Dutasteride ( Less side effects than finasteride)

[Black Beard]

To clarify; Trenbolone+Testosterone without fin/dut (so extra DHT) > Trenbolone+Testosterone with fin/dut (less DHT) in terms of hair loss potential. DHT is the absolute most potent AAS for miniaturization of scalp hair. ( that we know of or come across on a regular basis)

 

[Hyperemia]

There's zero evidence or reasoning to think this and even the NPP thing is likely false ( DHN is actually less androgenic than nandrolone, at least the data ive actually looked at)

I’m not saying this is correct, as I said before, it’s just what I read and why I asked the question to begin with. What you wrote is actually the reasoning on the other side. 5-alpha stops the conversion of nandrolone to DHN (the less androgenic compound). Less hormone being converted to DHN, means more of the parent androgenic compound in your system which theoretically would speed up hair loss. This is not about having my cake and eating it too. I was already on the Tren (just finished) and didn’t want to do anything to cause additional hair loss before it’s out of my system. Won’t be using it moving forward.

Dut or fin is something that should be taken year round for best results.

Yes this is the plan, not cycling it. I’m finishing up Tren at the moment and don’t plan on using it or other highly androgenic compounds moving forward. I’ve got a great head of hair still and my only goal is to keep it, I don’t need any regrowth. It’s going to be test or test and eq moving forward. I’m not a competitor so I don’t need the cosmetic effects of the more androgenic compounds.

 

[Hyperemia]

Just to clarify. My comments aren’t disputing what you’re saying, but looking for clarification on what’s being propagated on other sites.

 

[Black Beard]

Just to clarify. My comments aren’t disputing what you’re saying, but looking for clarification on what’s being propagated on other sites.

I know 100% where you were coming from. Sorry if the tone came off as abrassive or dismissive, didnt intent it that way at all.


Yeah, the nandrolone will still be less hair toxic than DHT.

A lot of guys see no hair problems on deca or tren only cycles because they are nuking DHT by fully suppressing testosterone production. (there is "adrenal" androgen production, but its a drop in the bucket compared to testicular/ovarian secretion)

Fun fact: Lower T levels as seen in older men upregulates T to DHT conversion which might be another reason androgenetic alopecia incidence increases with age. (Decrease in IGF-1 also ; one study showed zero response from finasteride for balding in a younger man with very low IGF-1)

Further Clinical Evidence for the Effect of IGF-1 on Hair Growth and Alopecia - PubMed

Observations on the Laron syndrome originally offered the opportunity to explore the effect of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) deficiency on human hair growth and differentiation. According to its expression in the dermal hair papilla, IGF-1 is likely involved in reciprocal signaling. It...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Hyperemia]

I know 100% where you were coming from. Sorry if the tone came off as abrassive or dismissive, didnt intent it that way at all.


Yeah, the nandrolone will still be less hair toxic than DHT.

A lot of guys see no hair problems on deca or tren only cycles because they are nuking DHT by fully suppressing testosterone production. (there is "adrenal" androgen production, but its a drop in the bucket compared to testicular/ovarian secretion)

Fun fact: Lower T levels as seen in older men upregulates T to DHT conversion which might be another reason androgenetic alopecia incidence increases with age. (Decrease in IGF-1 also ; one study showed zero response from finasteride for balding in a younger man with very low IGF-1)

Further Clinical Evidence for the Effect of IGF-1 on Hair Growth and Alopecia - PubMed

Observations on the Laron syndrome originally offered the opportunity to explore the effect of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) deficiency on human hair growth and differentiation. According to its expression in the dermal hair papilla, IGF-1 is likely involved in reciprocal signaling. It...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not at all brother, I just wanted to make sure you understood where I was coming from. I’m learning about this stuff as I go and don’t want to make any decisions before I’ve got a clearer picture.

 

[Black Beard]

Will these drugs work if your like slick bald @Black Beard

Also is the micro needling that helpful?

 

[juggy38]

View attachment 191965

Holy fuck.

That’s crazy. So nuclear option is DHT blockage, RU58841, topical rogaine with microneedling?

I don’t mind being bald, luckily I have a nice shaped dome, and lost tons of hair before I was 22-23.

But it would be cool to have hair again if it doesn’t make me grow boobs or kill my pecker

 

[blackjack]

Holy fuck.

That’s crazy. So nuclear option is DHT blockage, RU58841, topical rogaine with microneedling?

I don’t mind being bald, luckily I have a nice shaped dome, and lost tons of hair before I was 22-23.

But it would be cool to have hair again if it doesn’t make me grow boobs or kill my pecker

It won't...

I think Black Beards analogy of Fina/Duta likening them to AI's like letro is very accurate. Poison is always in the dose as with everything. Fina is extremely effective even when taken at 25% of the dose often prescribed.

 

[Black Beard]

Holy fuck.

That’s crazy. So nuclear option is DHT blockage, RU58841, topical rogaine with microneedling?

I don’t mind being bald, luckily I have a nice shaped dome, and lost tons of hair before I was 22-23.

But it would be cool to have hair again if it doesn’t make me grow boobs or kill my pecker

Nuclear option is primarily oral dutasteride and oral minoxidil. Topicals like RU and nizoral can have a bonus effect. Oral rogaine aka minoxidil is the absolute most potent hair growth inducer known to science and medicine. (much more effective than topical)


There are many effective and highly customizable approaches for male pattern hair loss. You can play around with fina/duta dosages and frequencies ie 0.25 mg fina daily or 0.5 mg duta MWF, and they can also be used topically with good effect in many people.


Like @blackjack said, a therapeutic dose of adex can prevent gyno with minimal to no side effects. The goal with fin/dut is to use enough to prevent or reverse hair loss while minimizing/eliminating sides. Fina and duta are actually more like aromasin, they are actually steroid hormones themselves which grab onto the 5-alpha reductase enzyme like aromasin does with aromatase enzyme.


Many guys get zero side effects on full dose finasteride/dutasteride, but many guys also get bad sides like brain fog, sexual effects, etc on the full dosages.. Studies and clinical experience prove that very low doses of finasteride and dutasteride are very effective at reducing DHT and stopping or reversing hairloss. The more you take, the higher your risk of sides. A lot of these sides are from the fina/dut themselves and not the reduction in DHT.

 

[alfresco]

Nuclear option is primarily oral dutasteride and oral minoxidil. Topicals like RU and nizoral can have a bonus effect. Oral rogaine aka minoxidil is the absolute most potent hair growth inducer known to science and medicine. (much more effective than topical)


There are many effective and highly customizable approaches for male pattern hair loss. You can play around with fina/duta dosages and frequencies ie 0.25 mg fina daily or 0.5 mg duta MWF, and they can also be used topically with good effect in many people.


Like @blackjack said, a therapeutic dose of adex can prevent gyno with minimal to no side effects. The goal with fin/dut is to use enough to prevent or reverse hair loss while minimizing/eliminating sides. Fina and duta are actually more like aromasin, they are actually steroid hormones themselves which grab onto the 5-alpha reductase enzyme like aromasin does with aromatase enzyme.


Many guys get zero side effects on full dose finasteride/dutasteride, but many guys also get bad sides like brain fog, sexual effects, etc on the full dosages.. Studies and clinical experience prove that very low doses of finasteride and dutasteride are very effective at reducing DHT and stopping or reversing hairloss. The more you take, the higher your risk of sides. A lot of these sides are from the fina/dut themselves and not the reduction in DHT.

Serious side effects; 1 in 1000.

Personally, I think all this talk about side effects is just that . . . talk . . . or most likely ‘self talk’.

 

[Black Beard]

Serious side effects; 1 in 1000.

Personally, I think all this talk about side effects is just that . . . talk . . . or most likely ‘self talk’.

The sides are legit, but as you said most guys can take a full dosage of either and have no sides, but many guys have real sides that are not placebo on the full dosages. By using an optimal dosage, that low risk of sides goes down even further.

The interesting thing about finasteride is that there is also a swing of 15-20% from patient to patient IE the average serum reduction is around 70% but some guys only get 50% reduction and others as high 85%. We know you don't have to obliterate DHT levels to see results though, just like E2 doesn't have to be 0 to prevent gyno and high E2 sides.

 

[alfresco]

The sides are legit, but as you said most guys can take a full dosage of either and have no sides, but many guys have real sides that are not placebo on the full dosages. By using an optimal dosage, that low risk of sides goes down even further.

The interesting thing about finasteride is that there is also a swing of 15-20% from patient to patient IE the average serum reduction is around 70% but some guys only get 50% reduction and others as high 85%. We know you don't have to obliterate DHT levels to see results though, just like E2 doesn't have to be 0 to prevent gyno and high E2 sides.

Should have couched this differently.

My bad.

Yes, sides are legit but . . . they may go away or lessen with a reduction in your dosage.

 

[Black Beard]

Should have couched this differently.

My bad.

Yes, sides are legit but . . . they may go away or vanish with a reduction in your dosage.

Sadly, most guys and docs don't know the efficacy and lower side effect risk profile of the lower dosages. In other countries like korea and japan, 0.2 mg finasteride are approved and prescribed regularly.

 

[alfresco]

Sadly, most guys and docs don't know the efficacy and lower side effect risk profile of the lower dosages. In other countries like korea and japan, 0.2 mg finasteride are approved and prescribed regularly.

Yea. I told my doc that I was ‘micro dosing’ (0.25mg ed), he didn’t blink an eye.

 

[sly fox]

Interesting thread. I was on 1mg fina a day and it absolutely killed my wood (even with viagra) and libido. My doc basically was "Ah well, not for you then". About 6 weeks after stopping
I was ok. I changed doc recently and might ask to try dutasteride instead.

 

[Black Beard]

Interesting thread. I was on 1mg fina a day and it absolutely killed my wood (even with viagra) and libido. My doc basically was "Ah well, not for you then". About 6 weeks after stopping
I was ok. I changed doc recently and might ask to try dutasteride instead.

For finasteride: 1 mg daily is brutal for a lot of guys. You may get no sides from 0.25 mg daily or 0.5 mg MWF. Some guys can't even handle 0.5 mg daily, but even that dose is many times less likely than 1 mg to cause any sides. 0.25 mg gives you just about the same exact DHT inhibition as 1 mg daily with a completely different side effect risk profile.


Dutasteride is great for a lot of guys, but the half life is 5 weeks. So it's ideal try to make finasteride work first if possible as fina half life is more like 8-12 hours, so its out of your system fairly quickly. If you can't handle any oral fin/dut, there is also the topical route.


Of course, oral minoxidil is going to be the main driving force if you decide to use it. It's incredibly potent for hair growth.

 

[JMAC 21]

I had a lot of issues on fina. Right now Im trying topical and finding it much much better.

I seem to be very sensitive to minoxidil. It breaks my skin out in rashes. When I switched to oral I broke out in crazy hives. Wondering if there are any alternatives to this. I've seen where some companies will add hydrocortisone to it. I may try that.

 

[Black Beard]

I had a lot of issues on fina. Right now Im trying topical and finding it much much better.

I seem to be very sensitive to minoxidil. It breaks my skin out in rashes. When I switched to oral I broke out in crazy hives. Wondering if there are any alternatives to this. I've seen where some companies will add hydrocortisone to it. I may try that.

How much hair have you lost? If it's early enough or you are a good responder, you might not need minoxidil. Generally, you will see max results from fina/duta between the 1-2 years. Significant results are usually seen around 8-12 month month.


Do you break out in hives right away or after a while from minoxidil?

 

[JMAC 21]

How much hair have you lost? If it's early enough or you are a good responder, you might not need minoxidil. Generally, you will see max results from fina/duta between the 1-2 years. Significant results are usually seen around 8-12 month month.


Do you break out in hives right away or after a while from minoxidil?

It took a few months before I broke out in hives taking it orally.

I've been losing hair for around 10 years, but compared to most, its not a lot. Mainly a receding hair line but it gradually gets worse. If I could maintain at this stage, I'd be happy. Growing hair back is a huge wish, but I have limited expectations.

In addition to topical fina, I started derma rolling, only .5, but I'll move up to 1 - 1.5 in a month or so. I'm also considering trying a LLLT device, my only concern is if the devices you can buy can really match the power of what is used in studies.

 

[Black Beard]

It took a few months before I broke out in hives taking it orally.

I've been losing hair for around 10 years, but compared to most, its not a lot. Mainly a receding hair line but it gradually gets worse. If I could maintain at this stage, I'd be happy. Growing hair back is a huge wish, but I have limited expectations.

In addition to topical fina, I started derma rolling, only .5, but I'll move up to 1 - 1.5 in a month or so. I'm also considering trying a LLLT device, my only concern is if the devices you can buy can really match the power of what is used in studies.

Maintaining is easy. Most guys will instantly stop losing hair as soon as they start. Sometimes you will see extra "shedding" at first, a lot of times, this means hair will grow back thicker.


Regrowing can happen on fina/duta only, but you usually won't see it until +8 months, with gains continuing into 2 years and sometimes past that. Some great responders can see results as soon as 3-6 months.


Oral minoxidil is the ultimate regrowth compound, and you can see drastic results as soon as 2 months in very good responders.


If your hair loss isn't very severe yet and you have patience, you can try microdose fina or duta solo for about a year and see if that gets you the regrowth you need. If you are less patient and/or need to regrow a lot of lost hair, you can start the oral minox with fina/duta from the start. You would see much faster results but you will need both fina/duta + oral minox to maintain what you get.


I'm not a fan of dermarolling just yet, there are lot of positive anecdotes online, but there is risk of making hair worse; improper technique, infections, damage, etc. There isn't as much research on it as duta/minox/fin.


The hairline can be recovered, especially if you still have hair that is just very thin/miniaturized. Slick bald spots are more stubborn to reverse, but not impossible. There's no cookie cutter approach, it depends on your individual situation. You can send me a picture via PM if you want and i can give you my 2 cents on what i would do.


P.S. the fact that it took several months to get hives on oral minoxidil is very good. All you would likely need to do is use a corticosteroid as needed when you get the hives flare up. Example: You take oral minox for 5 months, hives show up, you pop a 20 mg prednisone tablet for 1-3 days. Flare goes away and doesn't come back for another 5 months. You will get little to no side effects from intermittent corticosteroid useage.