hcg w/ nolva at pct or not??

[s.norman]

do i start hcg during last week of cycle or even earlier (2-3 weeks b/f end)?
at what dose do i start? do i inj ed or less? at what dose( been on for 1 year)? do i take nolva exactly at the same time? if not, when do i bring nolva into the picture??

 

[s.norman]

nobody uses hcg to be able to help me???

 

[EDED]

if you chose to use it post cycle

wait until the ester clears or half life of whateve ryou have used clears then start hcg either 500iu e3d or 1000iu e3d for 10 to 14 days,,,,you should take some AI before hand not too much,,,nothing crazy either arimi or aromasin lowest dose possible (you dont want too much e2 suppression and rebound)

like for example Test enanthate, depending on if you tapered down or not, wait 14-21 days start hcg,,,i used to taper down in the end and start 10days since the last shot then start hcg therapy then pct

then 72 hours after your last shot of hcg start SERM clomid 50mg is good, didnt like nolva as PCT,,,,toremifene is good too 60mg

and run SERM for 4-6 weeks

take things non androgen based that will help you recover:

insulin; lower shbg, helps GNRH output (at least in vitro study)

cjc/ghrp6 (GH enough said)

gh (GH obviously)

nettle root (free up test supposedly)

kidney yang increasing herbs (best to see an herablist to get a completely balanced preparation) these supps out there these days put only one sided (herbs must be balanced yin/yang) things, morinda, epimedium, Eucommia, Eurycomia, fenugreek and all that are not balanced when taken as single herbs

sleep/eat/get a massage/ reduce boning and/or masturbation (seriously LOL)

sorry about extra info....

 

[number twelve]

there are a lot of different theories on use of HCG, for starters, i dont think you wanna do it during pct, cause it can suppress your own production of certain hormones. what i would do is use it for a week the week before pct. also might do it for a week during pct. it depends on what compounds u used. I am planning on a test/deca cycle for 15 weeks and someone suggested i use hcg twice a week throughout the whole thing at a low dose...very interesting anyone that can shed any light on this im always looking to learn!

 

[EDED]

#12, just a suggestion,,,get off with test not with deca,,,it will be an easier faster PCT

hcg before pct, hcg during pct, whats the difference? LOL what is PCT? hcg only can be someone's PCT blah blah

HCG will suppress GNRH the master hypothalamus hormone as HCG will act like pituitary hormone LH. your balls will love HCG and steroidogenesis will begin creating casades of all your hormones...not sure about adrenals,,ive read hcg doesnt affect adrenals at all thats why those adrenals also need to be addressed by herbs to have a complete balance of hormones kicking (remember adrenals make test/e/cort and other hormones too)

then after hcg is over you hit SERM,,,HOPEFULLY GNRH will respond fast enough and you will have FSH and LH boost then back to steroidogenesis,,,may take whatever depending on your genes and other factors.

good strategy to me,,,or you could do hcg throughout the cycle, thats good too but like #12 said there are many ways just like a regular cycle.

only your experimenation will be important for YOU...so just try something and improve from there next time

 

[ctoast]

take 1000iu hcg every week starting your third week into your cycle. take 5000iu every 5 days starting ten days after your last shot. do this three times= 15000iu

 

[s.norman]

thanx for the replies guys

 

[number twelve]

#12, just a suggestion,,,get off with test not with deca,,,it will be an easier faster PCT

hcg before pct, hcg during pct, whats the difference? LOL what is PCT? hcg only can be someone's PCT blah blah

HCG will suppress GNRH the master hypothalamus hormone as HCG will act like pituitary hormone LH. your balls will love HCG and steroidogenesis will begin creating casades of all your hormones...not sure about adrenals,,ive read hcg doesnt affect adrenals at all thats why those adrenals also need to be addressed by herbs to have a complete balance of hormones kicking (remember adrenals make test/e/cort and other hormones too)

then after hcg is over you hit SERM,,,HOPEFULLY GNRH will respond fast enough and you will have FSH and LH boost then back to steroidogenesis,,,may take whatever depending on your genes and other factors.

good strategy to me,,,or you could do hcg throughout the cycle, thats good too but like #12 said there are many ways just like a regular cycle.

only your experimenation will be important for YOU...so just try something and improve from there next time

just to make sure i am understanding you, your saying to end the deca a few weeks before i stop test, correct?

 

[PsyT]

take 1000iu hcg every week starting your third week into your cycle. take 5000iu every 5 days starting ten days after your last shot. do this three times= 15000iu

thats a lot of HCG considering that you'll be running it throughout the entire cycle. Wouldn't you be afraid of leydig cell desensitization and a decrease in serum LH levels (long-term)? Your PCT SERM would not be as effective I would guess since your balls would be partially desensitized from those doses.

A more moderate approach is 250ug 2x/week. The halflife of HCG also requires more frequent shots than 1x/week (your test and estrogen levels would bounce up and down through the week with 1x/week shot and give you more sides like acne and bloating).

As far as I understand.

 

[EDED]

PsyT, yeah tahts what im saying you get all kinds of answers, and it was that guys' first post LOL,,,not that number of posts = knowledge but its a bad one to start with lolol his nuts must be highly desensitized to begin with



12, yeah finish deca or any progestin first, at least a month with just test so your cycle ends with body noticing low test, not DHT derivative, orals or progestin wanky stuff....thats from several peeps i have talked to,,good strategy IMO.

 

[KillerStack]

HCG will suppress GNRH the master hypothalamus hormone as HCG will act like pituitary hormone LH.

I'm pretty sure HCG isn't suppressive in itself, in humans. The increased testosterone is suppressive of course.

I don't think SHBG should be lowered either. The higher your free test the more total test is suppressed. Try to increase total test instead. SERMs are ideal, since they increase SHBG, and total test of course. Do a short course of an AI after the SERM is stopped. HCG would be ideal to use immediately after the last steroid shot. That way you can do 2-3 weeks of HCG and then start the SERM once HCG is stopped and the steroids have cleared.

None of this can be proved to be the best method. Just theorizing on my part (and everyone theorizes as to the best PCT in my opinion since data is lacking).

 

[KillerStack]

I'm pretty sure HCG isn't suppressive in itself, in humans. The increased testosterone is suppressive of course.

Remembered these

J Assist Reprod Genet. 1992 Apr;9(2):124-7.

Endogenous luteinizing hormone surges following administration of human chorionic gonadotropin: further evidence for lack of loop feedback in humans.

Nader S, Berkowitz AS.


The existence of inhibitory short- and ultrashort-loop feedback mechanisms for luteinizing hormone (LH), while documented in animals, has been questioned in humans. Since human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) binds to LH receptors but can be distinguished from LH in immunoassays, it is possible to identify LH surges in the face of exogenously administered hCG. The present study demonstrates LH surges at midcycle in normal volunteers and in women undergoing controlled ovarian hyperstimulation, given hCG. This provides further evidence for lack of loop feedback control of LH secretion in humans

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1989 Jul;69(1):170-6.

Inability to demonstrate an ultrashort loop feedback mechanism for luteinizing hormone in humans.

Kyle CV, Griffin J, Jarrett A, Odell WD.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Utah School of Medicine, Salt Lake City 84132.

hCG has biological properties similar to those of LH, but can be measured separately from LH by current radioimmunometric assays. To investigate the possible existence of an autoregulatory mechanism for LH in humans, we compared the basal LH concentrations and the LH response to a GnRH stimulus with and without prior administration of hCG. On two separate occasions, at least 1 week apart, six normal (eugonadal) males and six normal postmenopausal females were given, in random order, either 10,000 IU hCG or saline followed by iv injection of a 200-micrograms bolus of GnRH. Blood samples were then taken 30, 60, 90, 120, 180, 240, and 300 min after GnRH. Serum concentrations of LH and hCG were measured at each time by two monoclonal antibody sandwich assays developed in our laboratory. After exogenous hCG, serum hCG concentrations rose rapidly to 200-500 IU/L (15,000-35,000 pg/mL) in both the men and women, remaining at this high level throughout the study. In the men, sex steroid concentrations did not change in response to the hCG during the 9 study hours. Compared to saline-treated controls, hCG had no significant effect in either men or postmenopausal women on the basal LH concentration or the response to a GnRH bolus, as determined by peak response and area under the LH/time curve between 0-300 min after GnRH. We conclude that an ultrashort loop feedback mechanism for LH on its own secretion does not exist in humans, as assessed by the present protocol.

 

[EDED]

interesting KS,

so why dont i run hcg for PCT instead of SERM?

how much of test spike from HCG will cause you to be 'shutdown' still after gear is all clear lets say a month or two of low HCG?

there is T increase from SERM how come that doesnt cause you to be shutdown ?

i may experiment HCG+SERM protocol in the future

if SERM works by blocking ER when test is negligible,,,why not AI instead of SERM? same thing, low t+ low e = GNRH>LH/FSH activation



SHBG wise,,,i used torem which any SERM will increase SHBG,,,two monthts later after PCT my total T was very high (around high 700s) but free T was low,,meaning high SHBG.

i would keep E low and not worry about free T so much during recovery. OR right after PCT make sure to lower SHBG

shiiit this is getting tricky but the above protocol has worked for me well so im stickin with it,,,as should others if your PCT is great then dont change it

 

[KillerStack]

interesting KS,

so why dont i run hcg for PCT instead of SERM?

how much of test spike from HCG will cause you to be 'shutdown' still after gear is all clear lets say a month or two of low HCG?

there is T increase from SERM how come that doesnt cause you to be shutdown ?

i may experiment HCG+SERM protocol in the future

if SERM works by blocking ER when test is negligible,,,why not AI instead of SERM? same thing, low t+ low e = GNRH>LH/FSH activation



SHBG wise,,,i used torem which any SERM will increase SHBG,,,two monthts later after PCT my total T was very high (around high 700s) but free T was low,,meaning high SHBG.

i would keep E low and not worry about free T so much during recovery. OR right after PCT make sure to lower SHBG

shiiit this is getting tricky but the above protocol has worked for me well so im stickin with it,,,as should others if your PCT is great then dont change it

Here in Sweden there's a doctor doing research and working with anabolic steroid users as part of that research and he prescribes very high HCG dosages for like 3-4 months to restore the HPTA! I think something like 10, 000 to 15, 000 IU a week. So I guess it can work and there's studies showing HCG only can work, contrary to popular belief on these forums. Is it the best way? I don't think so, but like I said hard to prove either way. If testing for the levels of hormones involved in the HPTA was as easy as blood sugar testing we'd get more data quickly but not that many get tested as it is right now. And getting tested when the PCT drugs are still in the system doesn't say much about actual recovery. It just tells us the drugs are working for the time being - but what about say 2 months after stopping them?

SERMs increase test real high but the ER blocking is strong enough to overcome feedback inhibition from the test.

 

[EDED]

thanks for that info, let us know if you hear more about that doctor's protocol please.

i was doing 500 2x ever 3 months but i may try 2500 2 times next round.

was it all in one shot or everyday for one week?



as for your last comment,,,then HCG with non steroidal AI may do the same? again i am not going to try that, just keeping the conversation going LOL

yeah i wish we had an instant T meter like bg kits...