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IGF-1 INFO- Disappointing

Ballard study (96) Also pulled from DAT's

Growth effects of des( lL3)1GF-I in rats occur
in most tissues, although carcass fat is reduced
and there is a trend for muscle weight to
increase proportionately less than body weight.
The selective increase in gut tissues is particu-
larly striking as it occurs even in diabetes, where
the condition itself stimulates gut growth and
where insulin treatment has the opposite effect.
Responses are demonstrated throughout the
alimentary tract and are accompanied by
improvements in nutrient uptake (Ballard et (II.,
1991b; Read et al., 1991).
 
Research study from DAT's board. Info contained is his knowledge


Potency in vitro does not necessarily correlate with "effect" in vivo. An IGF-1 needs to be capable of binding to a binding protein to have a significant effect (IMO)

We'll use the following study to learn, Insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-binding proteins inhibit the biological activities of IGF-1 and IGF-2 but not des-(1-3)-IGF-1, Marina ROSS, Biochem. J. (1989) 258, 267-272

The title makes des seem very active, but,
Many cell types secrete insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-binding proteins that can be expected to sequester free IGF and modify the biological activities of the growth factors.
So what you have are cells throughout the body and they are surrounded by what is called a matrix which keeps them in place and to some extent limits access to the cell membrane (like mortar between bricks) where the IGF-1 receptor resides.

You also have IGF binding proteins of various types. Depending on the type and on the circumstance they can either increase or decrease eventual IGF-1 activity. When they bind to IGF-1 they preserve its life and render it inactive, for the most part. So bound IGF-1 is simply a complex w/ a longer life potentially and no biological activity.

Now IF this binding occurs near the site where IGF-1 needs to act, such as injured muscle we end up with a complex outside the cells waiting... like a spaceship orbiting (not really but you get the idea). If the cell bound that IGF-1 w/ a binding protein such as IGF binding protein-3 then the IGF-1 will often unbind and be pulled (attracted) to the IGF-1 receptor on the cell membrane. IGF-1 has a greater affinity (attraction) for the IGF-1 receptor then that particular binding protein.

So injured cells can secrete binding protein to trap and hold for use the free IGF-1 that travels by.

But it can also send a binding protein to keep the IGF away... like repellant. Maybe a different binding protein or other factors are involved such as the failure to breakdown the extra-cellular matrix for penetration.
A binding protein purified from bovine kidney (MDBK) cells potently inhibited the ability of IGF-2 to stimulate DNA synthesis or protein accumulation as well as to reduce rates of protein breakdown in chick embryo fibroblasts... Since the chick embryo fibroblasts contain only the type 1 IGF receptor, the MDBK-cell binding protein must have reduced the accessibility of IGF-2 and IGF- 1 to that receptor.
See it repels potentially harmful actions.

But sometimes it repels and decreases activity and other times it attracts and increases activity. See:
Inhibiting effects on both protein breakdown responsiveness to IGF and IGF binding to cell receptors were also observed with human amniotic fluid binding protein... These results contrast with stimulatory responses on different IGF-1 actions of the same binding protein reported previously [Elgin, Busby & Clemmons (1987) Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 84, 3254-3258].
The cell decides... and I have always thought muscle injury and injury in general was an attracting event not a repelling event. I often mused about injecting IGF-1 bound to the IGF Binding Protein-3 which will bind to albumin in plasma into the injured/worked muscle. The size of this complex is too big to leave the area. It is too big to pass through the vessel walls and travel around systemically. It would sit at site and wait to be called to the injured/repairing cell... probably by factors that make travel through the matrix mortar that surrounds cells more easily traversed.

IGF-1 LR3 (altered IGF-1) and Des could not be used as they do not bind to the binding protein and would freely be taken up into the vessels blood streams.

Now des-(1-3)-IGF-1 has an increased potency BECAUSE it pretty much does not bind to binding proteins. It can not be pulled in when the cell wants nor easily repelled.
This increased potency was not associated with a comparable increase in affinity for the type 1 IGF receptor (Ballard et al., 1987, 1988). Instead, des-(1-3)-IGF-1 bound relatively poorly to proteins in media conditioned by the L6 myoblasts used for the bioassays (Bagley et al., 1989) and to a pure binding protein produced by MDBK cells (Szabo et al., 1988). We proposed that the higher potency of des-(1-3)-IGF- 1 was a result of increased concentrations of the free peptide being available for interaction with cell receptors (Szabo et al., 1988).
See that is how they are measuring potency. So in case you missed it, stated again,
The biological potencies of IGF-1, IGF-2 and des-(1-3)-IGF-I correlate inversely with their binding to proteins released into the medium by cells, so that the enhanced potency of des-(1-3)-IGF-1 is a consequence of it not binding to purified binding proteins or those released by cultured cells.
Des has a decreased affinity for the IGF receptor compared to the native ligand IGF-1. IGF-1 LR3 as well. So to be active they must be present in a high enough concentration and hope to bind to receptors where needed. However they are not discriminate.

Now studies in farm animals do show growth from IGF-1, IGF-1 LR3, Des and Insulin. Leaner tissue from the IGFs and more fat gain from insulin. So I am not saying IGFs have no growth value at high doses. I am simply mentioning how Des derives its potency and saying its activity is not targeted to an area.

Ballard study (96) Also pulled from DAT's

Growth effects of des( lL3)1GF-I in rats occur
in most tissues, although carcass fat is reduced
and there is a trend for muscle weight to
increase proportionately less than body weight.
The selective increase in gut tissues is particu-
larly striking as it occurs even in diabetes, where
the condition itself stimulates gut growth and
where insulin treatment has the opposite effect.
Responses are demonstrated throughout the
alimentary tract and are accompanied by
improvements in nutrient uptake (Ballard et (II.,
1991b; Read et al., 1991).



if the potencies of the igf variations are dependent on their affinities for the IGFBPs, then microdosing would prevent gut tissue growth correct? the igf would bind where damage has occured in skeletal muscle and because it is not in excess would not go systemic.

also, how effectively would the ECM prevent the igf from binding to intestinal cells if the igf is allowed to go systemic?

the study also says that the effects of des were apparent longer and subjects experienced hypoglycemia. apparently due to the des concentration being higher in the ECM. so how/where is des broken down?
 
if the potencies of the igf variations are dependent on their affinities for the IGFBPs, then microdosing would prevent gut tissue growth correct?[/B] the igf would bind where damage has occured in skeletal muscle and because it is not in excess would not go systemic.

also, how effectively would the ECM prevent the igf from binding to intestinal cells if the igf is allowed to go systemic?

the study also says that the effects of des were apparent longer and subjects experienced hypoglycemia. apparently due to the des concentration being higher in the ECM. so how/where is des broken down?

I think the best answer you'll hear is maybe, but some of the idea is to not have the excess
 
I think the best answer you'll hear is maybe, but some of the idea is to not have the excess

what would be a proper dosage then? are we still talking micrograms or would one have to go down to nanograms?
 
Wow, there is just so much info on this subject, doses, times, effectiveness. Guys that have threads saying DES is the best , others like this one saying it is junk. Hard to make up your mind, but it's lots of fun. Blessings. Minister.
 
Wow, there is just so much info on this subject, doses, times, effectiveness. Guys that have threads saying DES is the best , others like this one saying it is junk. Hard to make up your mind, but it's lots of fun. Blessings. Minister.

Most of the guys saying it's junk have read studies and haven't even tried it. The people who say it's the best have actually tried it.
 
Most of the guys saying it's junk have read studies and haven't even tried it. The people who say it's the best have actually tried it.

Tried LR3 and DES. Niether did anything for me. Maybe it's like creatine where some people are non-responders. Whatever. Only way to find out is to try it yourself and see.
 
Tried LR3 and DES. Niether did anything for me. Maybe it's like creatine where some people are non-responders. Whatever. Only way to find out is to try it yourself and see.

Exactly, I agree 100%. Try it before you slam it after reading ONE study is what my point was.
 
So I read this study which is disappointing to say the least since I have 5 bottles on the way. The reason Des is the strongest is because it doesn't bind to shit except your gut.

**broken link removed**

I started this thread AFTER I went through a bottle. I was not impressed.

Sorry bro but you contradict yourself. I am done looking at this thread as I am calling your Bullshit. The post you you started your thread with clearly says you have 5 bottles on the way. Why would you buy 5 more bootles if you were not impressed after going through a whole bottle? Damn this is annoying! Look at your threads I just posted above "before" editing them. Whatever.....
 
just wondering what you guys think of this microdosing protocol w/ des.
i work 2 muscle groups a day so each time i inject ill be taking 8 mcgs

pre-wo: 2mcg bilat IM
PWO: ghrp, then later dextrose, protein, and bcaas
2 hrs PWO: 2mcg bilat IM
2.5 hrs PWO: 2mcg bilat IM
3 hrs PWO: 2mcg bilat IM
3.5 hrs PWO: 2mcg bilat IM


so in total i'll still be getting 40 mcgs a day which is around what some of you are taking but hopefully by spreading it out like this, more will be used by the muscle and less will go systemic and if it does go systemic the concentration will still be fairly low. since the half life is so short dosing every 30 mins would be prudent correct?


gonna have to get a lot more slin pins lol
 
Sorry bro but you contradict yourself. I am done looking at this thread as I am calling your Bullshit. The post you you started your thread with clearly says you have 5 bottles on the way. Why would you buy 5 more bootles if you were not impressed after going through a whole bottle? Damn this is annoying! Look at your threads I just posted above "before" editing them. Whatever.....

Ask LMR yourself, the first bottle was a freebie that I got from the first of two orders, order 1 was in the 300's, recieved that, did bottle, next order was in the 1300's which was ordered before the first order came to take advantage of the sale. Still waiting on second order. Real simple. Damn bro, sorry to burst your bubble twice. LOL. And by a newbie at that. LOL
 
you guy's I have to say that I have thought for years that the big guts in bodybuilding are from Igf. Everyuone blamed it on GH but the Igf produced from GH is different. Lr3 has proven to make the gut grow. IGF+ GH + slin would be a great way to build a turtle shell...
 
you guy's I have to say that I have thought for years that the big guts in bodybuilding are from Igf. Everyuone blamed it on GH but the Igf produced from GH is different. Lr3 has proven to make the gut grow. IGF+ GH + slin would be a great way to build a turtle shell...

I agree with you Weight, I think doses have gotten too high, a few years ago guys were only doing 10 mcgs of the stuff, now some guys do as much as 200, insane. Palumbo has a real nice protocol for IGF, he swears by it and it's low dose, I believe he does only 10 mcgs for first 4 weeks and only goes as high as 20, and he stays on for a long time because at these doses receptors don't down regulate , it's pretty interesting, I might try that with next cycle. God bless you. Minister.
 
Ask LMR yourself, the first bottle was a freebie that I got from the first of two orders, order 1 was in the 300's, recieved that, did bottle, next order was in the 1300's which was ordered before the first order came to take advantage of the sale. Still waiting on second order. Real simple. Damn bro, sorry to burst your bubble twice. LOL. And by a newbie at that. LOL

yea bigevil where you at now.
 
I think it's excessive insulin use causing higher visceral fat storage...which is also the last to go...you can appear lean subcutaneously but still have a good amount of visceral fat to lose...Which eventually shrinks the waist. I've used gh/insulin/igf-1 for an extended time while dieting and got lean with striated glutes....using about 8ius a day of humulin.
 
Viceral Fat

I think it's excessive insulin use causing higher visceral fat storage...which is also the last to go...you can appear lean subcutaneously but still have a good amount of visceral fat to lose...Which eventually shrinks the waist. I've used gh/insulin/igf-1 for an extended time while dieting and got lean with striated glutes....using about 8ius a day of humulin.

Plang – I think you're on to something. Is it possible that excessive insulin is causing insulin resistance, which in turn is causing excess visceral fat? I’m wondering if some cases of perma gut may be more visceral fat than enlarged intestines – or both.
 
Plang – I think you're on to something. Is it possible that excessive insulin is causing insulin resistance, which in turn is causing excess visceral fat? I’m wondering if some cases of perma gut may be more visceral fat than enlarged intestines – or both.

I think it's both....for some...if large doses of gh are used for a while organs will enlarge...but I think 70% is visceral fat never dieted off and it keeps accumulating...
 
I think it's both....for some...if large doses of gh are used for a while organs will enlarge...but I think 70% is visceral fat never dieted off and it keeps accumulating...

I agree. There are claims that Jay Cutler brought his waist down. In some pics it does looks tighter - but i'm not sure if its camera/posing angle/holding his breath, etc. But it could be there was some visceral fat in the midsection that was eliminated, giving him a tighter waist.

This does help explain how the perma gut surfaced in BB around the same time insulin was gaining popularity.

For me, i'll just limit my GH intake. :)
 

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