Help with T3 / T4

[juicin]

Over the past year I’ve had an overly difficult time staying lean. I’ve been fatigued and unmotivated as well. My first instinct was thyroid suppression from AAS. I’ve ran blood work 2 other times over the summer and my T4 / T3 has always been low. I expirmented with exogenous T3 a couple of times during that period (dosing around 25mcg - 37.5mcg) and within a week or two I experienced fatigue to a level where I couldn’t get out of bed for a few days.

Recently, I’ve come down on a close to TRT level regarding AAS and had some bloods run on my thyroid. How would you guys interpret this? Why is my T3 uptake so high and my T3 so low? My doctor is of no help.

 

[Black Beard]

Over the past year I’ve had an overly difficult time staying lean. I’ve been fatigued and unmotivated as well. My first instinct was thyroid suppression from AAS. I’ve ran blood work 2 other times over the summer and my T4 / T3 has always been low. I expirmented with exogenous T3 a couple of times during that period (dosing around 25mcg - 37.5mcg) and within a week or two I experienced fatigue to a level where I couldn’t get out of bed for a few days.

Recently, I’ve come down on a close to TRT level regarding AAS and had some bloods run on my thyroid. How would you guys interpret this? Why is my T3 uptake so high and my T3 so low? My doctor is of no help. View attachment 184939

You can't run T3 only with good results most of the time. Taking T3 only will suppress both your T4 and T3 production. You need both T4 and T3 for optimal function.

You need to run FREE T3 test.


How many days after taking thyroid hormones did you run blood work?


Do you eat low carb, keto, or carnivore diet? Have you been cutting recently or eating less?

 

[cage99]

What about the rest of your bloodwork? Like lipids, test levels, estrogen/prolactin, DHT, kidney/liver tests, BP?

Cage

 

[juicin]

You can't run T3 only with good results most of the time. Taking T3 only will suppress both your T4 and T3 production. You need both T4 and T3 for optimal function.

You need to run FREE T3 test.


How many days after taking thyroid hormones did you run blood work?


Do you eat low carb, keto, or carnivore diet? Have you been cutting recently or eating less?

The thyroid pannel I just posted, is 2+months after my last summer expieriment with t3/t4. It only lasted a couple weeks because of the fatigue I had expieranced.

yes, t4 was used in addition to t3.
When I say that taking T3 makes me fatigued and in bed it’s because the past two times I have experimented with t3, I have started out first with 100-150mcg of t4, ran that for about a week or two , and then added the t3. After I add the T3 is when I became layed up in bed both times. I don’t know why.

My diet is low carb, high protein, moderate fats. I consume carbs only around training time. Been on this diet for years and never had a problem. Over the summer, I even experimented with increasing calories and eating in excess for a few weeks to try to shock my metabolism. It didn’t work.

To answer your question in general, my diet has not changed recently. I stay on the same diet year round.

I don’t do the bulking/cutting phases any more. I prefer to just stay try to stay lean.

 

[juicin]

What about the rest of your bloodwork? Like lipids, test levels, estrogen/prolactin, DHT, kidney/liver tests, BP?

Cage

Cage

Here are bloods from august, while on heavy AAS. Note that this is also closer to me coming off that short experiment with t3/t4. The first panel I started this post with is 2+ months later, so I would argue that those are the “true” thyroid numbers.

I have genetically high cholesterol and have been on 20mg crestor / day for 15+ years now.

I was surprised to see my estrogen levels as low as they were. But I never was one to ever suffer from estrogenic side effects anyways. Was also taking masteron and primo. I think the hemoglobin / hematocrit number is off. I have bloods from a month prior from this July with my hemoglobin at 17.6. Can post those bloods if you would like also

 

[juicin]

What about the rest of your bloodwork? Like lipids, test levels, estrogen/prolactin, DHT, kidney/liver tests, BP?

Cage

Here are the bloods I was mentioning from July. A month prior. Again, close to my experiment with t4/t3 so the thyroid numbers here should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Black Beard]

The thyroid pannel I just posted, is 2+months after my last summer expieriment with t3/t4. It only lasted a couple weeks because of the fatigue I had expieranced.

yes, t4 was used in addition to t3.
When I say that taking T3 makes me fatigued and in bed it’s because the past two times I have experimented with t3, I have started out first with 100-150mcg of t4, ran that for about a week or two , and then added the t3. After I add the T3 is when I became layed up in bed both times. I don’t know why.

My diet is low carb, high protein, moderate fats. I consume carbs only around training time. Been on this diet for years and never had a problem. Over the summer, I even experimented with increasing calories and eating in excess for a few weeks to try to shock my metabolism. It didn’t work.

To answer your question in general, my diet has not changed recently. I stay on the same diet year round.

I don’t do the bulking/cutting phases any more. I prefer to just stay try to stay lean.

Low carb diets downregulate T3 conversion. That's one reason your T3 is lower.


You need to take T4/levothyroxine for at least 4 weeks before changing dose or drawing blood. it takes at least 4ish weeks to build up (has a bout 7 day half life)


Generally, +25 mcg T3 daily is too much. Your thyroid only makes about 5-8 mcg PER DAY directly and you make about 20ish mcg more from T4 to T3 conversion.


Most patients will need 50-200 mcg T4 and 0-15 mcg T3 daily. Get the Free T4 to about 1.4-1.7 ng/dL first, then add T3 at small dose if you still have symptoms.

 

[aHarness]

Generally, +25 mcg T3 daily is too much. Your thyroid only makes about 5-8 mcg PER DAY directly and you make about 20ish mcg more from T4 to T3 conversion.

Wouldn’t this be assuming 100% bioavailability/absorption though?

 

[juicin]

Low carb diets downregulate T3 conversion. That's one reason your T3 is lower.


You need to take T4/levothyroxine for at least 4 weeks before changing dose or drawing blood. it takes at least 4ish weeks to build up (has a bout 7 day half life)


Generally, +25 mcg T3 daily is too much. Your thyroid only makes about 5-8 mcg PER DAY directly and you make about 20ish mcg more from T4 to T3 conversion.


Most patients will need 50-200 mcg T4 and 0-15 mcg T3 daily. Get the Free T4 to about 1.4-1.7 ng/dL first, then add T3 at small dose if you still have symptoms.

Thanks. So you recommend as of right now T4 only. Should I start at 50mcg/day for 4 weeks and then run bloods again? Or would you start at 100mcg?

Do you have any understanding as to what T3 uptake actually is and why mine is high?

 

[Black Beard]

Wouldn’t this be assuming 100% bioavailability/absorption though?

T4 has about 60-80% oral bioavailability when FASTED. So that's 60-80 mcg per 100 mcg on empty stomach. Drops further with food, coffee, etc.


T3 has near 100% absorption though and can be taken with food without issues.


@juicin Generally, you would start with T4 only because many people only need T4. Once you achieve a true normal Free T4 level, if you have lingering symptoms, a small addition of T3 usually does the job.


50 or 100 mcg are both fine to start with. It's up to you. Re-test in 4 weeks; Free T4, Free T3 and TSH. Skip the T4 the day of the test.

 

[aHarness]

T4 has about 60-80% oral bioavailability when FASTED. So that's 60-80 mcg per 100 mcg on empty stomach. Drops further with food, coffee, etc.


T3 has near 100% absorption though and can be taken with food without issues.


@juicin Generally, you would start with T4 only because many people only need T4. Once you achieve a true normal Free T4 level, if you have lingering symptoms, a small addition of T3 usually does the job.


50 or 100 mcg are both fine to start with. It's up to you. Re-test in 4 weeks; Free T4, Free T3 and TSH. Skip the T4 the day of the test.

Good to know. I thought minerals in food still interfered with T3.

 

[juicin]

T4 has about 60-80% oral bioavailability when FASTED. So that's 60-80 mcg per 100 mcg on empty stomach. Drops further with food, coffee, etc.


T3 has near 100% absorption though and can be taken with food without issues.


@juicin Generally, you would start with T4 only because many people only need T4. Once you achieve a true normal Free T4 level, if you have lingering symptoms, a small addition of T3 usually does the job.


50 or 100 mcg are both fine to start with. It's up to you. Re-test in 4 weeks; Free T4, Free T3 and TSH. Skip the T4 the day of the test.

Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on my T3 uptake being high from the recent pannel - attached again below.

I’ve been trying to research what T3 uptake is, but I can’t quite understand.

 

[Black Beard]

Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on my T3 uptake being high from the recent pannel - attached again below.

I’ve been trying to research what T3 uptake is, but I can’t quite understand.

View attachment 185028

T3 uptake is a useless test.

Get Free T4/ Free T3/ TSH tested only.

You can throw in antibodies test for graves and hashimotos if you want

 

[juicin]

T3 uptake is a useless test.

Get Free T4/ Free T3/ TSH tested only.

You can throw in antibodies test for graves and hashimotos if you want

After a month of working my way up to 150mcg of T4, here are my new results. T4 is up, total T3 is unchanged, actually a bit lower. However my free T3, seems to be in range. The problem is, this is the first time in all 4 labs that I have been able to test free T3. So it makes me think there might have never been a problem, due to the constistant low levels of total T3 I’ve had in each lab. I don’t understand why my total T3 didn’t go up when taking T3.

What do you make of this? Confusing to say the least.

 

[juicin]

After a month of working my way up to 150mcg of T4, here are my new results. T4 is up, total T3 is unchanged, actually a bit lower. However my free T3, seems to be in range. The problem is, this is the first time in all 4 labs that I have been able to test free T3. So it makes me think there might have never been a problem, due to the constistant low levels of total T3 I’ve had in each lab. I don’t understand why my total T3 didn’t go up when taking T3.

What do you make of this? Confusing to say the least. View attachment 187347View attachment 187346View attachment 187345View attachment 187344View attachment 187343View attachment 187342

**** edit on my typo last sentence should read:
“I don’t understand why my total T3 didn’t go up when taking T4”

 

[Black Beard]

After a month of working my way up to 150mcg of T4, here are my new results. T4 is up, total T3 is unchanged, actually a bit lower. However my free T3, seems to be in range. The problem is, this is the first time in all 4 labs that I have been able to test free T3. So it makes me think there might have never been a problem, due to the constistant low levels of total T3 I’ve had in each lab. I don’t understand why my total T3 didn’t go up when taking T3.

What do you make of this? Confusing to say the least. View attachment 187347View attachment 187346View attachment 187345View attachment 187344View attachment 187343View attachment 187342

T3 didnt go up cause the half life is very short, don't worry about that. With T3, you don't really look at the numbers because they fluctuate too much.


You're on 150 mcg T4 and how much T3? Did you take T4 and T3 before the labs or you skipped? Is the T3 UGL or from a pharmacy?

 

[nothuman]

Low carb diets downregulate T3 conversion. That's one reason your T3 is lower.


You need to take T4/levothyroxine for at least 4 weeks before changing dose or drawing blood. it takes at least 4ish weeks to build up (has a bout 7 day half life)


Generally, +25 mcg T3 daily is too much. Your thyroid only makes about 5-8 mcg PER DAY directly and you make about 20ish mcg more from T4 to T3 conversion.


Most patients will need 50-200 mcg T4 and 0-15 mcg T3 daily. Get the Free T4 to about 1.4-1.7 ng/dL first, then add T3 at small dose if you still have symptoms.

sometimes my Free T3 is lower when I’m taking thyroid hormone than when I’m not taking it. Do you know why this is?

 

[aHarness]

sometimes my Free T3 is lower when I’m taking thyroid hormone than when I’m not taking it. Do you know why this is?

Likely just the timing of your dosing and bloodwork

 

[nothuman]

Likely just the timing of your dosing and bloodwork

So to be clear, I shouldn't be worried if the Free T3 on thyroid medication is lower than the Free T3 without thyroid medication? My blood draw was 10 hours after taking my T4

 

[Black Beard]

sometimes my Free T3 is lower when I’m taking thyroid hormone than when I’m not taking it. Do you know why this is?

Yeah, that happens normally.

You mean with T4 solo or with T3? Cause the physiological reasons will be different


T4 solo: Taking T4 only creates a higher than normal T4 to T3 ratio. Your body will 1. stop secreting T3 directly and 2. downregulate conversion/deiodination of T4 to T3 due to lower TSH.


T4+T3 and T3 solo: Body downregulates T4 and T3 secretion and the short half life of T3 makes it appear to be lower than baseline (if you test 12-24 hours after last dose)


The T4 monotherapy T4 to T3 ratio IS unphysiological which creates a lot of debate among endo researchers whether that's good or bad.


If you feel good i wouldnt worry about it too much, however, many patients have subtle deficits if they don't take T3. (Skin/hair quality, energy, cognitive function and even libido).


If you use GH, that will increase T4 to T3 conversion. Have you ever tried using only 5 mcg T3 with your T4?

It can make you flat at first sometimes but the body adjusts after a few weeks.