Help coming 'off'

[rocketman414]

I have been ON for 2 years straight at this point. Basically it has been 6 months 'on', followed by 3 months of low dose test, followed by 8 months on, 2 months low test, 5 months ON.

"on" means about 1g test, 400 tren OR 600 deca, occasionally 600 EQ, occasionally 40 mg dbol ED.


I am ready to come off.. I want to have kids some day. I also want to retain as much size as I can.

I was thinking of setting up my post cycle this way:

4 weeks prior to coming off until 4 weeks after PCT: GH 3-4 iu's/ day 5x week

week 1-6 pct clomid @ 50 mg ED
hcg @ 3000 iu first week, 1500 iu second week, 500 iu 3rd week, 250 iu 4th week.

so 14 weeks of GH @ 3-4 iu, 6 weeks clomid @ 50 ED, hcg in tapering doses...

thoughts? i've never used GH but have read it can be used as part of a coming off regimen to retain size while allowing hpta recovery

 

[Rich81]

This is what PCT i do and always recover very well.............

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.
I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.
I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

give that a go bro............

 

[liftalot79]

I Can tell you what I would do.

I have Clomid/Proviron 50mg/50mg in a Capsule i take one day for 4weeks along with 1000iu of HCG. I have never had a Problem.

I have never tried HGH so If you don't have it yet I wouldn't buy it alot I mean alot of guys have done just fine without HGH for their PCT.

 

[gregbrich]

This is what PCT i do and always recover very well.............

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.
I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.
I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

give that a go bro............

x2

 

[oldfella]

With respect......If you are going to come off you are going to come off. It is as simple as that. If you are using anything such as a post cycle then you have not come off! Your test is going to crash no matter what you do. It will take some time for your system to re-regulate itself and start test production again. You can keep most of your gains by training the same way you got your gains and watch your eating like a hawk. But to continue with GH, Clomid, this, that, you are only prolonging the inevitable. The truth is the younger you are the faster your body will try to normalize. If you are older then it may never get back to anywhere near normal. I really do not care what some will say about this next statement..............PCT is just another cycle with a different name. For too many it is false security. All much of this does is ease the pain of lowering test in your body until normal production will resume. If you are going to get off then go and see your GP, tell him what you did and want to do and have regular bloods done so he can help you sort out the train wreck in your endocrine system. That would be better PCT in my book.

 

[rocketman414]

With respect......If you are going to come off you are going to come off. It is as simple as that. If you are using anything such as a post cycle then you have not come off! Your test is going to crash no matter what you do. It will take some time for your system to re-regulate itself and start test production again. You can keep most of your gains by training the same way you got your gains and watch your eating like a hawk. But to continue with GH, Clomid, this, that, you are only prolonging the inevitable. The truth is the younger you are the faster your body will try to normalize. If you are older then it may never get back to anywhere near normal. I really do not care what some will say about this next statement..............PCT is just another cycle with a different name. For too many it is false security. All much of this does is ease the pain of lowering test in your body until normal production will resume. If you are going to get off then go and see your GP, tell him what you did and want to do and have regular bloods done so he can help you sort out the train wreck in your endocrine system. That would be better PCT in my book.

thanks.. i am pretty young. (20's)

 

[bluestrm]

Wow. Is all I can really say to not doing a PCT.

After two years of your HPTA being shutdown, you certainly need to consider a good PCT(which does not negatively effect the HPTA. It does the exact opposite.). Without one, good luck on ever seeing normalcy again! You can seriously be shutdown hard and heavy. Kris, I hope you have a good understanding of the HPTA.
A SERM is almost a no brainer. An AI(like Aromasin)added into the mix is considerable help. HCG is a must! Your testicles had no reason to produce testosterone for 2 years. The signaling process in the testes is null/void. HCG not only mimics LH, but it restores the testes ability to respond to LH.
Vitamin E will aid with the HCG use.

You might even consider a little more complex recovery protocol. By doing nothing, your testosterone levels are down the toilet, and estrogen is the dominant hormone. Keeping gains will be a tough task. And not to mention the mental aspect your hormone levels will play on you. Going that long and heavy with AAS is cause for concern when it comes to considering restoring your natural testosterone production.

 

[cbbjoemama]

my buddy goes HGH as a PCT with awesome results...He also keeps his diet clean but then again he hates taking test i forgot what he uses as a substitue

 

[Newman]

Wow. Is all I can really say to not doing a PCT.

After two years of your HPTA being shutdown, you certainly need to consider a good PCT(which does not negatively effect the HPTA. It does the exact opposite.). Without one, good luck on ever seeing normalcy again! You can seriously be shutdown hard and heavy. Kris, I hope you have a good understanding of the HPTA.
A SERM is almost a no brainer. An AI(like Aromasin)added into the mix is considerable help. HCG is a must! Your testicles had no reason to produce testosterone for 2 years. The signaling process in the testes is null/void. HCG not only mimics LH, but it restores the testes ability to respond to LH.
Vitamin E will aid with the HCG use.

You might even consider a little more complex recovery protocol. By doing nothing, your testosterone levels are down the toilet, and estrogen is the dominant hormone. Keeping gains will be a tough task. And not to mention the mental aspect your hormone levels will play on you. Going that long and heavy with AAS is cause for concern when it comes to considering restoring your natural testosterone production.

I Agree. I see Old Fella's point, the system does need to start producing for itself again, but that's no reason to avoid meds that kickstart the process.

Tapering off the cycle, then tapering off the PCT will make the ride smoother...

 

[bluestrm]

I Agree. I see Old Fella's point, the system does need to start producing for itself again, but that's no reason to avoid meds that kickstart the process.

Tapering off the cycle, then tapering off the PCT will make the ride smoother...

Even with a good PCT, it takes quiet a while for natty production to kick back into full swing. The longer your body stays in an estrogen dominant environment, the worse off it is.

 

[ballennonstop]

I couldn't disagree further with oldfellas "No PCT" approach. With all due respect oldfella, I think this is an ancient way of thinking and there's a plethora of studies proving the benefits of HCG, Clomid, and an AI for PCT.

I think your not to far off with your approach. The only thing I would add (if I was on that long and worried about keeping my gains) would be a low dose of Anavar.

100mg Clomiphene Citrate ED first 3 wks then 50/ed for 3 wks
20mg Oxandrolone ED
10mg Tamoxifen
2000 HCG E3D tapering down 10% each dose
HGH 3ius ED

THIS IS A MEGA PCT WHICH I THINK YOU NEED. You might even want to throw some Teslac in there. The low var dose will help maintain size while still allowing HPTA recovery.

Your young so you'll be fine. I did similar doses for 8-10 months plus and still recovered (at age 22). Just my opinion-far from medical advice...

 

[maldorf]

With respect......If you are going to come off you are going to come off. It is as simple as that. If you are using anything such as a post cycle then you have not come off! Your test is going to crash no matter what you do. It will take some time for your system to re-regulate itself and start test production again. You can keep most of your gains by training the same way you got your gains and watch your eating like a hawk. But to continue with GH, Clomid, this, that, you are only prolonging the inevitable. The truth is the younger you are the faster your body will try to normalize. If you are older then it may never get back to anywhere near normal. I really do not care what some will say about this next statement..............PCT is just another cycle with a different name. For too many it is false security. All much of this does is ease the pain of lowering test in your body until normal production will resume. If you are going to get off then go and see your GP, tell him what you did and want to do and have regular bloods done so he can help you sort out the train wreck in your endocrine system. That would be better PCT in my book.

this is the truth. Personally, depending on how developed you are now, I think you are going to lose quite a bit of what you put on if you stay off for quite a long time. Its just inevitable. See a doc and have them monitor your levels. If after 9-12 months your test doestn come back then you can look into HRT.

 

[maldorf]

I couldn't disagree further with oldfellas "No PCT" approach. With all due respect oldfella, I think this is an ancient way of thinking and there's a plethora of studies proving the benefits of HCG, Clomid, and an AI for PCT.

I think your not to far off with your approach. The only thing I would add (if I was on that long and worried about keeping my gains) would be a low dose of Anavar.

100mg Clomiphene Citrate ED first 3 wks then 50/ed for 3 wks
20mg Oxandrolone ED
10mg Tamoxifen
2000 HCG E3D tapering down 10% each dose
HGH 3ius ED

THIS IS A MEGA PCT WHICH I THINK YOU NEED. You might even want to throw some Teslac in there. The low var dose will help maintain size while still allowing HPTA recovery.

Your young so you'll be fine. I did similar doses for 8-10 months plus and still recovered (at age 22). Just my opinion-far from medical advice...

All PCT does is put off the inevitable. I dont see anything wrong with trying though, and maybe if hes young like you he might retain more but if hes been on for 2 years straight there is going to be a price to pay. You cannot stay on the hormones that long and get off and not pay. Its not possible.

My personal experience after being on like that for nearly 2 years is that my test production never came back. I was 38 yrs old though. Im on HRT now for life.

 

[JM1219]

100mg Clomiphene Citrate ED first 3 wks then 50/ed for 3 wks
20mg Oxandrolone ED
10mg Tamoxifen
2000 HCG E3D tapering down 10% each dose
HGH 3ius ED

THIS IS A MEGA PCT WHICH I THINK YOU NEED. You might even want to throw some Teslac in there. The low var dose will help maintain size while still allowing HPTA recovery.

Your young so you'll be fine. I did similar doses for 8-10 months plus and still recovered (at age 22). Just my opinion-far from medical advice...

Low dose var will shut you down. As low as 10mg over the course of a few weeks can shut a normal person's HPTA down. Also, because he has been shut down for two years doesn't mean he needs a higher dose or multiple SERMs. That's faulty understanding of the endocrine system and how these drugs affect it. It's irrelevant if you've been shut down for two months or twenty years, a regularly dosed PCT will serve it's purpose, and adding multiple compounds that act on the same function will do nothing more but add more stress to his body; tamoxifen alone is quite hepatoxic. Look into toremifene, it's a much better option.

Also, the dose of HCG is about 10X what it needs to be. Read in the articles section on proper HCG usage. 100-500IU E3D is plenty, when people use ridiculous doses of 4000-5000iu weekly it will actually cause recovery to take longer.

 

[bluestrm]

Low dose var will shut you down. As low as 10mg over the course of a few weeks can shut a normal person's HPTA down. Also, because he has been shut down for two years doesn't mean he needs a higher dose or multiple SERMs. That's faulty understanding of the endocrine system and how these drugs affect it. It's irrelevant if you've been shut down for two months or twenty years, a regularly dosed PCT will serve it's purpose, and adding multiple compounds that act on the same function will do nothing more but add more stress to his body; tamoxifen alone is quite hepatoxic. Look into toremifene, it's a much better option.

Also, the dose of HCG is about 10X what it needs to be. Read in the articles section on proper HCG usage. 100-500IU E3D is plenty, when people use ridiculous doses of 4000-5000iu weekly it will actually cause recovery to take longer.

Good post. I agree.

 

[oldfella]

All PCT does is put off the inevitable. I dont see anything wrong with trying though, and maybe if hes young like you he might retain more but if hes been on for 2 years straight there is going to be a price to pay. You cannot stay on the hormones that long and get off and not pay. Its not possible.

My personal experience after being on like that for nearly 2 years is that my test production never came back. I was 38 yrs old though. Im on HRT now for life.

Thanks Mal......its' funny how so many guys come on here and ask what the truth is...........so the truth is told, they do not like what they read and then live in denial. That is why I do not continue to argue the point. It is what it is guys..............The price we pay for what we do. I am not saying that times have not changed and some of this stuff will "ease the pain", fact of the matter is there is going to be the pain of a fucked up endocrine system for the rest of your life. If you are younger then you will weather the storm, if you are older you will be faced with lifetime HRT, plain hard truth. No amount of "PCT" will change this.

 

[bluestrm]

All PCT does is put off the inevitable...

My personal experience after being on like that for nearly 2 years is that my test production never came back. I was 38 yrs old though. Im on HRT now for life.

Did you use a PCT? And by that, I don't mean AAS.
There is a price to pay for using steroids, but it doesn't have to be permanent. The cease in your natural hormonal production can be "re-started" sooner than just waiting. Sometimes just waiting can equal HRT.

 

[bluestrm]

Thanks Mal......its' funny how so many guys come on here and ask what the truth is...........so the truth is told, they do not like what they read and then live in denial. That is why I do not continue to argue the point. It is what it is guys..............The price we pay for what we do. I am not saying that times have not changed and some of this stuff will "ease the pain", fact of the matter is there is going to be the pain of a fucked up endocrine system for the rest of your life. If you are younger then you will weather the storm, if you are older you will be faced with lifetime HRT, plain hard truth. No amount of "PCT" will change this.

The truth is with a proper PCT, not more AAS, your normal hormonal function can and does kick back in. Blood work proves this. PCT was not a marketing ploy to get more money out of steroid using bodybuilders. That would be like saying no matter what you do if you use Tren or Deca, your going to get gyno, and Letro or Prami will not rectify the situation, it will only lessen the inevitable.
I do firmly believe that the older we get using AAS, the more likely it is that normal Test production can become an issue. But by doing nothing at all, your chances of being on HRT skyrocket.

 

[J.Blaze]

With respect to OldFella and Maldorf, I firmly believe that with the use of low dose hcg (250-500iu) during cycle you will have a much smoother transition. 2 years is a fucking long time to be on. Hcg use is going to help your recovery. You are also on the right track with GH for pct. The other things will help as well. Like the others said, talk to your doctor as well just in case.

 

[JM1219]

The truth is with a proper PCT, not more AAS, your normal hormonal function can and does kick back in. Blood work proves this. PCT was not a marketing ploy to get more money out of steroid using bodybuilders. That would be like saying no matter what you do if you use Tren or Deca, your going to get gyno, and Letro or Prami will not rectify the situation, it will only lessen the inevitable.
I do firmly believe that the older we get using AAS, the more likely it is that normal Test production can become an issue. But by doing nothing at all, your chances of being on HRT skyrocket.

Right on, studies have proven this over and over again with many different compounds bodybuilders use in PCT. They take a person from state 'A' to state 'B', from not producing testosterone, to producing testosterone, from copious amounts of estrogen, to very little estrogen, there is no middle ground.

When you come off cycle, your body is in an environment that is totally opposite to what we want; low testosterone, high estrogen, elevated cortisol, possibly blunted IGF expression, etc. If you stop a cycle with no PCT, your body is going to have to drastically change it's current chemistry to reach homeostasis.

Where as if you do a cycle, and run a thorough and proper PCT, your body is primed for normal production and is relatively speaking, much closer to homeostasis than had you not used PCT. This leads to minimal, if any crash at all after cessation of all PCT drugs.

People often give PCT a bad rap, because they've done some cycles, and run what they believed was a proper PCT and still ended up fucked hormonally. When in fact it was more of their failure to plan and research that lead to their jacked up endocrine system. A note for everyone; running Tamoxifen 40/30/20/10 and an AI does not constitute a proper PCT.