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Dat's - CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)

Underscoring the importance of 3 hour GH pulsation

The following snippet (from Merck Research Laboratories) & referenced study are fascinating because it is just one more piece of evidence that points to how exogenous Growth Hormone should be administered so as to adapt it to the 3 hour pulsation of natural GH release.

It is ridiculous (in my opinion) to try to make the GHRHs & GHRPs release Growth Hormone in conformance to the way exogenous GH is currently administered (i.e. in non-pulsatile chronically elevated fashion) and/or condemn them for failing to do so.

It is exogenous Growth Hormone that needs to be made to conform to the pattern induced by GHRHs & GHRPs.


Published in Endocrine Reviews 1997, 18 (5): 621-645

Peptidomimetic Regulation of Growth Hormone Secretion

Roy G. Smith, Lex H. T. Van der Ploeg, Andrew D. Howard, Scott D. Feighner, Kang Cheng, Gerard J. Hickey, Matthew J. Wyvratt, Jr., Mike H. Fisher, Ravi P. Nargund and Arthur A. Patchett


Merck Research Laboratories, Rahway, New Jersey 07065


GH secretion is markedly pulsatile in all species studied (140, 141, 142, 143, 144). The biological significance of episodic secretion has been illustrated in GH-deficient animals in which GH replacement is more efficient in improving growth when given in a pulsatile pattern rather than by constant infusion (145). Before describing how we believe the peptidomimetic GH secretagogues themselves are involved in regulating pulsatility, we should first review what is currently understood about the control of pulsatile GH release.

The experimental evidence points to GH periodicity being self-entraining. For example, when GH is given exogenously at intervals of 3 h, approximately in phase with endogenous GH pulses, the exogenous and endogenous GH peaks become entrained (146). If the exogenous pulses are repeated more frequently (every 90 min), the regular endogenous pulsatility disappears (146). Entrainment of the 3-h pulses can be accomplished also by administering a GHRH analog (147) or L-692,585 instead of GH at 3-h intervals (7, 87)

References:

7 - Fairhall KM, Mynett A, Thomas GB, Robinson ICAF 1996 Central and peripheral effects of peptide and nonpeptide GH secretagogues of GH release in vivo. In: Bercu BB, Walker RF (eds) Growth Hormone Secretagogues. Springer-Verlag, New York, pp 219–236

87 - Fairhall KM, Mynett A, Smith RG, Robinson ICAF 1995 Consistent GH responses to repeated injections of GH-releasing hexapeptide (GHRP-6) and the nonpeptide GH secretagogue, L-692,585. J Endocrinol 145:417–426

140 - Jansson JO, Eden S, Isaksson O 1985 Sexual dimorphism in the control of growth hormone secretion. Endocr Rev 6:128–150

141 - Davis SL, Ohlson DL, Klindt J, Anfinson MS 1977 Episodic growth hormone secretory patterns in sheep: relationship to gonadal steroid hormones. Am J Physiol 233:E519

142 - Steiner RA, Stewart JK, Barber J, Koerker D, Gooner CJ, Brown A, Illner P, Gale CC 1978 Somatostatin: a physiological role in the regulation of growth hormone secretion in the adolescent male baboon. Endocrinology 102:1587

143 - Miller JD, Tannenbaum GS, Colle E, Guyda HJ 1982 Daytime pulsatile growth hormone secretion during childhood and adolescence. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 55:989

144 - Chihara K, Minamitani N, Kaji H, Kodama H, Kita T, Fujita T 1983 Human pancreatic growth hormone-releasing factor stimulates release of growth hormone in conscious unrestrained male rabbits. Endocrinology 113:2081

145 - Gevers EF, Wit JM, Robinson ICAF 1996 Growth, growth hormone (GH)-binding protein, and GH receptors are differentially regulated by peak and trough components of the GH secretory pattern in the rat. Endocrinology 137:1013–1018

146 - See Carlsson below

147 - Clark RG, Robinson ICAF 1985 Growth hormone (GH) responses to multiple injections of a fragment of human GH-releasing factor in conscious male and female rats. J Endocrinol 106:281–289

MY NOTE: The full study was not available.

Endogenous growth hormone (GH) secretion in male rats is synchronized to pulsatile GH infusions given at 3-hour intervals, Carlsson LMS, Jansson JO, Endocrinology 1990 126:6–10

ABSTRACT:

The feedback effects of GH on its own secretion were studied in conscious male rats receiving intermittent iv infusions of human GH. Male Sprague-Dawley rats (150-180 g) were implanted with double bore iv cannula. Infusions of human GH (hGH) or buffer were given for up to 32 h, while frequent microsamples (20 microliters) of blood were withdrawn simultaneously using an automatic blood-sampling system.

The endogenous GH pulses became synchronized to pulsatile hGH infusions (2.1 U/kg.infusion) given at 3-h intervals. After two or more hGH infusions episodic GH release was present in most rats, and all endogenous pulses occurred concomitantly with the hGH infusions. After 24 h of hGH treatment the endogenous pulses were still synchronized to the every 3 h hGH infusions. In addition, the pulse amplitude was lower than that in vehicle-treated animals (74 +/- 12 vs. 215 +/- 35 ng/ml; P less than 0.01).

At this time a complete (1.5-h) phase shift of the 3-hourly hGH infusions markedly suppressed endogenous GH pulses in all rats. In another experiment where the same daily dose of hGH was given in iv infusions every 1.5 h instead of every 3 h, the endogenous GH pulses were irregular, infrequent, and suppressed. Infusions at 3-h intervals of a lower dose of hGH (0.42 U/kg.infusion) did not affect the timing or amplitude of endogenous GH pulses compared to those in buffer-infused animals. The endogenous GH pulses were not synchronized between animals given 0.42 U/kg hGH or buffer at 3-h intervals.

It is concluded that the endogenous GH pulses in male rats became synchronized to intermittent infusions of hGH at 3-h (but not 1.5-h) intervals. The fact that there were no endogenous pulses between the 3-hourly infusions suggests that the feedback effect of a GH pulse lasts for approximately 3 h. This mechanism may be involved in the control of the GH secretory pattern in male rats.​
 

Yep.

"Healthy older men given 1 or 4 mg GHRH s.c. twice daily for 3 months responded with elevated GH and IGF-I concentrations and dose-dependent changes in body composition (15). Pilot studies in women revealed that the 4 mg GHRH dose could not be tolerated due to marked skin reactivity triggered by histamine release. On the other hand, administration of smaller doses of GHRH-1,29) once daily for as long as 4 months stimulated GH release only briefly after each injection in elderly adults, and did not sustain IGF-I elevations or alter physical endpoints and performance outcomes (10, 13). The current intensive regimen of a high dose of GHRH administered twice daily significantly increased GH and IGF-I production and induced body-compositional and functional improvements in healthy older women. Whether the slightly longer half-life of GHRH-1,44 compared with that of GHRH-1,29 also contributed to these response differences is not known (1)."

References:

1. Giustina A & Veldhuis JD. Pathophysiology of the neuroregulation of growth hormone secretion in experimental animals and the human. Endocrine Review 1998 19 717–797

10. Vittone J, Blackman MR, Busby-Whitehead J, Tsiao C, Stewart KJ, Tobin J, Stevens T, Bellantoni MF, Rogers MA, Baumann G, Roth J, Harman SM & Spencer RG. Effects of single nightly injections of growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH 1-29) in healthy elderly men. Metabolism: Clinical and Experimental 1997 46 89–96

13. Khorram O, Laughlin GA & Yen SSC. Endocrine and metabolic effects of long-term administration of [Nle27]growth hormone-releasing hormone-(1-29)-NH2 in age-advanced men and women. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 1997 82 1472–1479

15. Veldhuis JD, Patrie JT, Frick K, Weltman JY & Weltman A. Sustained GH and IGF-I responses to prolonged high-dose twice-daily GHRH stimulation in middle-aged and older men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 2004 89 6325–6330​
 
How does it effect your stomach?

Thanks for bringing this up.

The only thing that comes close to being on point in my quick scan through my own database is skin reactions to 4mgs of GHRH.

"Pilot studies in women revealed that the 4 mg GHRH dose could not be tolerated due to marked skin reactivity triggered by histamine...

...after s.c. injection of 1 mg GHRH twice daily in elderly women. Systemic release of histamine was not observed." - CLINICAL STUDY Administration of recombinant human GHRH-1,44-amide for 3 months reduces abdominal visceral fat mass and increases physical performance measures in postmenopausal women , Johannes D Veldhuis, European Journal of Endocrinology, 2005, Vol 153, Issue 5, 669-677

Sorry I have nothing on point for you at the moment.

But a rise in histamine probably occurs whether it is from GHRH or Somatostatin inhibition. The key though is how sensitive you will be to small changes.

So thats why I was asking how do they seem to effect your stomach?

I have problems with my stomach burning up. But this problem started even before I had ever taken GHRP-6 and mod GRF(1-29).

It pisses me off because the doctor I went to didn't thoroughly try to find out what was wrong with me and just said "It happens, take some famotidine"

It's almost as if my stomach lining is weak and the gastric acid is eating my stomach up from the inside. Sort of like an ulcer. But the tests for bacteria came back negative.

I'm worried it might be something like the Zollinger-Ellison syndrome
 
Last edited:
Hey Dat. As an expert you probably know the answer to this one ;)

Wich kind of GH (+ dosage) is used for height growth? I don't know if my fuses are shut or not, but regardless of that I am using GHRP-6 at the moment (low
doses for health benefits).

I would really see height growth as a bonus. So changing to another type of GH wouldn't be a problem.

PS: I'm sorry if my English is bad.
 
Last edited:
I have problems with my stomach burning up. But this problem started even before I had ever taken GHRP-6 and mod GRF(1-29).

It pisses me off because the doctor I went to didn't thoroughly try to find out what was wrong with me and just said "It happens, take some famotidine"

It's almost as if my stomach lining is weak and the gastric acid is eating my stomach up from the inside. Sort of like an ulcer. But the tests for bacteria came back negative.

I'm worried it might be something like the Zollinger-Ellison syndrome

Well proton-pump inhibitors work by reducing stomach acid out put. OTC Prilosec does this...there is now a generic available (Omeprazole). You take one pill a day & it works for 24 hours. You can even cut the pill in half & take that as you heal. Identical in all ways but patent differentiation :) to the more expensive prescription Nexium from the same ruthless company.

This will reduce the irritation...far, far better then any other OTC.

Next you can have your doctor prescribe sulcrafate. This is like a chalk pill that you take on an empty stomach before a meal and it coats the lining of the stomach protecting it from gastic juice.

Cissus Quandrangularis an herb you can buy yourself was shown in a study to be as effective as sulcrafate. A better estimate would be less effective but helpful nonetheless IF you can not get sulcrafate.

Next if you are reducing gastric acid via proton-pump inhibitor or IF you are having some digestive problems you may want to use Pancreatin by NOW Foods. This brand is effective and contains 4X Pancreatin 500 mgs which supplies Amylase: 50000 USP, Protease: 50000 USP & Lipase: 9000 USP. This is identical in formula and as effective as the prescription Pancreatin but way way way cheaper.

As you probably already know some foods such as raw onions, garlic & coffee may exacerbate the problem so either eliminate them or limit when you have them.

Probably an empty stomach hurts far worse then a full stomach. When you feel pain on an empty stomach buffer it with water, some food or something that coats the lining properly like sucrafate.

Finally just a simple Tums/Rolaids bicarbonate pill can help if the burn becomes more esophageal.

I can tell you that you can have the type of problem that you have without having any ulcer/pre-ulcer formations in your stomach or duodenum & without having any identifiable malady.

After you have undergone ultrasounds, MRIs, barium scans of upper & lower GIs, scopes to examine every bit of your stomach and intestines, liver biopsies, tons of blood work, stool specimen tests...on and on until you ring up more than 30 grand in costs only to discover that there is nothing "textbook wrong with you" you begin to take things into your own hands... :)

...reducing the irritation as described above helps in the healing process...but IF the doctors find nothing...then strengthening the intestinal lining and stomach lining at least for me solved my lifelong problems (which were more extensive then the stomach irritation). Several low dose courses of IGF-1 LR3 over the course of a year solved my 20 year-old debilitating problems permanently.

I'm not suggesting in any way shape of form that you do what I did. Especially since you have not been properly examined and you have not tried to solve your problem with simple tools.

I am only telling you that you need to study this area yourself without specifically "deciding" that you have a specific disease and then armed with what you learn approach your doctors to find a remedy.

If all else fails the type of things that we discuss here may help you in ways you haven't considered. Thankfully you are a thinking individual and can see that they could do harm as well.

Feel free to post up or PM me anytime on this topic.

- Dat
 
I know a little information is dangerous...
I got to thinking about how Acipimox augmented GH release - and I remembered that Nicotinic Acid was also a suppressor of plasma FFA. I did a little digging and found this:

It has previously been shown that nicotinic acid (NA)-induced depression of free fatty acids (FFA) stimulates the secretion of GH and glucagon. To evaluate this hormonal response further, we studied the influence of different doses of glucose administered by continuous iv infusion on the GH and glucagon increase during NA-induced FFA depression. In ten male non-obese volunteers, FFA depression by the infusion of NA (2.3 g over a period of 210 min) resulted in a late rise (from 150 min on) of GH (From 1.1 to 25.9 ng/ml) and an early increase (from 30 min on) of glucagon (from 71.7 to 138.2 pg/ml). When glucose was infused (approximately 60, 120 and 180 g, respectively, over a period of 270 min) during NA-induced FFA depression, the GH rise was reduced and delayed in relation to the amount of glucose infused, but could not be completely abolished (maximal GH concentration during the three NA-plus-glucose infusions: 16.5, 8.0 and 6.1 ng/ml, respectively). The glucagon rise was entirely reversed by the high glucose dose. Insulin did not rise during NA infusion alone. Its secretion in response to glucose infusion was not significantly influenced by FFA depression. Thus, during NA-induced FFA depression the secretion of two lipolytic hormones--GH and glucagon--is stimulated while the secretion of the lipogenetic hormone insulin remains low. Glucose has an inhibitory effect on the GH and glucagon response which, however, is different for each of the hormones.
PMID: 838844 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1977 Feb;44(2):383-91.

So, my question is - how long before your administration of GHRP's would it be best to take a dose of niacin?
 
Last edited:
Quad-smack said:
So, my question is - how long before your administration of GHRP's would it be best to take a dose of niacin?

Suppressing lipolysis is not a great idea if you want to lose body fat.

And THAT is a primary niacin mechanism.

In answer to your question, an a example of timing that was tested * was 1 gram of Niacin 60 minutes before the GH stimulus (in this case a 30 second sprint) followed by .5 grams 60 minutes after the GH stimulus (sprint) and .5 grams 180 minutes after the sprint. Then 4 hours later a second GH stimulus (2nd sprint).

The results were:

"Serum FFA was not significantly different between trials before sprint 1 but was significantly lower in the niacin (NA) trial immediately before sprint 2."​

So a one time 1 gram dose of Niacin one hour before the GH stimulus didn't suppress free fatty acids BUT the continued administration of it at 2 hour intervals (in a lower dose of .5 grams) DID result in lower free fatty acids.

This led to the following outcome/conclusion:

Peak and integrated GH were significantly greater following sprint 2 compared with sprint 1 in the niacin (NA) trial [peak GH: 23.3 (7.0) vs. 7.7 (11.9) µg/l, P < 0.05; integrated GH: 1,076 (350) vs. 316 (527) µg·l–1·60 min–1, P < 0.05] and compared with sprint 2 in the Control trial [peak GH: 23.3 (7.0) vs. 5.2 (2.3) µg/l, P < 0.05; integrated GH: 1,076 (350) vs. 206 (118) µg·l–1·60 min–1, P < 0.05].

In conclusion, suppressing lipolysis resulted in a significantly greater GH response to the second of two sprints, suggesting a potential role for serum FFA in negative feedback control of the GH response to repeated exercise.

* - The growth hormone response to repeated bouts of sprint exercise with and without suppression of lipolysis in men, Keith A. Stokes, Christopher Tyler, and Kate L. Gilbert, J Appl Physiol 104: 724-728, 2008
 
Hey Dat. As an expert you probably know the answer to this one ;)

Wich kind of GH (+ dosage) is used for height growth? I don't know if my fuses are shut or not, but regardless of that I am using GHRP-6 at the moment (low
doses for health benefits).

I would really see height growth as a bonus. So changing to another type of GH wouldn't be a problem.

PS: I'm sorry if my English is bad.

This question has come up so many times...so I'll reprise some of my older posts from elsewhere. Please ignore the tone of the following posts... it was an exasperating (i.e. fatigued) response to the same question from what seemed like a dozen PMs from people that wanted to just take GH and grow taller.

xxxxx said:
...and height if possible. i am 20 and still think i can grow some since i have had some growing pains recently.

Why all these questions from kids that want to grow?

Why do they ALL think growth hormone is the answer?

Because they are all incapable of doing the least bit of research to try to figure it out. There is no easy text book answer. I know that if you put the word "growth" in something the masses think that something will make you grow. But nothing takes place in a vaccum.

From, The Roles of Oestrogen in the Male by Richard M. Sharpe.

Clipboard01.jpg

I'll give you a hint. The intra-cellular signalling is important.

"Conversely, 1, 25 dihydroxy vitamin D3 prolongs GH signalling in osteoblast-like cells by inhibition of SOCS-3 and CIS expression which might contribute to bone turnover."

Go read "Seeking SOCS and sex steroids", Michael J. Waters.

Here is the opening paragraph:

In seeking to explain why oral estrogen inhibits the GH–IGF-I axis, a recent study has unearthed a new way that steroid hormones can influence growth hormone action. This involves suppressors of cytokine signalling (SOCS), which offer a new level of understanding in signal control and crosstalk.​

zzzzz said:
...There are optimum protocols for GHD in children with SS (Short Stature), none of them which yet encompass CJC or GHRP. So far, HGH, GHRH and rhIGF have been used in treatment....

Yes but the KEY is there is already a LOT going on in the body of a child. For a child often GH is what is needed because they have a mutation that precludes them from producing their own but the other factors necessary for growth will occur as they do with any child.

The problem becomes much, much, much more complex when a 20 year old needs to duplicate all that is happening in a child poised for growth. That can not be done ...or it can but it takes changing their "young adult" sex hormone profile and duplicating the pattern of a child in adolescence. Not easy and it may not even be desirable.

The same thing happens when an adult realizes DHT transdermal is used to treat micropenis in children. They think they can use it to become larger. But they can not because those receptors responsible for growth are not responsive much beyond 14 - 15 years of age. Instead the DHT receptors in that region in an adult who uses such a locally applied transdermal uptakes DHT and enlarges the prostate. But that doesn't mean idiots don't try such things.




Catch-Up Growth after Glucocorticoid Excess: A Mechanism Intrinsic to the Growth Plate, J Baron, KO Klein, MJ Colli, JA Yanovski, JA Novosad, JD Bacher and GB Cutler Jr , Endocrinology, 1994 Vol 135, 1367-1371


In humans and other mammals, the release from growth-inhibiting conditions, such as glucocorticoid excess, leads to supranormal linear growth. The prevailing explanation for this catch-up growth involves a central nervous system mechanism that compares actual body size to an age-appropriate set-point and adjusts growth rate accordingly via a circulating factor.

Although such a neuroendocrine "sizostat" was hypothesized more than 30 yr ago, its existence has never been confirmed experimentally. Here we show that suppression of growth within a single growth plate by locally administered glucocorticoid is followed by local catch-up growth that is restricted to the affected growth plate. Thus, the catch-up growth cannot be explained by neuroendocrine mechanism but, rather, must arise from a mechanism intrinsic to the growth plate.

To explain this finding, we propose that the normal senescent decline in growth plate function depends not on age per se, but on the cumulative number of stem cell divisions, and that glucocorticoid administration, by suppressing stem cell proliferation, delays senescence, resulting in catch-up growth after the growth-inhibiting agent is removed.


Determinants of Growth during Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone Analog Therapy for Precocious Puberty, Martina Weise, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2004 Vol. 89, No. 1 103-107


In children with precocious puberty (PP), treatment with GnRH analogs (GnRHa) often decreases height velocity below normal. Based on previous animal studies, we hypothesized that this impaired growth is due to excessive advancement in growth plate senescence induced by the prior estrogen exposure. This hypothesis predicts that the height velocity during treatment will be inversely related to impaired growth is due to excessive advancement in growth plate senescence induced by the prior estrogen exposurethe severity of prior estrogen exposure.
...blah, blah, blah
The findings are consistent with our hypothesis that impaired growth during GnRHa therapy is due, at least in part, to premature growth plate senescence induced by the prior estrogen exposure.

Growth plate senescence is associated with loss of DNA methylation, Ola Nilsson, Journal of Endocrinology (2005) 186, 241-249

The overall body size of vertebrates is primarily determined by longitudinal bone growth at the growth plate. With age, the growth plate undergoes programmed senescence, causing longitudinal bone growth to slow and eventually cease. Indirect evidence suggests that growth plate senescence occurs because stem-like cells in the growth plate resting zone have a finite proliferative capacity that is gradually exhausted.

Similar limits on replication have been observed when many types of animal cells are placed in cell culture, an effect known as the Hayflick phenomenon. However, we found that the number of population doublings of rabbit resting zone chondrocytes in culture did not depend on the age of the animal from which the cells were harvested, suggesting that the mechanisms limiting replicative capacity of growth plate chondrocytes in vivo are distinct from those in vitro.

We also observed that the level of DNA methylation in resting zone chondrocytes decreased with age in vivo. This loss of methylation appeared to occur specifically with the slow proliferation of resting zone chondrocytes in vivo and was not observed with the rapid proliferation of proliferative zone chondrocytes in vivo (i.e. the level of DNA methylation did not change from the resting zone to the hypertrophic zone), with proliferation of chondrocytes in vitro, or with growth of the liver in vivo.

Thus, the overall level of DNA methylation decreases during growth plate senescence. This finding is consistent with the hypothesis that the mechanism limiting replication of growth plate chondrocytes in vivo involves loss of DNA methylation and, thus, loss of DNA methylation might be a fundamental biological mechanism that limits longitudinal bone growth in mammals, thereby determining the overall adult size of the organism.

But for a complete understanding/review of all the factors & how they relate here is a nice thorough review in pdf format.

The contents are:


212.jpg

Systemic and Local Regulation of the Growth Plate, B. C. J. van der Eerden, M. Karperien and J. M. Wit , Endocrine Reviews 2003 24 (6): 782-801


Download -> **broken link removed**
 
Last edited:
DatBtrue,

You rule. I'm grateful for your extensive knowledge.

::port-smi
 
I have problems with my stomach burning up. But this problem started even before I had ever taken GHRP-6 and mod GRF(1-29).

It pisses me off because the doctor I went to didn't thoroughly try to find out what was wrong with me and just said "It happens, take some famotidine"

It's almost as if my stomach lining is weak and the gastric acid is eating my stomach up from the inside. Sort of like an ulcer. But the tests for bacteria came back negative.

I'm worried it might be something like the Zollinger-Ellison syndrome

I have the same problems, which in my case is hereditary and take Omeprazole (prilosec). I can eat what I want now and have no problems. I take a trip to Mexico once in a while and buy a years worth for about $12. Much cheaper that what my insurance charges me. Sounds to me like this is your problem too.
 
Cissus Quandrangularis an herb you can buy yourself was shown in a study to be as effective as sulcrafate.

DAT, have you ever used Cissus Quandrangularis for connective tissue injuries? I have two partially torn rotators in my right shoulder that were painful for 3 years. I tried every form of medication available including shots of cortisone and even morphine. The pain was so agonizing I could hardly train upper body much sleep well at night. I was strongly considering surgery.

A friend told me he had a similar injury and suggested I try this supplement with saline injections. I skipped the saline injections but the Cissus Quandrangularis solved this issue almost over night.

After the first night I had immediate pain relief and was able to sleep. Gradually I have been able to increase the amount of weight I use with upper body training to almost where I was before the injury. I have been using 2200 mg 2 times a day for 2 months now. I don't feel like the injury is completely healed yet as I still have some pain after training heavy, but my range of motion is almost 100% and the level of pain I have is decreased greatly. Any pain I have after training is gone within 24 hours. There is some very interesting research backing this product as well.
 
DAT, have you ever used Cissus Quandrangularis for connective tissue injuries?

Yep. Years ago I pulled something in my rib cage area when doing deadlifts and couldn't sleep from the pain. Thats when I discovered Cissus. It had an immediate pain reducing effect as well as healing effect.

Studies show it speeds the healing of bone fractures by 50%...

I haven't used it in sometime though.
 
This question has come up so many times...so I'll reprise some of my older posts from elsewhere. Please ignore the tone of the following posts... it was an exasperating (i.e. fatigued) response to the same question from what seemed like a dozen PMs from people that wanted to just take GH and grow taller.



Why all these questions from kids that want to grow?

Why do they ALL think growth hormone is the answer?

Because they are all incapable of doing the least bit of research to try to figure it out. There is no easy text book answer. I know that if you put the word "growth" in something the masses think that something will make you grow. But nothing takes place in a vaccum.

From, The Roles of Oestrogen in the Male by Richard M. Sharpe.

View attachment 24900

I'll give you a hint. The intra-cellular signalling is important.

"Conversely, 1, 25 dihydroxy vitamin D3 prolongs GH signalling in osteoblast-like cells by inhibition of SOCS-3 and CIS expression which might contribute to bone turnover."

Go read "Seeking SOCS and sex steroids", Michael J. Waters.

Here is the opening paragraph:

In seeking to explain why oral estrogen inhibits the GH–IGF-I axis, a recent study has unearthed a new way that steroid hormones can influence growth hormone action. This involves suppressors of cytokine signalling (SOCS), which offer a new level of understanding in signal control and crosstalk.​



Yes but the KEY is there is already a LOT going on in the body of a child. For a child often GH is what is needed because they have a mutation that precludes them from producing their own but the other factors necessary for growth will occur as they do with any child.

The problem becomes much, much, much more complex when a 20 year old needs to duplicate all that is happening in a child poised for growth. That can not be done ...or it can but it takes changing their "young adult" sex hormone profile and duplicating the pattern of a child in adolescence. Not easy and it may not even be desirable.

The same thing happens when an adult realizes DHT transdermal is used to treat micropenis in children. They think they can use it to become larger. But they can not because those receptors responsible for growth are not responsive much beyond 14 - 15 years of age. Instead the DHT receptors in that region in an adult who uses such a locally applied transdermal uptakes DHT and enlarges the prostate. But that doesn't mean idiots don't try such things.




Catch-Up Growth after Glucocorticoid Excess: A Mechanism Intrinsic to the Growth Plate, J Baron, KO Klein, MJ Colli, JA Yanovski, JA Novosad, JD Bacher and GB Cutler Jr , Endocrinology, 1994 Vol 135, 1367-1371


In humans and other mammals, the release from growth-inhibiting conditions, such as glucocorticoid excess, leads to supranormal linear growth. The prevailing explanation for this catch-up growth involves a central nervous system mechanism that compares actual body size to an age-appropriate set-point and adjusts growth rate accordingly via a circulating factor.

Although such a neuroendocrine "sizostat" was hypothesized more than 30 yr ago, its existence has never been confirmed experimentally. Here we show that suppression of growth within a single growth plate by locally administered glucocorticoid is followed by local catch-up growth that is restricted to the affected growth plate. Thus, the catch-up growth cannot be explained by neuroendocrine mechanism but, rather, must arise from a mechanism intrinsic to the growth plate.

To explain this finding, we propose that the normal senescent decline in growth plate function depends not on age per se, but on the cumulative number of stem cell divisions, and that glucocorticoid administration, by suppressing stem cell proliferation, delays senescence, resulting in catch-up growth after the growth-inhibiting agent is removed.


Determinants of Growth during Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone Analog Therapy for Precocious Puberty, Martina Weise, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2004 Vol. 89, No. 1 103-107


In children with precocious puberty (PP), treatment with GnRH analogs (GnRHa) often decreases height velocity below normal. Based on previous animal studies, we hypothesized that this impaired growth is due to excessive advancement in growth plate senescence induced by the prior estrogen exposure. This hypothesis predicts that the height velocity during treatment will be inversely related to impaired growth is due to excessive advancement in growth plate senescence induced by the prior estrogen exposurethe severity of prior estrogen exposure.
...blah, blah, blah
The findings are consistent with our hypothesis that impaired growth during GnRHa therapy is due, at least in part, to premature growth plate senescence induced by the prior estrogen exposure.

Growth plate senescence is associated with loss of DNA methylation, Ola Nilsson, Journal of Endocrinology (2005) 186, 241-249

The overall body size of vertebrates is primarily determined by longitudinal bone growth at the growth plate. With age, the growth plate undergoes programmed senescence, causing longitudinal bone growth to slow and eventually cease. Indirect evidence suggests that growth plate senescence occurs because stem-like cells in the growth plate resting zone have a finite proliferative capacity that is gradually exhausted.

Similar limits on replication have been observed when many types of animal cells are placed in cell culture, an effect known as the Hayflick phenomenon. However, we found that the number of population doublings of rabbit resting zone chondrocytes in culture did not depend on the age of the animal from which the cells were harvested, suggesting that the mechanisms limiting replicative capacity of growth plate chondrocytes in vivo are distinct from those in vitro.

We also observed that the level of DNA methylation in resting zone chondrocytes decreased with age in vivo. This loss of methylation appeared to occur specifically with the slow proliferation of resting zone chondrocytes in vivo and was not observed with the rapid proliferation of proliferative zone chondrocytes in vivo (i.e. the level of DNA methylation did not change from the resting zone to the hypertrophic zone), with proliferation of chondrocytes in vitro, or with growth of the liver in vivo.

Thus, the overall level of DNA methylation decreases during growth plate senescence. This finding is consistent with the hypothesis that the mechanism limiting replication of growth plate chondrocytes in vivo involves loss of DNA methylation and, thus, loss of DNA methylation might be a fundamental biological mechanism that limits longitudinal bone growth in mammals, thereby determining the overall adult size of the organism.

But for a complete understanding/review of all the factors & how they relate here is a nice thorough review in pdf format.

The contents are:


View attachment 24901

Systemic and Local Regulation of the Growth Plate, B. C. J. van der Eerden, M. Karperien and J. M. Wit , Endocrine Reviews 2003 24 (6): 782-801


Download -> **broken link removed**

Interesting topic.

So the bottom line is, even if the growth plate hasn't fused yet, hGH won't cause vertical growth in someone who's 20 since their hormone profile is different than that of a teenager?

I've actually heard that Oxandrolone can promote osteogenesis and lead to elongation of the growth plate even after puberty as long as the plates haven't fused. I don't know how true this is.

P.S. What is the average age of growth plate fusion in males? I know it's somewhere in the early twenties.
 
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Great thread!! Lots of amazing info. One question- Plan on using leucine 3.5 g and 25 grams glucose for insulin spike. When is the correct timing? My plan was post W/O take ghrp/ghrh wait 30 min and mix in with my shake. Blueberries + water+ whey+ oats + olive oil +psylium powder + leucine+ glucose. #0 mins later high protien meal. Is this correct?
 
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I was going to run a little experiment using ghrf 1-29 and ghrp6 3x per day and then hanging on upside down on my inversion table for 20 mins after each shot. Also be running 150mg ed of anavar, please don't flame, it's not for any other reason then because my body looks best with 150mg ed of var and 500mg of test a week. I cycle the var 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. Anyways trying to squeeze maybe an extra inch out of my back. Don't really care if it works or not, since I'm 6'10" but it'll be fun to try. At the very least it will improve my posture.
 
Great thread!! Lots of amazing info. One question- Plan on using leucine 3.5 g and 25 grams glucose for insulin spike. When is the correct timing? My plan was post W/O take ghrp/ghrh wait 30 min and mix in with my shake. Blueberries + water+ whey+ oats + olive oil +psylium powder + leucine+ glucose. #0 mins later high protien meal. Is this correct?

No.

You have thrown a lot of stuff together in that shake.

You wanted to increase glucose & insulin, but you have things that slow digestion in the shake.

Fiber in the form of psyllium...low GI carbs in the form of blueberries, mod GI carbs in the form of oats...

Then you have added fats (olive oil) which will not be used fpr energy in the presence of all these carbs.

You need to rethink the shake.

You have the timing correct as far as GHRP/GHRH and then 30 minutes later food. Protein in a form that doesn't impact glucose can be taken anytime including concurrent w/ the GHRP/GHRH. Fats & carbs you need to wait for a bit as you indicated post-injection.
 

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