A theory on mass and keeping it....thoughts?

[BALDNAZI]

You guys have known me for years and it seems that I have been on a perpetual bulk. I have been as high as 267 in the past but looked my best at around 240 but that was geared up and never truly ripped. I had a 4 pack, slight visiual of the bottom 2 abs, but I have never been lean to the extent of most of you guys.

Since I have recovered from my liver surgery the past 2 years I have been on a non stop mission to get as big as possible and only then try for a true cut. I have taken it very far with DC and Im weighing over 270 now and still growing. Thats alot of progress from when I got out of the hospital at 192lbs! I amazed myself and everyone around me how I did it. I thought I would cut for this summer but decided against to push as far as i can on the little hrt dose my doc gives me along with the big weight training DC. Maybe 280+. Honestly, I am big and muscular but I look more like a wrestler/powerlifter then a true bodybuilder, which is fine for now.

Anyway, my theory is that the longer you stay at a higher bodyweight, in particular a massive muscular bodyweight, the body adapts to hold onto and keep this size. The longer you can keep it here new muscular memory takes place, and you will be able to get this level of mass again and keep more mass when you cut. I think I read this before but I wanted to hear what the consensus was.

So basicaly what my thoughts are is this. If I can stay as big and strong as possible until say February 2009 and then begin a true cut, would I not end up with a really nice lean yet massive body for summer 2009. More so then if I just started cutting now? Lets say 280 down to 240-250? Just a thought

 

[edge250]

set-point theory.

 

[mrsoul]

i.m not sure that maintaining a weight for an exyended period neccessarily insures that when you cut you will hold more muscle. for example. if someone holds a steady weight of 290lbs, but is 20% body fat, when they cut they will still have an enorourmous amount of fat to lose and there lean body mass will still be the same regardless how long they stay at 290, as long as the body fat does not change. now if the person is 290 at 20%, and holds that weight while dropping body fat, then i would think that the lean body mass would increase. trey brewer hels his weight at 310, but competed at a lower weight then when he won the excalibur and in my opinion looked much worse.
personally i am of the opinion that it is better to maintain a low body fat and gain lean muscle slowly instead of dramatic weight gains that really translate into water and fat and a little muscle.

 

[edge250]

i think you might have missed his point soul and using brewer as an example is not even close to what he is talking about. no disrespect.

 

[mrsoul]

i think you might have missed his point soul and using brewer as an example is not even close to what he is talking about. no disrespect.

mayb i did, however my point was that just because you maintain a certain weight, this does not increase muscle mass, which is what i thought he was talking about. was his point no that the longer you hold a weight the more muscle you will hold when you cut? if so i say no, not if your lean mass does not change.

 

[mrsoul]

and trey brewer is exactly what he was talking about. trey maintained a weight, then cut, and weighed less then before, with worse conditioning which can only translate to lost muscle.

 

[dragonfire101]

Anyway, my theory is that the longer you stay at a higher bodyweight, in particular a massive muscular bodyweight, the body adapts to hold onto and keep this size. The longer you can keep it here new muscular memory takes place, and you will be able to get this level of mass again and keep more mass when you cut. I think I read this before but I wanted to hear what the consensus was.

Dave Palumbo had an article somewhere on this and was also recommending longer cycles to maintain the weight so that you could increase your set point.

 

[W8killa]

First of all, you are a true warrior man or better yet a bad ass. Your heart is in bodybuilding. If it wasn't you would have quit when the times were tough. And I miss your ranting on the board sparking up fire in everyone who reads your posts. Anyway I think if you starting cutting now, and did it slow and conservatively, you wouldn't lose any mass at all. Just keep your diet really strict, add cardio and monitor you progress. What also helps me is staying OFF the scale and going by what I look like pumped. You might think you're small until you see the veins, striations, etc. So don't let your mind play games. Lastly, there are some people that think your body stops responding to bulking after a while, similar to never varying your training techniques. So it will actually do you good to switch from bulking to cutting. Stay strong brother.

 

[abadseal]

First of all, you are a true warrior man or better yet a bad ass. Your heart is in bodybuilding. If it wasn't you would have quit when the times were tough. And I miss your ranting on the board sparking up fire in everyone who reads your posts. Anyway I think if you starting cutting now, and did it slow and conservatively, you wouldn't lose any mass at all. Just keep your diet really strict, add cardio and monitor you progress. What also helps me is staying OFF the scale and going by what I look like pumped. You might think you're small until you see the veins, striations, etc. So don't let your mind play games. Lastly, there are some people that think your body stops responding to bulking after a while, similar to never varying your training techniques. So it will actually do you good to switch from bulking to cutting. Stay strong brother.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[Squeet]

I suggest getting hydrostatic weighed (under water) and find out what your true lean mass is and what exactly your fat mass truly is.

There many reasons for doing this:

1. As you get older you will definably sacrifice more of your health and therefore your life, to carry around all that extra fat & water and for what, to carry around extra water & fat? No worth it! I’m 5 foot 5 inches I used to get up to 210 lbs but my blood pressure, cholesterol and triglycerides were excessively high and I had adult onset diabetes. I SLOWLY, over 4 months cycled and dieted down to 184 with abs ( I used Lyle McDonald’s UD-2 system which is a very informative variant of Dan Duchan’s system, for lack of a better word) all my values returned to normal and I look and feel 25 years younger, and at 5 foot 5 inches tall, 51 years old, 29 inch waist I bench 325, run wind sprints and look great.

2. You can gauge precisely (if you keep being weighed every so often) if you really are losing any lean mass and adjust wath your doing. If your cycling it is very doubtful that you will and will probably gain some

3. Getting un-obsessed or out of the habit with watching the weight scale go up will cause you to make better food choices and there by improve your overall health.

peace out.

 

[Force245]

BN I think you are absolutely right and correct in your thinking. When I started on my journey of mass, I was a measely 185 at 6'6". Slowly ratchheting up the weight through the years has brought me now to 345 with a goal of a lean and ab showing 375. The thing about your body getting used to the weight has merrit. I, since I have kept the heavy weight and just kept it coming, can still run, sprint and play some B-ball. Now it is not as good as I was back then, but I still can do it. I do get winded somewhat faster, but can still do it. People freak out at the park when I run with my daughter or chase my kids or play football with the guys, to see a 6'8" 345 idiot running and playing. Just think of the NFL guys also, they keep there heavy weight and still perform, then later they cut and lean out and still look big as fuck. Sorry just my 2 cents.

 

[GoneForever]

BN i think your right. Over a year ago I would fluctuate between 230-240ish adn always be able to lose like 15lbs quick after a cycle if I dieted correctly adn was on hrt. Last cycle I did last year lasted about 6months and I got to 265lbs, I then maintained for a bit, and dropped to around 245 after dieting and hit a small 6week bulker and went back up to 260. Well, ive only been on hrt the past 4 or 5months and im staying in the 250's no matter what. Ive been dieting and still not dropping scale weight like I used to, but I am getting leaner for sure. Its really weird. Its like my body wants to stay this big now.

 

[lucian]

.....

theres a lot to be said about the set point. the body never wants to be bigger or smaller. it wants to atey the same and just survive. so at the higher bodywieght, as all your systems adapt and it gets easier to maintain then the body doesnt want to drop. brewer didnt take 4 years off and train ect , he did an offseason and then cut again. so i dont think it was long enough for his set point to be reset. these are all thearoies but they explain the set point and how its easier to maintain the high bodywt with less effort.
god bless
lucian

 

[mrsoul]

theres a lot to be said about the set point. the body never wants to be bigger or smaller. it wants to atey the same and just survive. so at the higher bodywieght, as all your systems adapt and it gets easier to maintain then the body doesnt want to drop. brewer didnt take 4 years off and train ect , he did an offseason and then cut again. so i dont think it was long enough for his set point to be reset. these are all thearoies but they explain the set point and how its easier to maintain the high bodywt with less effort.
god bless
lucian

good point about brewer.

 

[chris250]

BN - Ok here are my thoughts on this theory...I have talked to a few people about this, one being Dante, others such as Chad Nicholls (he lives in the midwest I see him at shows in Missouri), Palumbo (when I worked with him in 2002...I have also read many books about this theory...Ok, for the most part I do believe that if you hold a higher bodyweight (for example say 300lbs) and can do this at a lean bodymass (such as 10-12%) I do believe when coming down (as long its a long slow diet) then you will hold on to more mass then say if you bulked up to 300lbs over 6 months then came right down over 3 months...To me that is only common sense...But, if your bodyfat is to high say over 18% then I dont think it will really matter what kind of diet you do...Cause I believe that if your heavy for a long peroid of time, with a higher bodyfat then that fat will want to hold on to you even with a strict diet and lots of cardio...I believe you will have to lose some muscle to get super lean if you are at a higher bodyweight/bodyfat %...then you have to worry about your skin around your stomach (is it going to be tight enough)...These are things to think about when starting a bulking phase...I dont really bulk up to a super heavy weight unless im staying pretty lean...I just think thats its to hard to lose bodyfat and I lose muscle pretty easy when Im dieting down...

I guess thats my thought

chris

 

[BALDNAZI]

THANK YOU

Thanks for all the replies. My health is fine,no worries. My blood tests come back fine everytime with cholesterol totals always in the 130+ range and very good ratio of bad to good. So all my eating isnt killing me.

The reason I brought this up is because I can no longer cycle. I am happy with my HRT and thats it. Of course I could start a cut tomorrow and diet/cardio the right way and go on a nice big cycle but I cannot and will not do that.

So I figured it will take longer to get down to really nice shape, but by having a ton of muscle it should be easier to do with only HRT doses. The set point is what makes sense to me. Im looking forward to hearing more.

 

[W8killa]

I don't know set point theory but I believe that when you are a certain weight for a long period of time, that weight will become your homeostasis. Case in point, I cruised and blasted for a while and when I came clean for fertility reasons, I never really lost much weight. I went from 225 to 200ish with a lot of weight lost being water. and that was with a test level of 220 ng/dL. I was also very strong. I know a lot of people believe that when you stretch the muscle fascia to a certain point, you can reach that point again easier than it was to originally achieve it. this would be the cause of muscle memory.

 

[oldfella]

BN, Your theory has merit, as long as you continue to train hard enough and eat just as hard with some adjustments to aid in fat loss you will maintain your lean mass. If you slack off your training and diet it does not matter how long you have been at any weight your body wioll shed the extra weight to go back to your genetic set point as edge has pointed out. So the key to hanging on to the mass is to A) diet slowly to lose fat and preserve muscle and B) to keep training intensity and caloric intake sufficeient to maintain the mass you have.

 

[Queefer]

BN - Ok here are my thoughts on this theory...I have talked to a few people about this, one being Dante, others such as Chad Nicholls (he lives in the midwest I see him at shows in Missouri), Palumbo (when I worked with him in 2002...I have also read many books about this theory...Ok, for the most part I do believe that if you hold a higher bodyweight (for example say 300lbs) and can do this at a lean bodymass (such as 10-12%) I do believe when coming down (as long its a long slow diet) then you will hold on to more mass then say if you bulked up to 300lbs over 6 months then came right down over 3 months...To me that is only common sense...But, if your bodyfat is to high say over 18% then I dont think it will really matter what kind of diet you do...Cause I believe that if your heavy for a long peroid of time, with a higher bodyfat then that fat will want to hold on to you even with a strict diet and lots of cardio...I believe you will have to lose some muscle to get super lean if you are at a higher bodyweight/bodyfat %...then you have to worry about your skin around your stomach (is it going to be tight enough)...These are things to think about when starting a bulking phase...I dont really bulk up to a super heavy weight unless im staying pretty lean...I just think thats its to hard to lose bodyfat and I lose muscle pretty easy when Im dieting down...

I guess thats my thought

chris

I agree with Chris on this one. If, and only if you can maintain a fairly lean bodyweight will it do you any good in the long run. I know Palumbo weighed close to 300 lbs but he was also in great shape.

 

[buselmo]

BN - Ok here are my thoughts on this theory...I have talked to a few people about this, one being Dante, others such as Chad Nicholls (he lives in the midwest I see him at shows in Missouri), Palumbo (when I worked with him in 2002...I have also read many books about this theory...Ok, for the most part I do believe that if you hold a higher bodyweight (for example say 300lbs) and can do this at a lean bodymass (such as 10-12%) I do believe when coming down (as long its a long slow diet) then you will hold on to more mass then say if you bulked up to 300lbs over 6 months then came right down over 3 months...To me that is only common sense...But, if your bodyfat is to high say over 18% then I dont think it will really matter what kind of diet you do...Cause I believe that if your heavy for a long peroid of time, with a higher bodyfat then that fat will want to hold on to you even with a strict diet and lots of cardio...I believe you will have to lose some muscle to get super lean if you are at a higher bodyweight/bodyfat %...then you have to worry about your skin around your stomach (is it going to be tight enough)...These are things to think about when starting a bulking phase...I dont really bulk up to a super heavy weight unless im staying pretty lean...I just think thats its to hard to lose bodyfat and I lose muscle pretty easy when Im dieting down...

I guess thats my thought

chris

+1