• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
ddd
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
Anabolic Hormones Store Banner
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
LandmarkChem Email Banner
Medtech Store Banner
Bruce Labs Store banner
qtropin
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

STORY TIME WITH LATS PT. 5

LATS

Moderator / FOUNDING Member / NPC Judge
Staff member
Moderator
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
7,158
okay, here we go..a little late but, better late than never. the gentleman in question is a nabba competitor that resides in europe. i have talked to him on and off for months now and since he has a little different take on things than normal , i decided to write about him. he has done very well in nabba contests and is known in europe but, if ya do not follow the euro scene you may not know him. he is very well read in exercise phys and comes from a physical therapy background. he diffinitely has a different take on working out than normal and his drug routine is much different than what we here in the states are used to reading. as of this writing, he is 268 pounds and fairly lean. he stands 5'8 or as he puts it "thereabouts". he is thirty six years old.
his workouts are not normal in regards to what we read about in most muscle magazines. he trains 3 to 4 days a week and groups his bodyparts by upper and lower. he believes that you can not ever isolate any muscle group so why bother to try. so why not give the whole upper body a chance to recup rather than constantly tearing it down?? he also believes in very low volume and believes in alternating between muscle groups. example: he will come in to train upper body. he will warmup with flat db press for two warmups. he then does one all out set for about 8 to 10 reps. he then will go and do low pulley rows for one all out set. the rest time between all exercises is two minutes, which he keeps a close watch on. he will then hit a side lateral movement for again, one all out set. then back to chest where he will go to smith machine inclines for one all out set. after a brief rest he moves to chins where he will do one set all out. next is smith machine overhead presses for one allout set. next is pec dek where he hits one last set for chest. then db rows for the last set of back then on to the last set of delts which is rear delt laterals. he then heads for the smith machine again and does one all out set of close grip benches. this is follows by standing db curls..then on to pushdowns followed by hammer or reverse curls. he ends the workout with one set of weighted crunches then one all out steep incline situps. he then takes a day off and proceeds with the next workout which is lower body. he starts with smith machine squats with feet out in front of his hips a little. after two warmups, its one all out set. he then goes to the seated leg curl and performs one all out set...the typical two minutes rest applies. after the leg curls he goes to the leg press which he performs with the feet a kittle high on the platform so as to not irritate the kness. he performs one all out set. then on to stiff legged deads using dumbells. again, one all out set to failure. lunges finish the routine. he then heads to calves where he performs two all out sets on either the leg press or the donkey calf machine. he believes that seated are a waste of time (i concur completely) as they do not hit the gastroc effectively. another day or two of rest and he starts over.
the way he performs his sets are also different. he believes in no momentum in the beginning of the set. he does a three count negative and a contolled positive. a slight pause at the top and down it goes again...only after he completes atleast 6 reps this way and believes he can not complete another rep, will he start using a explosive movement to try and maintain a longet time under tension and fry what is left of the muscle. he can usually get another two reps this way. he believes the biggest mistake in bodybuilding is watching the pros train. loose form and choppy reps are not his style but, when i asked him why he belives they do this he responded " they have lost the ability to train. they reply heavily on the drugs and for the genetically gifted that type of workouts work..but, that does not mean that they could not make better progress the right way...plus, i would rather save my joints and place the muscle under the load....i like the fact that i never have had a serious injury" when i asked how the pros can rtespond to the higher volume he said " look , you can bring up many pros who seemingly respond to high volume..again they are very gifted..most of us are not that gifted..plus the sooner i am out of the gym the sooner i can eat. that is where the growing happens" he also believes , for example, that if you can not stop the weight in the contracted position it is much to heavy..i.e. side lateral and rows. now on to DRUGS!!!
he is not a big believer in large amounts of test..he just does not care for it..he loves tren/ fina. and he likes to stick to milder anabolics in addition to the tren. he does use low amounts of test in most of his cycles. no higher than 500-600 mgs. but, tren is admistered everyday along with , usually, winny. he usually tries to maintain a low bf % all year. this is the highest bodyweight he has gone and does not feel comfortable in it. he usually tries to gain no more than twenty pounds over his contest weight.. he stated that when he has done high amounts of test in the past, he had to use anti e's to keep the bloating down and just did care for the feeling of the test. when he is off cycle he still is not completely off. he states that he will still run one dose of dbol after his workouts and on his rest days first thing in the morning. he stated this allows for his htpa to come back to a more normal range because of how fast the dbol is in and out of his system. usually 30 mgs once a day.. he loves gh when he can afford it but, like to run it atleast for 3 months..if not he will not bother. he does not like insulin..he stated that regardless of what he did, he got fat on it...i asked about site injection with anabolics...he laughed. he stated that it just does not work and he does not care who says it does..he said that even with esterless compounds it is a usless proposition. he does like injecting all over the body but, not for the growth but, because he like to give certain areas i.e. his ass, a rest. i asked about synthol. he stated that he does believe that it can help stretch the tissue allowing for more growth. he did it for a period of time in his delts and he belives it help tremendously..he also stated that if you can tell if a guy has done it ,than he has done it wrong. he staes that most of his cycles are 24 weeks with a 2 month "off" period.
BACK TO THE WORKOUT. he did make a statement i found interesting. he stated that we do not rest long enough between sets. he said one of the reasons he alternates bodyparts the way he does is so that the other bodypart can rest. he stated that we ignore the fact that the "nerves that fire the muscle" need to take a longer rest to give them full power. he said that shorter rest periods are not "wrong" for a different stimulus but, the vast majority of our sets should be with long rest periods. he statde the only way to do this and be out of the gym in a timely fashion is to alternate. i threw some words at him and made him tell in a word his first thought....here it goes. BODYBUILDING- "religion" DECA- "overrated for the money" TRAINING- "science" DAVE PALUMBO- "underrated" EUROPEAN BODYBUILDING- "awesome" DORIAN YATES "God" RONNIE COLEMAN- "alien" ARNOLD- "who" SERGIO- " no one word can describe him" FLEX WHEELER- "a waste of potential" GYMS OF EUROPE- "hardcore" LOVE OF YOUR LIFE- "the gym..she never lets me down" stay tune for prt 6 tomorrow...:D
 

MAINEVENT

MODERATOR / FOUNDING Member / Featured Member
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 8, 2002
Messages
4,911
interesting

Thanks Lats. As always, I enjoy storytime.

Its nice to see that people do things differently (train/drug/etc) and the fact that anything CAN work for any given individual.
 

Trulyhuge

New member
Registered
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
529
pretty interesting read there LATS. now, if you could start responding to my damn pm's we would be all set!:mad:

TH
 

raybravo

New member
Registered
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
338
this is just the indivudual presenting his way of looking at things , i mean things like spot injecting steroids will not help but synthol helps , i dont see why that is true . maybe synthol stays in the injected part longer , but with frequent injects , i see steroids bringing about the same effects .

also with training, he's true u cant isolate a muscle 100 % , but its more about mental focus for me , i pretty much split my training into upper body days and lower body days too , but i have to do done with a muscle , that way i can have the calculation that i'm working the muscle harder than my last workout so to speak , it helps keep the focus on ur job out there , but then again , maybe he's diff and he is used to this way .
 

MAINEVENT

MODERATOR / FOUNDING Member / Featured Member
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 8, 2002
Messages
4,911
Lats

Whats his rep range like and does he do straight sets, or drops, or negatives?
 

JETHRO TULL

FOUNDING Member / Featured Member / Verified Custo
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Verified Customer
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
8,446
Lats...thank you. I can't wait to read these stories.

I have noticed when I alternate chest and back sets...I actually can lift more and don't get as tired. <plus big pumps!> I am going to try this method after my dieting is done.

Thanks again.
 
Last edited:

homonunculus

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
1,582
As usual...

... I got that warm and fuzzy feeling... LOL

Couple thoughts:

I wonder if the Dbol and restoration of HPTA thing is just his way of rationalizing being on all the time (not knocking it, just wondering).

As far as the training volume, it is interesting that there are very few (IFBB) pro's who don't train w/ a high volume approach. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't know any pro's personally, but this is the impression I have gotten over the years.

I have been doing the rotation of exercise thing for years, as well, although I rarely will pair two large muscle groups (like back and legs). More often it will be chest, shoulders, chest, shoulders, etc - muscle groups that will be used when training each other to a certain degree. The sacrifice in training them together in terms of strength seems to be nearly compensated for in alternaing (e.g. chest press then side laterals, the pec fly, they OH press, etc.) and works better for me b/c the recovery is more "pure" (e.g. shoulders are not hit w/ chest 1 day, then by themselves 2 days later).

-Randy
 

BrooklynJuice

New member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
715
DC is cruisin around 300# and does 1 exercise per bodypart/1 set. He doesnt compete because he doesnt have faith in his genes (i believe?) but does train guy that compete. And thats FAR from high volume.
 

homonunculus

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
1,582
Hey Brooklyn

BrooklynJuice said:
DC is cruisin around 300# and does 1 exercise per bodypart/1 set. He doesnt compete because he doesnt have faith in his genes (i believe?) but does train guy that compete. And thats FAR from high volume.
Gosh, yes - there are many of exceptions of VERY large guys that don't do high volume. (Thank God for Dorian!) Just an observation that it *seems* the the majority (more than 50%) of the top IFBB pros *seem* to train in a high volume fashion. I was asking from more info. from those in the know r.e. how pro's train. I think Big A and Phil are represented here as 2 pro's who go with a lower volume approach.

*IF* this is the case - most upper level pro's train w/ high volume, it seems interesting that so many of these guys could be making a training mistake, i.e., not training in a style that optimizes size. Of course there are many ways to look at it:

-The high volume thing is a myth and I'm just a silly ignoramous who has fallen for it.

-The guys with pro quality genetics could train almost any way and get the same results. Their training responsiveness is so tremendous that even a less than optimal stimulus (hypothetically talking about a high volume approach) will take them so near their genetic limits that it is nearly indistinguishable from what would be accomplished if they had trained DC style or as the guy LATS interviewed does.

- Coincidentally, the genetics of most of those who can make it to the tip top upper echelons of the pro ranks ends up being such that training with a high volume IS the best way to grow. Those of us lesser beings must resort to other (lower volume) approaches to optimize growth.

- Once the pro's of today catch on to how it really should be done, as they've been making mistakes for years now, pro BB'ing will be bumped up to a higher level.

My original comment was actually more of an observation that I had hoped those "in the know" cold confirm or deny. I was in no way insinuating that VERY impressive physiques cannot be developed using a lower volume approach. This would be silly, as Dorian has proved it (although the issue of just what a "warm-up" set really is has come up), and Phil and Big A are living proof!

-Randy
 

xcelbeyond

The "Elder" Mod
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
7,227
Re: Hey Brooklyn

homonunculus said:
-The guys with pro quality genetics could train almost any way and get the same results. Their training responsiveness is so tremendous that even a less than optimal stimulus (hypothetically talking about a high volume approach) will take them so near their genetic limits that it is nearly indistinguishable from what would be accomplished if they had trained DC style or as the guy LATS interviewed does.
Unfortunately, as much as we'd like to believe differently, this is the case. If there were a "certain" protocol that guaranteed muscle mass, there'd be a whole lot more monsters walking around out there!

xcel
 

BrooklynJuice

New member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
715
Well I used to be a personal trainer as a late teen in a the only Golds in Brooklyn which was bought by NYSC. Anyway Nasser's cousin lifted there and Nasser occasionally was in there, although I believe in lives in cali? Anyway this guy sammy won the NPC in 97 or 98 and got his pro card. He was a FREAK I have no clue what he was using but obviously had good connects. He walked around 5'9 280 and about 4%. His skin was so tight it looked like plastic when he started to sweat. Anyway his training was a very low volume, unless he was training on the DL somewhere else. Anyway he got his GF pregnant (another case, NEVER COUNT ON AS as BIRTH CONTROL!) and got married and never competed again. But he looked very similiar to Nasser genetic wise.
 

Mr_Magoo

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
1,828
i agree with what lats buddy says, for example if im doing a HIT workout of Dips, flyes, hammer strength incline press with a delt workout of Overhead db presses, laterals, and cybex behind neck press i go with dips, then i go to overhead db press, then to flyes, then to laterals
 

homonunculus

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
1,582
Not sure you're following me...

BrooklynJuice said:
Well I used to be a personal trainer as a late teen in a the only Golds in Brooklyn which was bought by NYSC. Anyway Nasser's cousin lifted there and Nasser occasionally was in there, although I believe in lives in cali? Anyway this guy sammy won the NPC in 97 or 98 and got his pro card. He was a FREAK I have no clue what he was using but obviously had good connects. He walked around 5'9 280 and about 4%. His skin was so tight it looked like plastic when he started to sweat. Anyway his training was a very low volume, unless he was training on the DL somewhere else. Anyway he got his GF pregnant (another case, NEVER COUNT ON AS as BIRTH CONTROL!) and got married and never competed again. But he looked very similiar to Nasser genetic wise.
Brooklyn,

I'm simply trying to get some insider info. from guys who talk to, train along side, have insider knowledge of what the pro's really do. I have not doubt that every guy on this board knows a guy or knows of a guy or knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy that trains w/ low volume and is gigantic.

What was Sammy's last name?... If those stats are correct, he IS as big as Nasser. Markus Ruhl competed at 280 at the last Olympia. Sammy must have stepped on stage around 265 (at the least) when he got his pro card.

-Randy
 

BrooklynJuice

New member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2003
Messages
715
All I knew him as was "sammy" and yes it had the gifts to mke a splash. Funny I believe he was had a high level gov position, imagine that one...
 

LATS

Moderator / FOUNDING Member / NPC Judge
Staff member
Moderator
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
7,158
I FORTUNATELY GET TO TALK TO MANY OF THE TOP GUYS, although we are not "buddies". most do train in a high volume fashion. i would venture to guess that 80% train the high volume way compared to low volume styles. i do agree with randy that all of them can not be wrong. dorian made low volume training more excepted but, can we name any other top pros competeing today that follow his approach?? lets take a second to think about this..high volume advocates are ruhl, atwood, cormier, coleman, olivia, wheeler , priest, titus, kamali, james, nasser, levrone, cutler, anthony, gunter, prince, dillet, chicerillo, ect ect. i am not saying that they have the right idea or that it is better than low volume but, they can not all be wrong. now i like phil's approach more than the standard hit program. i also have used with good success the dc program (i personally would like to see a picture of dc myself. not because i doubt his stats but, because i have talked to him a couple of times and am very curious). so, it is my opinion, take it for what it is worth, that many of the observations i have made are the opposite of what hit advocates proclaim. it seems to me that genetic "superiors" seem to grow much better than others using the hit method....not all but most. dorian was from another planet but, no one has been able to accomplish what he did with the same approach...how do we explain that?? persoanlly i figure most do not do it because a) it just may be to uncomfortable b) need more time in getting into a "groove" with each exercise c) can not do it all the time because of burnout, injuries ect d) it does not work for the majority..... NOW CLASS...LETS DISCUSS :D
 

patk

FOUNDING Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
616
Great read...thanks for taking the time to post Lats! Take care.


patk
 

homonunculus

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
1,582
OK, some more thoughts

HEre goes:

What is the best stimulus for skeletal muscle growth?...

INcreasing fiber size (and number) is best accomplished in mammals (this hasn't been done in humans experimentally, but the animal results are tremendous leading me to believe the same would be true in us) not by performing short bursts of maximal effort (wt. training), but by chronically overloading the muscle. Two models you may have heard of:

Stretch overload: often by hanging a weight (~10% of body weight) form the bird's (quail's) wing. The anterior lattisumus dorsi muscle (akin to the trap in humans holding a weight in the hand) will more than DOUBLE in size IN A MONTH! This is not all swelling (although there is some). This would be like a 200lb guy carrying around a 20lb dumbell ALL DAY LONG. (By the way, there is some info. suggesting that steroids do not enhanve muscle growth in this situation.)

COmpensatory muscle hypertrophy: REmove 1 muscle that works in conjuction w/ another (usually removeing one of the calf muscles) will increase the other muscle size about 30-50% in a month. The muscle that is left is used all day (or when the animal walks / limps) and has to compensate.

Now compare wt. training:

-High volume: 20 sets of 10 - 15 reps. 30 seconds / set x 20 sets = 10 minutes of actual contraction time. Make 'em long 1 min sets and its 20 min / day.

-Low volume: 3 sets totaling maybe 2 minutes / day (less than 5 if you include warm-ups).

If you can gain 20lb of muscle in a year, you're kicking ass. Take a 220 lb BB'er with maybe 140 lb muscle. the 20 lb increase is less than a 20% increase in 1 year! This is <3% in 1 month (on average).

So, what's my point?... With wt. training, we're playing around with a VERY suboptimal stimulus as is, compared to what skeletal muscle is capable of doing. There are many other things to consider that are important for muscle growth when we're doig normal exercise: nutrition and recovery are the obvious biggies

The variability in training gains is IMMENSE in resistance training studies, as we all know. COnsider a true hard gainer in comparison to BIGKIWI (gained like 40lb in his 1st 4-5 mo. of training.) There is one study I know of where the stimulus was controlled exactly by the researchers - they used electrical stimulation to evoke the contractions. No pussying out / psychological influences on the training stimulus b/c the muscle was going to contract no matter what. It was a very strong stimulus for growth. Over about 2 mo. of training with guys who all had about the same wt. training background, the range in muscle size increase (cross-sectional area) was like 5% to 18%. TRAINING WAS EXACTLY THE SAME, but the gains were dramatically different. Genetics?... Nutrition?... Something else?...

On the other hand, I believe that you can overtrain the muscle itself w/ wt. training and prevent growth. This would seeminly not make sense, since it is soooo far the type of chronic stimululs (see above) that maximizes muscle growth. I think this apparent paradox (how can wt. training overtrain if chronic overload causes such great growth?) kind of gets tho the heart of the matter. RESISTANCE training is a much more INTENSE (meaning amount of force produced by the muscle ) stimulus than the chronic overload models above. The models are examples of very high VOLUME of training - the load is there basically all the time, but the intensity is relatively low. Recall the 20lb dumbell example- most 200lb BB'ers would not do shrugs w/ 20lb DB's. In the compensatory hypertrophy model, the animals limp around, keeping the load on the muscle that is left low, until the muscle has grown. (I have more thoughts on this, but will save for later.)

Basically, it goes back to the old idea: you can train hard, you can train long, but you can't do both. The balance of intensity and volume must be such that it does not evoke a stimulus that can't be adapted to. LATS hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the pain / discomfort of Dorian style training: Dorian trained very hard, but not long. Many pro's train long, but not as hard as Dorian.

So, what is optimal?... The chronic overload models suggest that higher volume may have an advantage b/c it mimics that feature of longer time under tension. On the other hand, Dorian "proved" that this can be made up for by training heavier. When it comes down to it, as LATS said, few people can train in Dorian's style - they just haven't got the blood and guts (sorry, couldn't resist). I don't think that Dorian COULD have trained w/ a high volume approach. His personality and drive would have forced him to train too hard and he would have overdone it (my guess).

Of course, we cannot train 12 hr a day, so a high volume approach must "make up" for that by lifting heavier laods (shrugss w/ 120lb db's instead of just 20lb).

Now there's the style of Ronnie C. to think about: high intensity AND high volume!!! :eek:

-Randy
 

Mr_Magoo

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
1,828
humoncoulous has made a good point that we bring up over and over, and that it personal preference and mind-set, dorian could not do high volume bc he would train too hard for it, i am thesame way. well, actually considering how dedicated dorian was to his training if he decided to do high volume he could force himself to hold back
 

JETHRO TULL

FOUNDING Member / Featured Member / Verified Custo
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Verified Customer
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
8,446
EXCELLENT THOUGHTS!~

VERY VERY INTERESTING.............:rolleyes: :cool:
 

Macdaddy

FOUNDING Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 13, 2002
Messages
499
Lats,
Your buddy stated that he likes Tren/Fina and low dose Test. What type of dosage does he use for the tren/fina? I hear that Dorian was a huge Tren fan. Maybe there is some corolation here??

Macdaddy
 

Staff online

  • LATS
    Moderator / FOUNDING Member / NPC Judge

Forum statistics

Total page views
501,883,787
Threads
123,352
Messages
2,347,931
Members
155,061
Latest member
JAZZ
Top