go will look something like this:

Weeks 1,3,5,10,12,14
2mg PegMGF - Dosing will be 500mcg x 4 or 1mg x 2. I am still deciding on this.

Weeks 2,4,6,11,13,15

80mcg IGF x 4 per week (this may be split throughout the day)

Note a 3 week break in between. I have no real reason for this eccept the "receptor" nonsense everyone keeps spewing and health.

I may run LBA's in between for 3 weeks since I have been such a critic of them and this would be a prime time for them to put up or shut up.

In the weeks you use PegMGF will you be pinning immediately PWO? sub q or IM?

 

[Wonderman]

Lets see if i understand

If I understand this correctly, I will need to inject IM 500mcg bilaterally into musles worked with PegMGF. 4 days later I can inject into those same muslces IM with 80mcg bilaterally of IGF-lr3. This being the case. does this mean, as long as I am working different muscles (which I obvioulsy do), I can continue to shoot Pegmgf Bilaterally 4 days before hitting the same muscle group with IGF 1 LR3 IM bilaterally. I can keep doing this over and over again with my different muscle groups with my workout refimen all week every week. How many weeks in a row can I do this?

Also, would this option work better or should I try the other fella's(forgive me, my mind has gone blank) idea on 1 week all pegmgf pwo (500mcg bilaterally) and the next week all IGF -1 LR3 PWO(80mcg bilaterally) For how may weeks can I do this??

AM I ON THE RIGHT TRACK

 

[Raging Bull]

I cant say yet if ED would be a good idea or not, grunt76 has told me constantly elavated levels on MGF are not a good idea but he didnt offer a reason why so this alternating week thing may counteract whatever reasoning he had. what I really was commenting on is that we don't know much yet and everything we have discussed on most board has had to do with running the two at the same time which I really dont think is a good idea. For all we know you might have been onto something is all I meant.

Constant elevated levels of MGF will give the receptors in the GI trackt, aka all of your "organs" more of a chance to latch on and cause them to grow also. Just my 2 cents.

 

[MadCrzy]

Is MGF taken IM or sub-q? And is IGF-1 the same?

 

[papapumpsd]

Is MGF taken IM or sub-q? And is IGF-1 the same?

MGF will act as IGF-1 (GDA) if injected. In essence, MGF does not work as historically thought.

This is discussed in Dat's thread.