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Confused on when to use DES IGF1

forklift28

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So I understand that for me using IGF-1 LR3 pre w/o and MGF post is working quite well..I am adding in DES IGF1 and I am confused on how long I should give the MGF time to "do it's thing" before I administer the DES IGF1.I have seen some suggestions that range from waiting at least 6 hours to 24 hours..that's a huge window that is creating confusion for me.Any body got experience on when is a good time to use it after the MGF?
 

chemicalwarrior

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So I understand that for me using IGF-1 LR3 pre w/o and MGF post is working quite well..I am adding in DES IGF1 and I am confused on how long I should give the MGF time to "do it's thing" before I administer the DES IGF1.I have seen some suggestions that range from waiting at least 6 hours to 24 hours..that's a huge window that is creating confusion for me.Any body got experience on when is a good time to use it after the MGF?


If you are using straight mgf, then it isn't going to be in your system for 6 or 24 hours. It's more like 20 min maybe 30. So, just take your des 30 min. after. Make sure to have plenty of carbs and aminos in your system too.
 

forklift28

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If you are using straight mgf, then it isn't going to be in your system for 6 or 24 hours. It's more like 20 min maybe 30. So, just take your des 30 min. after. Make sure to have plenty of carbs and aminos in your system too.

That was what I was thinking..I was discussing this with Myosin on another board and he suggested this..his idea is that let mgf keep doing it's thing for at least 6 hours then hit it with the des..I was telling him I had peg-mgf and mgf..he might have gotten confused about which one I was referring to..I got a mixed up order twice so I got alot of peg-mgf now.Thanks for the advice bro.
 

chemicalwarrior

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Cool. Yeah, if he's referring to peg-mgf, then I'm sure he's right on the money. Regular mgf is nice and short, like Verne Troyer on ectasy. :)
 

123cctv

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I am adding in DES IGF1 and I am confused on how long I should give the MGF time to "do it's thing" before I administer the DES IGF1.

Just something to consider - MGF continues to "do its thing", i.e. cell proliferation, long after it, the peptide has vacated the system. Introduction of IGF overides the proliferation process. As noted in some studies, in the proper environment proliferation can continue on for months.

Check out DatBtrue's comments: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...c-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-31.html#post518828
 

Donzi

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Just something to consider - MGF continues to "do its thing", i.e. cell proliferation, long after it, the peptide has vacated the system. Introduction of IGF overides the proliferation process. As noted in some studies, in the proper environment proliferation can continue on for months.

Check out DatBtrue's comments: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...c-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-31.html#post518828

so would you be better off to run the 2 every other mo? IGF 1 mo, then off and hop on MGF 1mo etc?
 

chemicalwarrior

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Just something to consider - MGF continues to "do its thing", i.e. cell proliferation, long after it, the peptide has vacated the system. Introduction of IGF overides the proliferation process. As noted in some studies, in the proper environment proliferation can continue on for months.

Check out DatBtrue's comments: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...c-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-31.html#post518828

Ok, well my question would be about how long do we want it to continue proliferating? I mean, mgf is shown to actually inhibit the differentiation process. So, long term proliferation isn't the only goal. I'm all about jumping in there and having something to tell those activated cells what to become!

What would you say the best time frame is to let mgf continue the proliferation process? I mean, when is it officially past its effective peak in regards to a time frame post injection?

I guess the thing that you are bringing up that a lot of people don't think about is that basically des igf-1 and igf-1 rh will shut down the proliferation process caused by mgf. But, mgf itself will inhibit the differentiation process. They are almost natural enemies! (kidding and exaggerating) Seriously though, they are both needed and maybe it's time we settle on a suitable time table etc. for use?

I'd still say take mgf (not peg) immediately post workout in the muscles you worked and need growth in. Then take the des a 1/2 hr later. But, I'll admit I'm saying this because I don't know the exact particulars of it. What does DAT say about it? I mean, mgf is only active in drug form for 20 min? And, I'll agree the effects are seen long after. But, when is the peak? When is the best time to hit it with some des? I'd say right as the peak starts to decline. But, I don't have the patience to read through that huge Datbtrue thread again to find when that is.... :)

Any thoughts?
 

chemicalwarrior

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My bad (God I'm lazy!) I see that you linked directly to the post. Thank you.

I'm not seeing where regular mgf lasts for a super long time after administration, peg-mgf does I guess. But, I am seeing where Dat explains that he believes that both mgf and peg-mgf will act the same as igf-1 because they are not necessarily being recognized and used the same way that internally produced mgf is. So, maybe we are missing the boat in a big way by simply injecting mgf and thinking it is going to act like "mgf" vs. what it really acts like once it binds to the igf-1 receptor. I don't know. I guess if I'm going to use mgf, I'll go with regular mgf and hope for the best since I have no way to virally produce mgf within a cell- though workouts with focus on eccentric training will produce more mgf naturally after which des could be used shortly after to help differentiate any activated cells....

I'm admittedly a little in over my head here. But, I also think you should take a look back through some of this and realize that you are missing a lot of the gist of what Dat is saying. He doesn't seem to believe that mgf will actually act like mgf no matter what form it is in when it's injected into a muscle. He goes into a lot of detail why here- http://www.professionalmuscle.com/fo...161#post487161

What do you think about that? I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm being genuine. I really want to get to the bottom of this and I'm a little lost!
 

Seabiscuit Hogg

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Don't ask me for a post # but Dat also comments the MGF could act as MGF if injected pwo due to "seepage" thru damaged muscle cells.
 
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123cctv

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I'm not seeing where regular mgf lasts for a super long time after administration, peg-mgf does I guess.

Again, half life of PEG vs. reg. MGF are not important. However the environment is crucial and it's what needs to be focused on. I'll do my best to explain.

1. Yes, Dat said merely injecting MGF does not cause it to act as MGF = proliferation. Agreed. However as Seabiscuit Hogg refferenced a post (of which I am unaware of as well), exactly what is the environment MGF is introduced into? It's clear MGF only exists when damaged and torn muscle occurs. That's Post WO. Of course, injecting any other time (depending on the environment) anythings possible - no guarantee of proliferation. In fact, I'll go one better, do not expect MGF to ever act like it supposed to unless you admin it Post WO when natural/internal MGF exists!

2. The next thing is, once prolferation commences, it can continue, not contingent upon any particular peptide assistance. Meaning, once proliferation begins, the only thing I'm aware of capable of altering its expression/synthesis is the environment itself, rather than the elimination/clearance of the peptide. Thus, whether peglated or not, once its cleared our system it'll be the environment itself dictating proliferation or differentiation. We can however stop proliferation if we so choose to.

A quotation from Dat, "exogenously administered IGF1 will interfere with MGF expression".

In a nut shell, IF proliferation (MGF expression) exists, IGF will alter snythesis into differentiation. But again, it's kicking off and then maintaining MGF expression that seems to be the issue.

I guess if I'm going to use mgf, I'll go with regular mgf and hope for the best since I have no way to virally produce mgf within a cell- though workouts with focus on eccentric training will produce more mgf naturally after which des could be used shortly after to help differentiate any activated cells....

Exactly! Very nice. That brings me to:

3. If MGF only occurs after a WO and we desire to promote its expression, if we are to be assured it will act like MGF, then it makes perfect sense to admin it at the only time we can expect proliferation to exist - Post WO.


Hmmm, you're link doesn't work. Though I am aware of the post you're referring to. So here it is again for anyone else wanting to see it. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...hrp-6-basic-guides-post487161.html#post487161
 

123cctv

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Ok, well my question would be about how long do we want it to continue proliferating?


Great question! Actually that IS the question and I don't believe I have a "great" answer for you. :) However since we are quoting DatBtrue here, he did say in the prior link I gave:

"...anyway so it seems that you would want to hold the proliferation "gas pedal" down for as long as possible while keeping differentiation factors from acting."

Differentiation is easy to promote. Proliferation isn't.
 

123cctv

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so would you be better off to run the 2 every other mo? IGF 1 mo, then off and hop on MGF 1mo etc?

That's a very interesting concept. Doing so would assure that neither expression interfered with the other.
 

123cctv

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Here is a very good read by Anthony Roberts. It will take ya 5-10 minutes to get through it all, noting the graphs/charts etc.
IGF MGF Use

It suggests MGF PWO, then 1 hour later IGF-1. What he's saying is right on, though his recommendation may differ slightly. In other words, he'll not tell you to hold off on the IGF-1 dose. :)

I think you'll like it. Some good stuff there.
 

pirateman

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How would this work??

4:30 am GHRP/cjc pre-workout
5:00 am Workout
6:45 am MGF shot in bodypart worked
4:00 pm IGF

Repeat the next day only on workout days Mon., Tues. Thurs. Fri.
 

chemicalwarrior

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Don't ask me for a post # but Dat also comments the MGF could act as MGF if injected pwo due to "seepage" thru damaged muscle cells.

Ok, that's reassuring and explains a lot!

Again, half life of PEG vs. reg. MGF are not important. However the environment is crucial and it's what needs to be focused on. I'll do my best to explain.

1. Yes, Dat said merely injecting MGF does not cause it to act as MGF = proliferation. Agreed. However as Seabiscuit Hogg refferenced a post (of which I am unaware of as well), exactly what is the environment MGF is introduced into? It's clear MGF only exists when damaged and torn muscle occurs. That's Post WO. Of course, injecting any other time (depending on the environment) anythings possible - no guarantee of proliferation. In fact, I'll go one better, do not expect MGF to ever act like it supposed to unless you admin it Post WO when natural/internal MGF exists!

2. The next thing is, once prolferation commences, it can continue, not contingent upon any particular peptide assistance. Meaning, once proliferation begins, the only thing I'm aware of capable of altering its expression/synthesis is the environment itself, rather than the elimination/clearance of the peptide. Thus, whether peglated or not, once its cleared our system it'll be the environment itself dictating proliferation or differentiation. We can however stop proliferation if we so choose to.

A quotation from Dat, "exogenously administered IGF1 will interfere with MGF expression".

In a nut shell, IF proliferation (MGF expression) exists, IGF will alter snythesis into differentiation. But again, it's kicking off and then maintaining MGF expression that seems to be the issue.



Exactly! Very nice. That brings me to:

3. If MGF only occurs after a WO and we desire to promote its expression, if we are to be assured it will act like MGF, then it makes perfect sense to admin it at the only time we can expect proliferation to exist - Post WO.



Hmmm, you're link doesn't work. Though I am aware of the post you're referring to. So here it is again for anyone else wanting to see it. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...hrp-6-basic-guides-post487161.html#post487161

Ok, totally get what you are saying with everything here. Very very informative posts and good stuff! My only thing is that I do believe that there is the possibility of peg-mgf may not being the best for our purposes in this case. I only say this because the pegylation can be done in different ways and the weight of the molecules can vary due to how the process if performed. Not saying it definitely makes it wrong for site-enhancement. But, I don't choose to take the risk personally. For example if the mgf molecules become too heavy/bulky to really get into the muscle cells and do their job, then we've missed the boat completely when it comes to this purpose. For post-workout mgf use, I'll be sticking with regular mgf just to be on the safe side. It's kind of a quirky mental thing, but I want to get the purest form of the drug and as closely related to original, usable form as possible.

Great question! Actually that IS the question and I don't believe I have a "great" answer for you. :) However since we are quoting DatBtrue here, he did say in the prior link I gave:

"...anyway so it seems that you would want to hold the proliferation "gas pedal" down for as long as possible while keeping differentiation factors from acting."

Differentiation is easy to promote. Proliferation isn't.

Another good point. I guess there's a couple schools of thought on this. Part of me wants to go ahead and use regular mgf immediately post workout and then wait just an hour or so before using des. But, I can see all the other points too. The big question for me is what would be most efficient, and I can see by what you've written that we want to keep proliferation going. Hmmm..

The other thing is, if mgf is working, in part, like igf-1, then wouldn't that be potentially putting a halt on the proliferation process even as it begins to occur? We're only going to see part of the mgf actually make it into the cells and the rest just bind to the igf-1 receptor. See what I'm saying?

And, this brings up the whole peg-mgf thing and using it as a substitute for igf1-lr3. Why? Because it is long lasting and will generally act as igf-1 when it binds to receptors in muscle. And, it won't bind to the igf-1 receptors in the gut etc. correct? In fact, I would say a case could be made for injecting regular mgf directly after training and then peg-mgf later as a substitute for igf-1 rh, and definitely a better alternative than igf1-lr3 as I don't really think lr3 acts enough like standard igf-1 rh. Of course, I'd still like to think des igf-1 would be the best choice for an igf-1/causing differentiation etc.

All good stuff! Just thinking out loud...
 

chemicalwarrior

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One more thought: MGF is also produced naturally in the muscles when most types of micro-trauma occur. There were studies done on mice, I believe, where they used a water-based injection containing lambda carageenan that, at the right dose produced the right amount of irritation locally within muscle to induce mgf to be expressed and cause quite a bit of new muscle cells to be formed- a very good amount.

Google "lambda carageenan, injection, mgf" and you'll likely come across some of the info. Pat Arnold used to allude to working on a solution of this for bodybuilders. But, he didn't stress that it was causing mgf production as the main action of growth.

I have a theory that basically with syntherol we are not only stretching the fascia and the muscle just grows. I believe that the irritation is actually in the right range for mgf to be stimulated. This would explain why it only works in an anabolic environment (excess calories and preferably with aas etc.). It's truly not just oil hanging around in the muscle, that wouldn't even make sense. And, it's not all scar tissue, you wouldn't have a functional muscle at the end of a few runs if that was the case. All I can guess is that mgf is being expressed and the increased igf-1 levels from anabolics etc. are helping the process along. We're basically inducing more mgf within the muscle this way than is even possible with other methods imo.

What do you guys think about this? If there is any practical truth to this, then we'd want to somewhat time our injections of syntherol and run des igf-1 at a time that best took advantage of whenever we wanted to have differentiation occcur (after major discomfort had subsided possibly?). In this case proliferation is more or less constant and well timed differentiation would be the main concern. And, I'd think we'd like to take advantage of this at least three times per week or so.

Obviously this is just pure speculation. But, if you think about it, it makes some sense. MGF is best produced during/post workout from heavy eccentric training- which also, not coincidentally, causes the most soreness and micro-trauma. It's not far fetched to think that using syntherol is causing similar micro-trauma within the muscle and stimulating quite a bit of mgf production. This may be the reason occlusion training works for some as well.
 

forklift28

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Ok..a lot of interesting points made.I am not the smartest gut,actually all this stuff is confusing as hell.Here is what I have been doing:
5:30am 40mcg's IGF1 LR3
6:00AM b'fast
7:00am train
7:45am MGF 200mcg's

Now I have DES IGF1 and what I have been doing is waiting anywhere from 6 to 18 hours and injecting 40mcg's of it into the muscles trained.I have heard wait at least 6 hours to 24 to let the MGF "do it's thing",That is a pretty big window and I have been experimenting around on the times.Of course I cannot tell any difference.I also reconstituted the DES IGF1 with BW instead of AA since I am out and also I getting tired of the burn.it seems to be getting worse,lasts for 20 min. I have heard guys say that the DES IGF1 will last 2 weeks and I have heard it can last a month at best in the BW..And I have heard that if it was reconstituted in AA it would last a year or more..to a month..shit is so confusing.But I am paranoid and going to assume it is going to only be good for 3 weeks.What have you guys heard on DES in BW instead of AA?
 

chemicalwarrior

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Ok..a lot of interesting points made.I am not the smartest gut,actually all this stuff is confusing as hell.Here is what I have been doing:
5:30am 40mcg's IGF1 LR3
6:00AM b'fast
7:00am train
7:45am MGF 200mcg's

Now I have DES IGF1 and what I have been doing is waiting anywhere from 6 to 18 hours and injecting 40mcg's of it into the muscles trained.I have heard wait at least 6 hours to 24 to let the MGF "do it's thing",That is a pretty big window and I have been experimenting around on the times.Of course I cannot tell any difference.I also reconstituted the DES IGF1 with BW instead of AA since I am out and also I getting tired of the burn.it seems to be getting worse,lasts for 20 min. I have heard guys say that the DES IGF1 will last 2 weeks and I have heard it can last a month at best in the BW..And I have heard that if it was reconstituted in AA it would last a year or more..to a month..shit is so confusing.But I am paranoid and going to assume it is going to only be good for 3 weeks.What have you guys heard on DES in BW instead of AA?

You could always freeze the individual doses of the des and just use them as needed. Use them as quickly as you can after it thaws. Draw them up into slin pins, stick in the freezer and they last a lot longer that way.
 

forklift28

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You could always freeze the individual doses of the des and just use them as needed. Use them as quickly as you can after it thaws. Draw them up into slin pins, stick in the freezer and they last a lot longer that way.

Damn..I didn't think about that..good idea.I am going to do that.I did that with my first go around with IGF1 LR3 then I heard it lasts a while as long as it is in AA..but thanks for reminding me.
 

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