watson test cyp 200 and hrt...

[Sust]

No matter if its 400 mg/wk or 1000 mg/wk, neither dose is going to put your blood levels at a normal range. That spells trouble for the doc. If I were anything other than an endo I wouldnt prescribe it. Even the endos are really cautious.

so 400mg wont put your blood levels in the proper ranges?

how about the member on this thread who posted his doc had to take him from 200 to 400mg.. apparently 200 was not enough for this person.

 

[kid1dakota]

so 400mg wont put your blood levels in the proper ranges?

how about the member on this thread who posted his doc had to take him from 200 to 400mg.. apparently 200 was not enough for this person.

Well,the original poster stated

I'm in the middle of a cycle now anyway

So I am pretty sure by that statement NO BLOODWORK was involved!!


I think we all agree 400 mg weekly To Start is excessive right?

Now, I find it hard to believe that 400 mg doesn't/cant put even the most resiliant, hyper excreter or whatever the issue in the top of normal range. I also have to say that would be VERY rare.I really would like to see a chart with bloodwork backing that up.

We have already discussed longevity and life extension clinics.They believe/goal is getting patients FEELING better and using higher doses.
They arent as concerned with Quest labs or Lab corps ranges."Feeling better" is subjective and bodybuilders are going to say they need more and need more until the doc finally says "thats my limit".Wether it be 300 or 400 which is not uncommon from those establishments.

I will say again,There has been recent legislation that will change this over time.Drug databases are huge as these guys use compounding pharmacies in which they have relationships ex. signature pharmacy Orlando,FL will change.Thats how they got around alot of legalities.Out of State Mail order pharmacies was another way. Google: Signature pharmacy if you don't know what I am referring to.

Sust, I can PM you the names of a couple places that you can send bloodwork,fill out a medical evaluation,pay a fee and get your high dosed stuff sent right to your doorstep for a pretty penny.Even if bloodwork is normal,if you put down all the symptoms of low T,which they conveniently list for you,lol.

We have to be more specific in this debate.Are we talking about REAL testosterone replacement with urologists,enocrinologists and some Family practictioners which use AMA and lab guidelines ? or anti-aging ,longevity (gray area) guidelines which are: for a big fee we will prescribe a cycle which makes you "feel" better? Also I should mention the dentists,radiologists,and pediatricians busted for writing scripts for these places for patients over the net.

This isn't an argument about personal decisions of using AAS or at what dose as some have mistakenly or ignorantly tried to imply.

 

[lifeforce0019]

You got very lucky with your doctor giving you that much. I dont even think they can legally prescribe that much for HRT.

They can't! Doesn't make sense how his plasma test could be low enough to qualify while on cycle. Sounds like BS to me.

 

[Sust]

Well,the original poster stated



So I am pretty sure by that statement NO BLOODWORK was involved!!


I think we all agree 400 mg weekly To Start is excessive right?

Now, I find it hard to believe that 400 mg doesn't/cant put even the most resiliant, hyper excreter or whatever the issue in the top of normal range. I also have to say that would be VERY rare.I really would like to see a chart with bloodwork backing that up.

We have already discussed longevity and life extension clinics.They believe/goal is getting patients FEELING better and using higher doses.
They arent as concerned with Quest labs or Lab corps ranges."Feeling better" is subjective and bodybuilders are going to say they need more and need more until the doc finally says "thats my limit".Wether it be 300 or 400 which is not uncommon from those establishments.

I will say again,There has been recent legislation that will change this over time.Drug databases are huge as these guys use compounding pharmacies in which they have relationships ex. signature pharmacy Orlando,FL will change.Thats how they got around alot of legalities.Out of State Mail order pharmacies was another way. Google: Signature pharmacy if you don't know what I am referring to.

Sust, I can PM you the names of a couple places that you can send bloodwork,fill out a medical evaluation,pay a fee and get your high dosed stuff sent right to your doorstep for a pretty penny.Even if bloodwork is normal,if you put down all the symptoms of low T,which they conveniently list for you,lol.

We have to be more specific in this debate.Are we talking about REAL testosterone replacement with urologists,enocrinologists and some Family practictioners which use AMA and lab guidelines ? or anti-aging ,longevity (gray area) guidelines which are: for a big fee we will prescribe a cycle which makes you "feel" better? Also I should mention the dentists,radiologists,and pediatricians busted for writing scripts for these places for patients over the net.

This isn't an argument about personal decisions of using AAS or at what dose as some have mistakenly or ignorantly tried to imply.

sure PM them to me

however you do realize that there are places that stay withing fed guidelines, they make the patient fly out to the facility and "cycles" are not allowed. Times have changed since sig pharmacy (charges were dropped on them and then brought back, i doubt they will be convicted) and a few good places are around who actually have a facility were patients come into and see a doctor who will only script what they actually need and not "want".

oh and before i forget, no i was not referring to the original poster. I was referring to another poster on here who said his doc gradually took him up the dosage later up to 400mg weekly due to his blood levels. Some might not like it and want proof, the fact is that it happens and we all need to embrace dr who actually do right by their patients because Lord knows there are not many now a days.

 

[maldorf]

oh and before i forget, no i was not referring to the original poster. I was referring to another poster on here who said his doc gradually took him up the dosage later up to 400mg weekly due to his blood levels. Some might not like it and want proof, the fact is that it happens and we all need to embrace dr who actually do right by their patients because Lord knows there are not many now a days.

There is no way in hell that anyone needs 400mg/wk to put them into the normal test range, period end of story. What you have in that case is a physician that is willing to increase dose because the patient is complaining of symptoms. A dose that high is going to put anyone at least 2x the normal level as long as that testosterone is US pharm grade and being bought legally with a script from a pharm here in the states. Some doctors might be ok with that, but its not a safe practice for the patient.
You do realize that 400mg/wk is 4x the normal dose right? It just is not physiologically possible for someones blood work to come back in the normal range on a dose that high as long as the testosterone is US pharm grade.

 

[Sust]

There is no way in hell that anyone needs 400mg/wk to put them into the normal test range, period end of story. What you have in that case is a physician that is willing to increase dose because the patient is complaining of symptoms. A dose that high is going to put anyone at least 2x the normal level as long as that testosterone is US pharm grade and being bought legally with a script from a pharm here in the states. Some doctors might be ok with that, but its not a safe practice for the patient.
You do realize that 400mg/wk is 4x the normal dose right? It just is not physiologically possible for someones blood work to come back in the normal range on a dose that high as long as the testosterone is US pharm grade.

and you have seen this through your years of studies in the industry? I dont mean to sound like an ass with that statement but you are putting your statement as in concrete and no if's and's or buts about it.

I have seen first hand years ago working with a Dr. a couple of patients given 400mg of test cyp and done blood work one week later only to find levels in the 300-600ng/dl range. But according to you these people should have been well over 1500ng/dl.

 

[kid1dakota]

I have seen first hand years ago working with a Dr. a couple of patients given 400mg of test cyp and done blood work one week later only to find levels in the 300-600ng/dl range. But according to you these people should have been well over 1500ng/dl.

Sust,you need to understand you are brand new on here ,arguing with guys whom have been around for awhile(not just the board,but this whole game).You may be a guru or veteran but we don't know you.

I am very open about my job and education.Maldorf is also highly educated and is well versed in this topic.We both have stated in other threads that we are on legal HRT prescribed and monitored.

Please elaborate on define "working with a Dr. a couple of patients"? and at what capacity did you work with them? As in my office nobody "works with me and a couple patients" except Me(chiropractor/nutritionist),The Medical doctor and his nurse.The front Office staff have access to charts etc... They copy,fax,scan them into the computer etc.. but don't sit and read them.

What you are claiming about 400mg not being so unusual for HRT and that you have "worked with" these people using these doses and only bringing people into the 300-600 range is NOT the norm and pretty hard to believe.

I am not calling you a liar,but I am asking where and how you "worked with " these very unusual individuals?? Do they all have something in common such as a condition causing this? please if you have some knowledge of this we are here to learn and are interested.

I actually spoke to my buddy who is a General practictioner and his wife whom is a pharmacist today at my daughters softball game.I coach so I didn't have a lot of time.They BOTH advised me that in their experiences and opinions that dose(400mg/per week) isn't the norm.The pharmacist actually said she would call the doctor to confirm as that would seem very odd to her.

So please understand we aren't being Assholes.You are New and claiming something VERY unusual circumstances.

 

[Sust]

kid1

i am by no means saying it is normal,, i do agree that it is actually very odd for these cases but i have seen 2 cases. I worked at the Dr. office ( a GP ) and one patient was a friend of mine. Till this day none of us know why he would not respond to the treatment, at 400mg weekly his levels were around 750-900ng/dl and he felt great. The other guy/patient remained lower as i posted earlier. Since he was not someone i knew, i do not know what happened with his treatment.

Thats all i know.

 

[TheTank]

kid1

i am by no means saying it is normal,, i do agree that it is actually very odd for these cases but i have seen 2 cases. I worked at the Dr. office ( a GP ) and one patient was a friend of mine. Till this day none of us know why he would not respond to the treatment, at 400mg weekly his levels were around 750-900ng/dl and he felt great. The other guy/patient remained lower as i posted earlier. Since he was not someone i knew, i do not know what happened with his treatment.

Thats all i know.

Did the doctor administer the 400mg? Becasue it would be very easy to take 100mg but tell the docotr that you took 400mg. You could fool the doctor into thinking that it took you 400mg to be at normal levels.

 

[c3bbing]

I just got back in town, I hadn't read the board in a wk. He tested my levels a wk before I started my current cycle and when I saw him a month later he said my level was 144 and very out of range for a 30yr old man.I called his office, he only wants me to take 400mgs a wk for a month, to give me a boost and then 200 to 250mgs a wk after that. The pharmacy had screwed up the directions! I knew that was way too high!! He isn't a bad Dr at all, he is very compassionate and understanding. He believes in a lot of peptides, preventive health measures etc. He sees a lot of bodybuilders. His one bbing friend was having some really sore joints, so he wrote him some deca. I like that he is open to try things like that. I have to read all these replies. I already read maldorfs and I have to say thank you to him. I got the blood clot genetic tests done because of him and thankfully I don't have that and I'm not prone to clots, but I'm glad I found out! God forbid I was and didnt know! Takw his advice and get these tests done, it could save your life. I nearly died from a clot, not gear or genetic related and its a long story, but once you are on a ventilator and feeding tube in a coma and nearly died, you really start to lose the whole I'm 'invincible' cloak, we all seem to wear...get blood work done, get tests done and ask questions! I'm glad we have a great guy like maldorf here to educate us.

 

[Sust]

thetank shot was done in the office

 

[maldorf]

I just got back in town, I hadn't read the board in a wk. He tested my levels a wk before I started my current cycle and when I saw him a month later he said my level was 144 and very out of range for a 30yr old man.I called his office, he only wants me to take 400mgs a wk for a month, to give me a boost and then 200 to 250mgs a wk after that. The pharmacy had screwed up the directions! I knew that was way too high!! He isn't a bad Dr at all, he is very compassionate and understanding. He believes in a lot of peptides, preventive health measures etc. He sees a lot of bodybuilders. His one bbing friend was having some really sore joints, so he wrote him some deca. I like that he is open to try things like that. I have to read all these replies. I already read maldorfs and I have to say thank you to him. I got the blood clot genetic tests done because of him and thankfully I don't have that and I'm not prone to clots, but I'm glad I found out! God forbid I was and didnt know! Takw his advice and get these tests done, it could save your life. I nearly died from a clot, not gear or genetic related and its a long story, but once you are on a ventilator and feeding tube in a coma and nearly died, you really start to lose the whole I'm 'invincible' cloak, we all seem to wear...get blood work done, get tests done and ask questions! I'm glad we have a great guy like maldorf here to educate us.

I remember chatting with you on here about your clot. Im glad you made it through. Yours must have been quite bad if they had you on a ventilator. Pulmonary emoblism? I hope you discovered what might have caused it. Were you on a cycle when it happened? Wondering what your hemoglobin and hematocrit were at the time.

So they tested for prothrombin disorder and factor 5? I think there might be some others too. I dont really know exactly how the tests work. I bet youre relieved to have those come back negative. It sucks being on coumadin for life. Were you on coumadin for awhile? 200-250 mg/wk is still a hefty HRT dose. 150mg/wk used to put my total test at around 850 or so midway through the week when it was tested. Your doc sounds rather progressive and that can be a good thing for sure. I just hope that you keeps a close eye on your bloodwork.

Thanks for the good words about my efforts on here. Some guys get the wrong message and think Im trying to preach anti steroid or that I am just on here whining about how I _ucked myself up and Im seeking pity or something. Im glad you got the message I am trying to convey.

 

[Sust]

maldrof whats your story? how did you get hurt?

 

[maldorf]

Long story!

maldrof whats your story? how did you get hurt?

Basically I had a blood clot in my right main coronary artery and had a heart attack where I lost a good amount of my heart tissue. I now have a defibrillator/pacemaker on my chest under the skin. I really am lucky to still be alive. My heart is functioning at 20% ejection fraction which is almost 1/3 what it should be.

The clot appears to have been induced by a combination of a genetic condition I didnt know I had and the steroids I was taking. You can read up on it in this thread. Lots more detail in here.
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/37736-just-survived-heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

 

[Sust]

thats insane man, glad ur still around!

and you are still able to train? are you on hrt?

 

[maldorf]

thats insane man, glad ur still around!

and you are still able to train? are you on hrt?

Yeah, I just did squats today an hour ago. I am still able to train but I have to use much lighter weights mostly because I dont take steroids anymore. I lost about 35 lbs of muscle. I am much thinner now but still look very healthy. Most people are shocked when I tell them ive had a heart attack. To the average person I actually probably look healthier now than before. I weigh about 215 lbs now at 6 foot and was about 235 lbs and leaner before.

I am on HRT becuase of necessity. We tried letting me recover my own production, but after about 10 months my doc finally threw in the towel. My LH was stuck at levels that came back "below measurable limits) and my total test was around 50-65. Felt like shit those 10 months and I was recuping from the heart attack too, and so those were some of the most difficult months of my entire life. Only thing that can come close was the divorce I lived through with my first wife! Im on 100 mg/wk test cyp.

I feel pretty good most of the time.I have arrythmias sometimes, but its not real common. I get winded fairly easy when I lift and do cardio, but I manage ok. Exercising isnt the joy that it used to be, and some days I feel like I am forcing myself to do it because I have to work so much harder now than before. The beta blocker im on makes me tired somewhat.

 

[Sust]

glad you are balanced out man :headbang:

 

[bigoso]

That is not HRT, thats a cycle! Extremely high HRT dose. I cannot fathom a legitimate doctor prescribing that. If you were to stay on a dose that high for long your hematocrit and hemoglobin will be way out of range. Being on that much as a cruise and then going on more to blast is a sure way to health problems within 1 year or less.

Maldorf, I am very empathetic to your situation, and I'm glad you are here to share your experiences with us...but it always gets me when you make blanket statements. I have been on 300mg weekly (prescribed by doc) for over 2 years now...my levels usually come in around 1200...which I realize is on the high end, but nowhere near this 2-3x normal I keep hearing. In addition to this my hemoglobin and hematocrit are actually low not on the low end of normal, but outside of the norm on the low side. I say all this to say, drugs/medications affect us all differently. Whenever you say it's "always this way" you are usually wrong. Another example...my estradiol after being off all 'supps' for 2 years was 50...with a total T in the low 300's...at 31!

 

[maldorf]

Maldorf, I am very empathetic to your situation, and I'm glad you are here to share your experiences with us...but it always gets me when you make blanket statements. I have been on 300mg weekly (prescribed by doc) for over 2 years now...my levels usually come in around 1200...which I realize is on the high end, but nowhere near this 2-3x normal I keep hearing. In addition to this my hemoglobin and hematocrit are actually low not on the low end of normal, but outside of the norm on the low side. I say all this to say, drugs/medications affect us all differently. Whenever you say it's "always this way" you are usually wrong. Another example...my estradiol after being off all 'supps' for 2 years was 50...with a total T in the low 300's...at 31!

Well, honestly a test level of 1200 is out of the normal range because most consider the upper limit to be 1000 ng/dl. If you look at the research, the average for someone your age is about 670. So you are about 2x the average male and I wouldnt really call that normal. This article actually says healthy men range from 250-850. Your level is way outside of that norm.
As far as the hemoglobin and hematocrit, yeah we all are affected differently. I think though if you were to take a survey you would find a very great number of us on here that have issues with it while on androgens. It is much better to be safe than sorry. One cannot assume that they will not have issues with hgb/hct and it is much more desireable to start at a low dose and work your way up. The thing is, many of the guys on here are either crusing or doing their own HRT without a doctors advice and are just having the tests run on their own at most, some dont even test. Caution needs to be used.

 

[maldorf]

Maldorf, I am very empathetic to your situation, and I'm glad you are here to share your experiences with us...but it always gets me when you make blanket statements. I have been on 300mg weekly (prescribed by doc) for over 2 years now...my levels usually come in around 1200...which I realize is on the high end, but nowhere near this 2-3x normal I keep hearing. In addition to this my hemoglobin and hematocrit are actually low not on the low end of normal, but outside of the norm on the low side. I say all this to say, drugs/medications affect us all differently. Whenever you say it's "always this way" you are usually wrong. Another example...my estradiol after being off all 'supps' for 2 years was 50...with a total T in the low 300's...at 31!

Well, honestly a test level of 1200 is out of the normal range because most consider the upper limit to be 1000 ng/dl. If you look at the research, the average for someone your age is about 670. So you are about 2x the average male and I wouldnt really call that normal. This article actually says healthy men range from 250-850. Your level is way outside of that norm.
As far as the hemoglobin and hematocrit, yeah we all are affected differently. I think though if you were to take a survey you would find a very great number of us on here that have issues with it while on androgens. It is much better to be safe than sorry. One cannot assume that they will not have issues with hgb/hct and it is much more desireable to start at a low dose and work your way up. The thing is, many of the guys on here are either crusing or doing their own HRT without a doctors advice and are just having the tests run on their own at most, some dont even test. Caution needs to be used.

**broken link removed**